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All right? We're ready for departure. Here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is newly qualified multi engine flight instructor, Jeff Foreman. Congrats on finishing the course and welcome to the show, Jeff.

Yeah, thanks. Great to finally connect. We've been talking about this forever.

Yeah. Before we start, let's go over Jeff's bio. Um, Jeff joined the RCAF in 2012 as a direct entry officer. He graduated from flight training and earned his wings. In 2014, he was posted a four three seven squadron to fly the CC 150 Polaris out of Trenton, Ontario. After his first flying tour and upgrade to aircraft commander, he became the Chief VVIP coordinator, responsible for planning and organizing all high profile dignitary and VIP flights for the unit. After two tours at four three seven. He was recently posted to three Canadian Forces flight training school last summer. He just completed his flight instructor course and is excited to teach the phase three multi engine course. Today we will be focusing on his time flying the Polaris. So, Jeff, we were talking before the interview and you mentioned that you had no experience, you were a direct entry officer, and you actually had a previous career before the forces. Can you tell me more about what that was and how you ended up applying as a pilot?

Uh, yeah, make no mistake about it, I've been looking up at the sky probably since kindergarten, saying, I'd love to do that, telling people I'm going to be a pilot one day. But fast forward to university. I went to Uarloo, took a criminology, legal studies, pre law kind of undergraduate with all the intent of going to law school, but somewhere in fourth year, abandoned. That said, would, uh, rather do a service operator type job. Hands, head, all that stuff. Went to recruiter at the time and, uh, in Waterloo and having no previous flight experience, no hours, no military experience whatsoever, uh, he basically said, yeah, good luck, come back later. Yeah. Um, so kicked dirt for a minute and, uh, got in a car, went on a road trip with a buddy of west. Made it as far as Calgary and, uh, got hooked up at a treatment center for youth and families, mental health, addiction, stuff like that. Large, uh, center. Gave me tons of opportunities. Got trained as a, uh, youth and family counselor. Did that for a few years and then it started to progress, uh, into aftercare treatment. So the youth would come to the treatment center. I would then fly out to wherever they came from or were going to, to work with the families for the transition out of treatment, like for reintegration. Absolutely, yeah. That was a very important piece for us there. And, uh, I was doing, as I said, a lot of flying, a lot of puddle jumper planes going into very small communities. And I remember one day just sitting there going, I want to be doing what they're doing up front. That looks fun, that looks like something I want to do. And I found myself back in a Calgary recruiting office and I just happened to be a musician, I think, working that day, and he's like, well, pilots open, why didn't you check that? I was like, yeah, uh, social worker, intelligence, maybe that's for me. Yeah, but pilots open. Don't you want to be a pilot? I said, Well, I absolutely do, but I was told, you don't have any experience, you don't have any military background. It's like, just put your name down. And if you don't ask, you don't get, which we'll talk later. But it's become a mantra for me that's crazy throughout my career, and, uh, the rest is history. You put your name down and it was just exclusively pilots. All right, I'll waste your money, let's go. And then I'll go back to one of the other jobs that were open, um, but yeah, got in, um, and here we are now.

It all worked out so far.

Yeah, it worked out very well.

Uh, wow, that's very interesting that you would get such different messages. That's actually probably an important thing for listeners to hear is sometimes you do get mixed messages depending on who you're talking to, and it's really important to keep trying. There's no reason that you can't apply. That's a big lesson there.

Right? Yeah. And caveat things have been flow with the forces, too. It was open, but it wasn't open. They weren't hiring. They had their reasons.

That's true.

And, uh, yeah, it's just the resilience of being able to go back at some point and say, you know what, I actually want that, and somebody to actually go, well, you can do that, and I had that opportunity and applied, and here we are.

Yeah, but I think it's really important for people to hear that you can apply off the street, no experience. If the trade is open and you can pass the aptitude test, you can apply.

I am proof positive of that.

There you go. How did you find your flight training experience in the forces?

So I look at the question two ways. One is, uh, how effective was the training? And as we just talked about in hindsight, full circle, being back in Portage, um, you took a, ah, no experience off the street. Guy a little older, getting in, gave him an opportunity, wings on his chest, to go fly multimillion dollar aircraft missions around the world using a camp force. One call sign, a Royals, one call sign. And here I am, back teaching flight itself. So I mean, the effectiveness of the training is second to none. And then my phase training itself, uh, pre wings, phase One bit, uh, of a gut check. Because call it the end of some dark ages, just with training plans and I think you've talked about it before.

Was that kind of back in the day where it was more of a weeding out process?

Exactly, yeah. And that's changed remarkably. Um, so we started with ten or 15, and I think only four or five of us made it through. And you're sitting there going, holy cow, this is tough. Yeah.

And I'll say uh, as well, for anyone who's just checking out the show, listen to our episode on Phase One as to how that has changed. Because that's not the case anymore.

No. At the end of the day, I enjoyed my time on Phase One. Regardless. I uh, was so hyper focused, my fiance wife now had to look after. There's no opportunity to go out and do something else. I had to do this. So that really kept me focused. But yeah, you see a lot of friends not make it. How did I get through phase two? I did phase two. Portage. And at the time I was doing ojt on the job training in Edmonton at uh, 408. Had a posting message for Moosejaw for the Harvard. I did all the Aois and red pages. I was ready, I was ready to go. Um, and then about a day or two before they called and said, bypass Moosejaw, you have to go to Portage, do your Phase Two. I don't know, aircraft serviceability, uh, backed up. I don't know what the case was, but uh, I remember really kicking dirt about that. But uh, when I pulled into Portage, they set my wife up housing, uh, in Winnipeg. I was on TV the whole time. I realized that all my friends that I was doing flight training with got the same call. So now I'm with them.

So you're with your buddies?

Absolutely. Uh, and then you already know all the blue suitors that run the program and uh, you already know the plane. So let's just get right into the flying. And really, I had a great time on phase two. It was terribly stressful, as they all are, but uh, having all that support and being close to home and uh, it was awesome. And I was able to do it in half the time because I wasn't um, set back by delays or serviceability or whatever the case was happening in Mousse at the time. So great experience on phase two. Phase Three was super quick as it is kind of now. So I don't remember much.

Yeah, Phase Three is pretty quick and dirty.

Yeah, I remember failing the eht, um, for just something so stupid or minor. I can't remember what it was. But uh, you just get back into it and that was dumb. And you just shake it off and get into the next thing, uh, like you do in flight training, hopefully. And you get the wings on your chest and you go, yeah, I made it. Only to realize now you're going to the Otu and bottom of the pile. The learning never stops.

Yeah. Did you have any other setbacks aside.

From the eht, not, uh, that I can remember. Phase one and two, I think maybe the odd flight you Marge or you fail or get an Ed, but uh, it was ten years ago.

Did you have any specific uh, methods that you use to deal with the stress?

Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, chair flying always comes up. I, uh, was the guy sitting in the bathtub with the curtain closed, uh, with my Paper Tiger, the layout of the cockpit.

A Paper Tiger is a poster featuring an accurate layout of the cockpit, including all switches that students can use to practice their checklists and memorize the cockpit layout as well.

As for chair flying, pretending to push buttons, I found the best technique was fly the mission A to Z. Don't get distracted by their things. In, uh, the second year, you start talking to yourself about something unrelated to how that mission would flow. No, stop. Start again from brief, take off and keep going until you are able to do it. And then when you're in the plane, it's just that muscle memory, brain memory of uh, being able to fly that mission.

It's very interesting to hear you say that. That's exactly how I did it. And I got that advice from a fairly senior pilot. I was, uh, Ojt at 400 Squadron in Borden and one of the officers there that I was working for, he said, you're going to have to chair fly. I want you to picture yourself walking up to the plane before you get in the chair. I want you to pre flight the chair like you would the cockpit. And if anything goes wrong, start again. Mhm and I took that advice very seriously and I strongly credit that style of chair flying to the success that I enjoyed on those courses.

Yeah, I remember, you'd hear your phone buzz, you get distracted, okay, session, uh, and you go back no, you just interrupted your A to Z planning of this trip or how you visualize it. So go back right to the beginning of your brief in the room, to your walkout, to your flight, to your maneuvers, all that stuff.

Yeah, that's a great method, I strongly recommend it. So once you finish your phase training, selection time comes and you end up posted on the Polaris. Was that what you had asked for?

Absolutely. So phase two is when you get selected multi engine or rotary. We had a good even split on who wanted rotary, who wanted multi, so got lucky there. I wanted multi, but I would have been perfectly happy flying Hilos as well. Uh, the opportunity was you work jobs in your past and you understand how nice it is to just have this career. And then phase three selection, uh, time came around and I go back to recruiting where if you don't ask, you don't get. You try to do the math. I remember the phase three student while that course just had a Challenger guy and that guy went Airbus and I just went back to if I don't put it number one, then I'm not going to get what's the worst that can happen? I had my list, but it was number one on my list and came up. I was surprised myself and uh, it's exactly what I wanted.

Once you got there, how did you guys find Trenton?

So I'm from Ontario, um, and it was nice after going away for basic training all through our time in Calgary, Ojt in Edmonton, um, and then it was nice to finally come back to Ontario, closer to family. Not that close, but closer. And then to be able to talk with them about what I've been up to the last two, three years because kind of an arm's length and this stuff doesn't nobody in my family is a pilot or in the military. So it was nice to be able to start including them into my career and uh, what I've been up to the last few years. But Trenton itself beautiful. The fishing, the outdoors, the accessibility to big cities, cottage country, all that stuff, it just fit the bill for us perfectly. Yeah.

And the county is a beautiful area.

100%.

Going out on the island is absolutely gorgeous. I was in Air Cadets when I was younger, so I did my glider training at, uh, Pickton and Mountain View. So I'm fairly familiar with the area and beautiful place with some really great memories for me. So that's great that you guys enjoyed that. So probably a lot of people don't know everything that you guys do. What exactly does the players do? Because you guys have a fairly wide mission set.

Absolutely. So uh, it falls under air mobility. It's a multi role airplane, uh, wide body jet. We do strategic airlift, air to air refueling, of course, VIP travel, medevax, cargo. But primarily we take a large amount of people farther away places. So five aircraft in the fleet, five and four are the air to air refuelers. Basically a flying gas tank in the sky to refuel fighter jets airborne so that they can stay up in the air and do what they have to do. Two and three are the aircraft that are just regular passenger aircraft similar to commercial airplanes that you're getting on today. And then one is a passenger aircraft, but also has a stateroom. And that's the fancy one that we dress up for VIP flights at Fable. But we can use that, uh, all the same for passenger travel.

So fairly flexible in terms of how the various aircraft are used, aside from the ones that are set up for air to air?

Absolutely. Air to air is, uh, four and five.

That's just strictly air to air.

Exactly.

You mentioned that one of the biggest things you folks do is move lots of people from A to B. So is that the most common tasking that you get?

Absolutely, yeah. Primarily it's passenger transport, taking people to deployments redeployments and training around the world.

That's interesting, because for some reason, in my head, I had it mostly air to air refueling and mostly VIP. So that's interesting that it's also largely moving larger groups of people. Which makes more sense, though. It's a larger aircraft. It's what it's designed for initially. Right?

Yeah. And VIP falls under moving people to places as well. Uh, but a third, maybe equal third for each type of tasking. Okay. Um, air to air, it's its own thing.

Speaking of VIP, what dictates if a VIP takes a Challenger or a Polaris? Because we have the Challenger fleet as well for VIP transport.

Right? Yeah. So the Challenger or smaller business jet type aircraft, uh, out of Ottawa, they're more for the short trips, the business trips, uh, the small delegations. The Airbus itself, obviously a much larger aircraft. Uh, we go larger distances, go to the larger summits, and when they have larger delegations, uh, that need to go to these summits or these, uh, conferences, they need the Airbus for that. The process itself, as to how it gets decided is above me through the Request for Effect RFE process. But, uh, typically the officials let us know which aircraft they're looking to use. But think of the Challenger as kind of the shorter business trips and where the big kind of the summits, big delegations. Okay.

If you wanted to compare it in your head to an airliner, the Airbus would be like more of your long haul, and the Challenger would be more of your regional jet, shorter hops type, uh, taskings.

Yeah, I think the Challenger can still fly around the world all the same.

Okay.

Um, but it's, uh, maybe the delegation size or the footprint that they're looking to use for the need.

Well, for that, we'll have to, I guess, wait until I do the, uh, Challenger interview to clarify that. What's the training and upgrade process like on the Polaris?

Pretty intense. So you get your wings out of portage, you're flying a King Air, you go right to the Otu, which is run by four two six in Trenton, separate from four three seven. It's about three months. There a month of in the book Cbts lectures and tests that comes with any training. And then you go to Germany for just under a month. Uh, that's where we do all of our simulator training. There aren't too many A 310 simulators in the world, so we, uh, would go to Germany and use Lufthansa's, a 310 simulator. They throw everything at you there. Steep learning curve, going from a King Air to a wide body jet.

Does that mean that for any kind of annual simulator training, you guys have to go to Germany?

Correct. Okay. So twice a year, um, we would go and use those sims. And those contracts change all the time, but okay, uh, my time there, yeah, you go to Germany three days, um, just to get all your emergency training done. After that, you do about three flights. You do your IRT, your instrument rating test. Now you're good to fly with some local trainers. Uh, and then you do a North America trainer. So you can go anywhere north America. And then you do an international trainer. Um, and I mean, again, pretty, I wouldn't say intense, but large, ah, scale, uh, opening your eyes to what's out there in the world and how.

It's a big change, it's a big step.

Yeah. My international trainer was Trenton to Scotland. That's four or five time zones back to Halifax. We got tasked with a mission because when you're on the Otu, you can still get tasked for an actual mission to fly, um, back to Victoria, to Hawaii. So, I mean, we crossed, wow, we crossed, uh, a lot of time zones back. And that's kind of your introduction to polaris operations, really.

Yeah. Ah, I mean, it's twelve or 13 time zones from Scotland, uh, to Hawaii.

Absolutely.

That's wild.

Yeah. So you pass the Otu and then you go to Squadron as a First Officer, level One. And that's just greenhorn. You're just getting familiar with the plane ops. You're into missions right away, you're doing it. And then Fo Two, widely considered best job in the Air Force. You're Compton on the airplane. You're just soaking up that experience, getting ready for your upgrade. Your aircraft commander, which we call the First Officer. Three. The Acting aircraft commanders. So, yeah, so Fo Two, that's about a year, two years, and, uh, that's just living the life, getting soaking it all up. First three, that's our acting aircraft commander. So you assume the left seat, you assume all the roles of an aircraft commander with an IP or standard sky flying in the jump seat, uh, giving you all the tips and advice and watching you sweat through all the scenarios that, uh, you might have go through your Acting Aircraft commander, um, Fo Three. And then you do your check ride for aircraft Commander, which just falls on whatever the next trip at the squadron is, as long as it's got an oceanic crossing, uh, and overnight, and some passengers or some logistics that you have to be able to manage, prove that.

You'Ve got the chops to take on a real.

Absolutely. So the air to air side is a different, uh, side of house. So you do your tanker commander upgrades, your trail commander upgrades that's done separately, but also can be in conjunction with.

Okay, so the air to air side is a whole other set of qualifications.

Yes. Air to air side is definitely different side of house and uh, separate from your kind of first Officer level one up to your aircraft commander upgrade. And then you can get all the air to air qualifications on top of that.

And I think you were saying before when we were chatting that air to air is kind of, uh, trial by fire, depending on the situation. And didn't you say that, uh, for you, you got your calls, uh, over Iraq?

So my introduction, I got the squadron, finished my Otu, and we were right in the middle of Op impact at the time. Um, so my first air to air flight was an actual combat mission. Whereas when the operation is now over, we're not actively engaged in operation, we're doing training beggarville, Cold Lake, um, or wherever we need to go, uh, where the jets are. But uh, for me, you're right.

Were both of the refuelers at the time in the Middle East then?

Uh, no, only one at a time.

Okay.

Um, one back home getting service for the maintenance tagger. Yeah, my first, uh, combat mission was also my first air to air mission. I mean, you're getting your handheld initially, but uh, very quickly, just like all things Airbus, the learning curve is very steep and proficiency needs to be there very quickly. Uh, then you get checked out and then you're off doing your missions.

I like what you said about Fo Two being like the best job in the Air Force, because it is true that being a senior Fo is such a comfortable place to be very, you know what you're doing, you know how to fly the plane. You're maybe occasionally taking on some acting tasks and stuff, so you're getting some practice in, but there's no real pressure yet.

No, you don't have to make any decisions.

Uh, you're just absorbing the mentorship and watching the senior person do their thing.

Let them sweat it out. And then you quickly find yourself in the hot seat going, oh boy. Uh, but you do realize, I remember maybe my second or third acting AC and they give you a newer first officer to fly with so that they can, um, see you training and evaluating and developing, um, the next guy in line. They want to see that, uh, and you realize you actually do know, you do know your stuff.

Yeah, it's an effective process.

Very, uh, effective process.

Yeah, I was going to ask that, you mentioned that as an Fo Three, you're the acting AC, so that's a lot of jargon there. So First Officer three, you're the acting aircraft commander. So are you flying left seat, then.

You'Re flying left seat, and you have an Fo level two typically, um, sitting in your right seat.

Okay. So it's two FOS flying the plane?

Essentially, yeah.

Is that including landing and takeoff, everything?

Yeah. Okay. And then yeah, the standards are instructor pilot is sitting in the jump seat with their little clipboard and red, uh, pen, evaluating, uh, everything the two of you are doing.

But you're not signing for aircraft or anything at that point?

No. That's the actual aircraft commander who would be your IP or standards officer.

Okay. Yeah, that's just some pilot, um, logistics.

Yeah.

A bit complex, but very, uh, interesting. I really like that. That really puts you in a position of authority and responsibility as an acting aircraft commander, which I think is really cool. What does a normal day look like at four three seven squadron?

It's busy. It's a small, uh, unit. Five aircraft only, uh, three passenger airplanes, and everybody wants to use us to go where they need to go. So, starting with that, uh, you're always on the road. If you're not on the road, you're doing your monthly quarterly trainers, you're getting your crew rest after, uh, a few days a week away, or you're prepping for your next mission. So, I mean, aircraft commanders and crews in the military, we do it all ourselves. No two missions are usually the same. We don't go to the same places. So you're working out diplomatic, uh, clearances, your crew day, your itin time, your airport recky, open, close runway lengths, all your told data, all that stuff. Uh, making sure your pubs are there.

Airport recky or reconnaissance is the process of getting to know the airport you will be flying in and out of and is an essential part of preparation, told or takeoff and landing distance represents essential performance calculations that must be done before you fly into an airport. Finally, pubs means publications or flying publications and represents a collective term for all the documents you need before you fly into any airport or airspace.

We have large crews, um, sometimes up to 20 people on a crew, make sure everybody is doing what they need to do, fuel stops if required. And of course, VIP adds a whole nother challenge, uh, to that flying, which just requires a lot more spit and polish, uh, for those missions, it's busy. You're always on the go. I'd say you're always either resting, taking advantage of the family time, or you're on the road doing the missions.

I was going to ask how many days a week you would expect to fly, but it sounds like, given the nature of what you folks do there, it's more like you're away for a chunk of time and home for a chunk of time. Is it typically like that, or do you guys do daily trainers sometimes, too?

Not necessarily. You have to get, uh, your maybe three trainers in and a quarter, and that's hard to weave in with all the operational missions that have to happen.

So you guys are largely doing operational flying for the most part, and training on operational flying.

Yeah. I mean, you have to get the training done. Of course you have to do it, but the challenge is always, uh, when the needs exceed the availability and time that people either have or are needed elsewhere. But, uh, it's just the busy nature and the dynamic nature of flying in the military, too. Op impact at the time, typically, you go away for two, three months. Uh, my longest, uh, stretch of not sleeping in my own bed was about 200 nights in a year. I didn't sleep in my own bed, but that was during op impact. But when that ramped down at, uh, far less, uh, the average trip is about maybe three to five days, but depending on you can get retast halfway through your trip, and that will add time on. So three to five days, up to a week. And then you come home, crew rest for two or three days, do a trainer out the door the next day to do it all over again.

So what do you think? You folks are typically away for a year, about a third of the time.

Hard to put a number to it, but I don't know, maybe at least a week or two a month, probably.

Yeah.

That's a lot combined time.

Yeah. Air Mob is very busy, though I suspect we'll hear similar numbers from the J model folks.

Uh, Jay's, Globe, Masters, Challenger would probably all be the same.

What was the hardest part of the job when you first started?

Like we talked about, just the sheer scale change. You get your wings flying a C 90 turboprop plane, going to a wide body jet, flying globally around the world. You go from having a helmet fire flying in an Ils in Dolphin, Manitoba, and now you are going into Heathrow or Dubai with 180 passengers on a 350,000 pound plane. Uh, the scale change is massive, super busy airspace. Yeah. And it's a big step, and I think that was probably the hardest thing, um, and continues to be. And the Otu is more or less set up as a conversion course as well. And nobody holds your hand. Uh, you're expected to know how to fly to every continent and across each ocean and know all the procedures, local rules that all apply around the world. So it's a very steep learning curve and not a lot of time to get a grasp on it before you're out the door. Flying missions. Yeah.

Do you think that's where most pilots tend to struggle on the Polaris initially.

In pilot terms, when you go to a big airplane? Uh, energy management.

In flying, energy management refers to the need to manage the aircraft's rate of descent and speed through the use of attitude and power. This skill takes time to learn and requires attention and anticipation. It also changes based on the size of the aircraft and the conditions. Of the day, whether you're flying a turboprop or a turbine engine also plays a large role.

You put the throttles to idle in the Airbus and it doesn't slow down. You do that in a Herc or a C 90, uh, you can feel it in your body when you don't.

Have the prop slowing it down.

So energy management is always a big one. Automation that'll follow you from phase three is where we start teaching it, uh, in busy airspace, uh, and then it's systems. This is a big airplane with lots of systems on it, uh, that requires a lot of systems knowledge. And then uh, global operations, knowing how to fly the Atlantic, the Pacific, going into Africa, going into Europe, going in the Middle East. They all have different rules and nuances and publications uh, that require you to know how to do it.

Yeah, I remember that was one of the biggest challenges. When you'd find out that you're going to a new place, you got to go down to the pubs room and start digging around in all the different publications on that part of the world. And you start reading through the rules of the airspace and you think, holy cow. Especially for the UK, for example. I would typically find their levels of service fairly confusing at first, mhm, and uh, it really takes some diligent studying before you start to feel comfortable.

Yeah. And Africa has its nuances and then you go to Japan or China, everything's in meters over there. So now just things like that. Pacific has different rules and Vice, the Atlantic Ocean crossings and those are 3ft stack of pubs right there that you have to read for each mission that you might have for those locations.

Normally I ask somebody after I ask them what's typically the biggest challenge I would ask and how can pilots overcome that? It sounds like the only way to overcome these challenges is experience and practice as well as a lot of studying.

Yeah, going back to that chair flying, run through the mission in your head several times if you have the time. Um, but really never stop with the knowledge and the learning and the pubs and the books and just absorbing that company knowledge from the people who are helping you, or training or the uh, old dogs on the unit that uh, you can just sponge everything up. Uh, absolutely the best way to do it. And then also, again, trial by fire. You go and do it, take really good notes and at some point come back around to it and uh, reread them, organize them, so that when you get that same mission again, you'll be ten times more competent having done it.

Yeah, I had a really good friend of mine on the Aurora who would, after every day, he would sit down and write down the things he learned that day. And then at the end of the trip, he would take the ones that he thought were the ones that would carry over, that he should review, and he would write a list, and then he would have notes based on various places we've flown. And I never had the discipline to do that, but I think it is, I would guess, about as useful as chair flying.

I still do that. I have pages and pages and online references that I've made for myself and just gen that I've made for you get this trip and I always go back and review it. Um, second of chair flying, making yourself a really and being like you said, the discipline of doing it uh, really helps. Doesn't uh, always work out for you but uh to remember or just you're so busy or you don't want to but uh if you can always reference something or learn from your own mistakes or that company knowledge again, somebody who's told you or seek uh, somebody out that has done this trip. That's how we operate as a whole. The forces pass that information around. Yeah, because everything is so dynamic. Like I said, we don't do the same mission twice. Really? It's not a canned A to B.

Well, especially on your fleet.

Especially on our fleet. Uh yeah.

Air mob is all about reacting to the needs of other people and those needs are always going to be changing. The places might be the same sometimes, but it's a big world. You guys are going all over it to do all kinds of different things.

Absolutely. Cargo can stay stationary on a plane too. But people have to be where they have to be. And that's kind of a way to get in an air mobility mindset for passenger travel. You can't just let them sit in a plane overnight or get diverted somewhere. That's right. Uh, retest because they have to be where they need to go.

Yeah, I guess flying with a plane full of people is a unique challenge that most other fleets don't deal with. I mean, I suppose airmob in general would deal with it, but a lot of us don't. Let's say you do get diverted. Who takes care of the accommodations and arrangements for all the passengers?

So it depends on the mission. If they have their orders, then usually their unit or the mission itself pays for those things. But if they are part of your crew or whatever, then you uh, have to look after them. That's a challenge itself. That despite who pays for what or how that gets worked out, you are still responsible for making sure these people get to where they need to go back to the plane. Uh, very rarely do we ever divert anyways. But uh those are things as an aircraft man or players, you have to be thinking of, uh, I think about Christmas flights where the weather is always bad and uh you've got all these families that were trying to desperately get home for Christmases and uh, give them a flight to where they need to go. Um, and if you get sucked in with weather, typically they're on their own, but it's still up to you to work out the logistics of how to get back to the plane. When are we going to take off again? Crew rest for the crew if an airport opens or closes, those are challenges. And yeah, with people, you can't just leave them in place. You have to be able to look after them. We're not talking a crew of six people, we're talking uh, maybe an army deployment of 160 people in, uh, the back of the plane. Typically they do look after themselves, but uh, in terms of the aircraft and getting them back on the plane or getting them, you have to get them to their destination.

I hadn't thought of that until you mentioned it. But that's always one of the challenges, even with a crew is just, we call it herding cats, right. Making sure everybody is where they need to be. Then uh oh, unexpected diversion. Okay, I got to think about accommodations, I got to communicate this back to HQ. I have to do all these different things. And then the last thing you got to remember to do is, hey everybody, you need to be at this place at this time tomorrow so that we can actually still do the mission.

Mhm, I found the crew is always, uh, that was a non factor. The professionalism out of the Airbus crews, they always knew, uh, it's kind of the meat and potatoes of us anyway. No mission that leaves Trenton really ever was a clean A to B flight, uh, without anything in the middle that happened. So ah, we were always well prepared for uh, how dynamic things would get on these trips.

So something very interesting about the Polaris that I actually had not heard before is that the Polaris can be flown as a hospital aircraft. Can you tell us a little more about how that works?

Yeah, so if the need arises for any aeromedical issue, typically we only got ambulatory patients so people that were stable and we could fly them back home. We would deploy the aeromedical evacuation team as part of our crew. Absolutely. Super professional group. I loved working with them. They are the most switched on team in the Cap that I've probably worked with. You see them training and working and they know the aircraft. They are just as much a crew member as our loadmaster pilots. Uh, they know the planes, they work the Polaris, the Challenger, the Chinook.

I was going to ask if they were specific to your aircraft or would that be the same team that, for example, Jackie would work with on the Chinook?

Not 100% sure it's the same group of folks, but I'm pretty confident, uh, they're qualified on whatever aircraft because they're always training, they're always training on our aircraft. They'd always be asking to look at training on different aircraft. And that's where I say the professionalism. This is a team of people you want to bring you home hands down. But, uh, any aircraft we could use as an air medical evacuation, two had some medical beds in it that you could put oxygen and you could set up as, uh, if things got real bad. That, uh, it's a team of doctors, nurses, Pas, um, and medics that, uh, would fly with us and just get these people home to where they need to go. But, um, like I say, normally the patients are typically ambulatory and don't need we're not doing surgery in the air, but they are probably qualified to do that. Wow. Um, yeah, uh, I loved working with them.

That's just really interesting. I had no idea that the Airbus was part of that system. So that's very cool. What's the craziest situation you've ever found yourself in on the Polaris?

Most of the good ones, not for public consumption. Anecdotally air mobility has its own stresses and challenges, and it's just always problem solving. Problem solving. And as you know, with upgrade processes, uh, there's usually a pre check ride, squadron check ride. The squadron wants to make sure you're good to go, and then you do an outside check ride for your AC. And typically it should dwindle off and be a non factor. You've done it, you've seen it. But leading up to my aircraft commander upgrade my pre check ride. We're in, uh, Eastern Europe. Deployment of folks in we overnight, the weather was getting really bad and the one runway was very restrictive if it got wet, uh, climb gradient, stuff like that, with our weights that were leaving. So we're like, uh, we hope we don't get that because we either have to make a fuel stop or figure out a way to reduce weight or get home more efficiently. Sure enough, the next morning it was the runway we didn't want and it was raining, so we had all that to contend with. And, uh, then we lost one of our air conditioning packs, uh, which also helps with pressurization. It was a backup one, but in terms of the Mels, we were able to fly the mission home, but, uh, we had to include a fuel stop and take a blue spruce route.

Can you explain what an Mel is?

Minimum equipment list. So we look at the Big Book if something failed, and it tells us basically a big picture if we can fly or not. And if there's a restriction to that, flying perfect. If we lose a backup pressurization system, we still have the main one that we can use. But now the restriction is we have to be within an hour of an airport at all times flying. And the blue spruce route, of course, keeps us, uh, within an hour. But we have to go over the top of the earth there and make sure places like Iceland, tule, what is.

The blue spruce route? I haven't heard that term before. Is that the route that keeps you in, uh, VHF comms the whole way across?

Essentially, yes. And it keeps you an hour within an airport.

Okay.

Um, so that if you had to land, uh, you're within an hour. So, um, that's how people used to cross the ocean before, um, Etops. And all that stuff was a thing.

Etops, or extended range Twin Engine operation performance standards are a special set of rules under which twin engine aircraft can cross directly over the ocean under certain conditions.

And so this restriction, basically, if we were to lose pressurization, we don't know if our backup one was going to work. So we had to take this over the top of the earth route. But we also had to make sure that, uh, Keflavic and Tule and all these places were open for business because they have to legally be open for us to fly this. So the first, uh, officer, he's working on all that, getting the route changed, and then a loadmaster came up and he's like, jeff, you're not going to believe this. I was like, uh, just deal with it, we're busy up here. And of course, like I said on acting ACS, you've got this checker who just thrives off this stuff. He loves what's he going to do, how is he going to solve this scenario, how is he going to delegate these tasks and, uh, manage this? So I was working on all the performance stuff, fo was working on the route changes. We knew we needed a fuel stop as well. Gander or Greenwood or something, I can't remember. Halifax, uh, which has its own share of burdens because large jet, bunch of army people clearing customs, stuff like that, all becomes a thing. And then large amounts of fuel and services that might be required. So he's working on all that and the loadmaster is like, yeah, you're not going to believe this. Uh, we've got a guy in the back here that I don't know what's going on, you need to come look. And I guess, uh, he had taken some medication that rendered him more or less incapacitated, um, which it took some investigating, but he was actually authorized to take this medication. The problem is he took it too early and he didn't tell us. So his friends brought him onto the plane to say, he just needs to sit here. And I'm like, I'm sitting there with the other stuff going on and wondering, uh, should we take this guy or not? Luckily, uh, we had the aeromedical evacuation team on board. It was a medevac flight that we were also doing, as well as a deployment of people who haven't been home in six months. And through our due diligence and calling back home, we found out, yeah, this guy was actually authorized to fly on the plane. We just nobody knew about it, which was the challenge of sorting that out. We're, uh, into crew day issues as well, uh, with the delay. And then the main thing was, uh, when it's all said and done, we didn't have the, um, weight to take all people and all baggage. So then you can feel the checker going, what's he going to do here?

Yeah, that's a lot of various issues to deal with.

Exactly. So the process is, well, okay, so how do you save fuel and weight? Or how do you save weights? And you go by, well, fuel or passengers. It's only two things you can really do. So, uh, my decision at the time was, uh, I'd much rather these people have been deployed for six, eight months. They need to go home. So I want to get 100% of these people home today, and maybe 60% of their bags might make it. I think anybody would make that decision, too. I knew calling back home, we were coming in there pretty soon to get the other bags, or we can see Mtt at home that's the military going and picking up and movements of cargo and people's belongings. But, uh, whatever the case was, my decision was I'm getting all 100% home of these people, home to their families. So that was challenge number one. That was my pre check ride, which, of course, in flight training, usually they're the hardest ones and everything. So I felt pretty good coming out of that. I'd done blue spruce routes before. I had a very switched on first officer for that. Um, and then my squadron check ride, we had a systems failure. I had to divert 160 people back to Trenton, get them all sorted out. Trenton was a big help overnight and get the plane fixed. We're basically almost oceanic systems failure that, uh, rendered us unable to go across the ocean. Do I land in Halifax and get a hotel for all these people, or do I just go back home? Um, to home base, where it's usually.

Easier to go home.

Yeah, so pretty easy decision there. Mechanics were all there to get the plane fixed. We're out the next day, but I'd never diverted, ever, um, up until my squadron check ride. Uh, so big decision there. And we're overweight, um, for landing. So those considerations have to come into play. And that's the stuff the checker wants to know as well.

Can you guys dump fuel in the.

No, we can't jettison fuel. So basically, when the decision was made, yeah, let's turn back, lower altitude, drop flaps. Um, and of course, uh, they were happy with that. And that's what you would do. Yeah.

And for the listeners, what Jeff's saying there is you fly the lower altitude, the engines are less efficient, you burn extra fuel, and, uh, you put some flaps down and you have some extra drag. So you can, uh, put the engines at a bit of a higher setting and again, burn extra fuel.

Yeah. So, thinking, uh, my pre check ride was pretty sporty, and then my squadron route check was successful, but had its challenges. I go into my aircraft commander upgrade and of course, the checker they do and say nothing. They're just there to evaluate. Uh, and it was, uh, Nymaghan marches in the Netherlands. We're picking up the Canadian contingent of folks, it's military, RCMP, government. They've done their march in Nymaghan. We're going to pick them up. I can't remember the circumstances, but we were very delayed. The airport authority wanted every bag weighed. The military side had its challenges, and again, we were limited with climb and runway size. So with every degree that it got hotter, we were almost your performance is.

Getting worse by the minute.

Absolutely. So, uh, we're sitting there sweating it out, waiting for the bags to get all sorted, and we're already delayed by quite a bit. And, uh, we'd basically take off and it became a matter of crew day. It was a running operation where I did the first half. So, Halifax, Quebec City, Trenton, and then a new crew would take we'd drop people off as we go. A new crew gets in on Trenton and then they go Winnipeg. So if I delay or shut down or run out of crew day, at any point before the new crew gets in that hoops, everybody getting home. The whole plan comes off, plan comes off the rail. So we get oceanic and, uh, we started crunching the time. And I think we assessed that we had ten minutes of slush to not have something go wrong in two stops. And of course, you can just again, feel the evaluator really listening in, going, what's he going to do here? And I made the decision, I was like, well, we'll do one stop. I think it was Halifax. We'll go to Trenton. The people that missed their Quebec stop, I think, uh, we can find another asset for them to go home, but the mission has to continue. We can now get 90% of people home by 100. Uh, the best, worst solution. Of course. That was a good call.

Good for you. That's a stressful decision to make. Yeah, that's not easy. I could easily see myself really struggling to make that call. I think that's difficult. You had obviously had some good mentorship to help you make that call.

I'd say I had the best mentorship. The standards, uh, the instructor pilots, the experience we had on that squadron was second to none. Um, and I absorbed it all, and I think it all came in very handy. But quite honestly, even though those were three flights that required a lot of logistics and things that went wrong, and overcoming and decisions and challenges, that was really no different than when you get checked out as an AC and now you're on the road and missions like that happen all the time. It's, uh, very dynamic and it sets you up. And the fact that you know you can do it and you have the confidence, uh, really helps.

I was just going to say it's almost worse when everything goes easy on a check and then you're going to see it for the first time as the AC. And there will be things that come up like that, but it can be quite stressful if you've had a very smooth ride kind of through to getting upgraded and all of a sudden you're tackling all this stuff for the first time on your own and that happens.

That might just be the circumstances. You get a good go and, uh, then, yeah, you're the person in charge and here you are into these things that you've never experienced before. Uh, that's military flying. Quite honestly, as soon as you leave Trenton, you're the one the buck stops with you and you have to make the mission successful and get the mission done.

So you deployed to the Middle East in support of Op impact. What was that like for you?

I loved it. Um, I was very new off the Otu. Op impact was full swing. They were sending people, everyone was getting their turn. Uh, the flying I really enjoyed because that's what you signed up for, right? You're doing a bunch of passenger missions and eventually flying passengers to Victoria and Heathrow or whatever becomes the same, right. Airport is an airport, but then you're into the air to air world doing actual Canadian forces missions in support of a Canadian forces operation and going into doing actual combat flights and seeing how all that gets managed and tasks and, uh, I loved that aspect of it because you're doing it. It's the real deal mostly. I'd like the camaraderie. It was a small crew, crew of four. We got along excellent on both my tours. Serviceability was awesome. We went basically 100% for all of our missions and, uh, very successful from one tour to the next to see the progress just in the overall mission and where we're going and pushing things back and, uh, the success overall and just our small part that we were able to contribute. Um, but really, it was, uh, getting out into a new place with some great people and, uh, just soaking up all the knowledge. And what an opportunity to be able to fly this 300 plus thousand pound aircraft with fighter jets off your wing, who are very focused on their mission. And we're just trying to give them some fuel so that they can go and do what they have to do. And it's just part of a bigger picture. It's just fascinating how it works.

It's a whole different world when you're in, for lack of a better word, in a war zone, essentially. And, uh, the way the airspace is managed. Vice civilian airspace. And just to be part of, like you say, a whole package of aircraft that are out there doing a mission, it's very, very interesting.

We call it a force multiplier, where our role is just to help these jets can't stay in the air forever, but we're up there to make them stay up longer. So we're not the mission, but we're in support of what the overall, uh, objectives are and very uh, happy to do it. And I get to see parts of the world I'd never in a million years as a social treatment family counselor back in the day, would have ever expected myself to ever be in. So, yeah, it was great. I really enjoyed my time there.

Did you feel afraid or nervous at first, going over there?

Not in terms of the risk that never comes into play. I think we are so well trained that, uh, you put that professional hat on and you just get in that zone, you do your job. It never really became a thing for me. Of course, you know where you are, and as long as you've got great, uh, support around you and you're flying with great people, which I was uh it's a non factor, really. The stress of it was not having done air to air. And now you're in your first combat mission, is your first air to air mission. But I mean, they train you very well and they had somebody over there, uh, helping us along the way and getting us checked out for the crews that were swapping in and out quite regularly. Instead, uh, of doing it domestically, we were just doing all of our air to air training, um, in the field, essentially.

So for you, if there was any extra stress, it was more about that uh, desire to perform well in an unfamiliar task.

Yeah. And again, going back to all things polaris, the learning curve very steep, and I mean, who gets to do air to air refueling, right? So uh, it's quite a dance up in the sky and there's a lot of, again, orders and pubs and things that go with it.

What do you think was the most interesting part of your tours?

Getting to see the world. But for me, the engineering feat of having one plane refueling fighter jets, you just think about the skill required on their part and the feat of engineering that's actually happening to get this done 20, 30,000ft in the air. It's just fascinating. And you get to see all the NATO jets as well.

I was going to say it must be really neat to see those jets up close.

I remember, uh, 90s kids, so True Lies era. And you see your first harrier pulling up beside you. And I remember the tanker commander at the time, he's like, hey, you mind, uh, tucking a little closer? My fo his jaws on the floor here. He's never seen a harrier jet and of course he was happy to oblige, give us a little maneuver as he very cool left. Uh, and that was stuff like that. Nobody gets experiences like that.

That's really awesome. Yeah, I mean every now and then in the Aurora we'd be in a stack, uh, over someplace and there'd be other jets and we'd see them in orbit and they'd be 1000ft different altitude. And even from that view it was so cool to see a tornado or uh, Mirage or any of those jets that you love to see at an air show or something. So it must be really something to see them form up on your aircraft to get fuel.

I mean you're sitting in a tiny jet and our job was really just make that refueling episode as easy as possible and make that the easiest part of their day. That was the tanker commander I was with. He was very keen on that and it always stuck with me. That keep the sun out of their eyes, make it smooth, find the best piece of airspace. These guys are working. They don't get to stand up and go have a coffee and go to the bathroom in the back of a large jet. Uh, so our job was really make their life as easy as possible.

That's some great leadership.

I feel like we really got a good reputation. The Canadians out there call sign was Hoser as some of the smoothest air to air refueling in NATO. People really liked refueling off of us because we consider all that extra stuff.

The players flies VIPs quite often. Can you tell us who some of the VIPs were that you've flown? Are you allowed to talk to them at all or do they tend to come and say hello?

Yeah. So the big three. So at the beginning you said VVIP. The extra V is for very so in the Canadian forces, VIPs is in the orders colonels and above. But for my desk and my second tour being the VIP coordinator, um, the big three are members of the royal family, governor's General or the Prime Minister. Those are the ones that I specifically was looked after and that's where the extra V comes in. It's just a delineation from kind of the forces VIPs and to civilian kind of Vvips if uh, that makes sense. Best thing I can tell you about VIP flying, we are a service provider. We are just uh, again, like the airdrop fueling a small drop in a much larger picture. So our job is to just get these people A to B as they want it. But we're the service provider where the people, um, our job is to just fly the plane. Everything else is really irrelevant and the flying really doesn't change much. The cockpit is the same, you're going to the sea. It's just a little, uh well not a little, but a lot more spit and polish. And really being on the ball, especially with timings. If you can think about it from a VIP point of view, showing up early isn't always necessarily a great thing. You have to show up absolutely on time because a country may, um, have a welcoming party or their prime minister or their dignitaries. You don't want to show up 40 minutes early and say, yeah, hey, we got that tailwind, we actually have to show up on time. And that's some of the challenges with that. Uh, and of course just always being on your game, which is probably the thing I love most about VIP flying is 3 hours before the flight, you're sitting around, your feet are up, you're going through your mission, you're just shooting the breeze. And then, uh, you get that call and everybody just puts their game face on. Everybody straightens up, everybody does exactly what they're supposed to do. The professionalism that uh, just all comes together and everybody just does their job so perfectly when it's game on. And I just love that about the military is how casual it can be, but then the ability for everybody to just do exactly what they need to do, what they've been trained to do, I uh, love that and especially comes out a lot in VIP flying. We see them, they don't uh, put yourself again in their mindset, uh, they're still on, they're still working. Uh, it's not a pleasure cruise. Uh, so it's also a safe place that they can have some quiet time, they can do what they need to.

Do, they can be a person, they.

Can be a person. Um, and again, we're just there to focus on our objective. It's always nice to see them and say hello. Um, but really my sympathies are there because they always have to be on and the delegation and the people that surround them, um, they're going into a summit, so they're being briefed or they're using that plane as an office all the same as an office in parliament. So if they do or do not come up, it's none of my business. Uh, and you really get an appreciation for the jobs that these people do.

I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. I like what you said about it being a safe space for them, a safe place for them to kind of get their work done. Unwind a little bit. Maybe not unwind is not the right word, but not be in the public eye.

Yeah, exactly. And uh, most of the time it's just business as usual. Their staffers are in their meetings and they're doing their things and, uh, who knows what they're that's not my job.

Did you find it interesting to fly VIPs? Is that something you enjoyed?

I loved it. Again, you go back to here's this guy with no flight experience, uh, now flying this multimillion dollar jet, calling out Camp force one on the radio. Royals One there's a novelty to it. But really, like I say, it goes back to there's no real difference in the flying that we do, um, some logistical matters, but uh, it's neat. You can't brush that aside that, uh, you're flying these people to give people.

An idea of the kind of folks they may fly around if they fly the Airbus. Can you tell us some of the Vvips that you flew?

Yeah, so of uh, three governor generals, the last three I've flown them. Prime Minister Honorable Justin Trudeau, obviously, anytime you see him in the news on the Airbus, that's us flying it. And then my very last mission at the unit was flying Israel Highness King Charles III, then Prince, when he did his Canadian tour last year. So that was kind of my departure from the squadron when I was coming here, uh, out to portage. And uh, that was awesome.

What a privilege.

Yeah, it'll stick with me forever. And him and Camilla signed my logbook and everything, which is extra, uh, special.

Yeah.

Uh, but they were great to work with. Uh, but again, you get a very good appreciation of the office. And when they go out to do these tours, their time is well managed and no doubt when they hit the ground, it's all business, when they're in the air, it's all business. Uh, like I say, it's not really a pleasure cruise. Uh, they have a purpose and a mission all the same. And we're just a very small part of that. And so our job is just get them where they need to be on time.

So if you're interacting with then Prince Charles, is that Your Majesty or sir.

Or how did that yeah, Your Royal.

Highness, uh, is quite ignorant of the terminology. Do you guys get briefed on all that?

Yeah, as the VVIP coordinator, that's the stuff that I would be helping the.

Crews out etiquette and that sort of thing.

Etiquette for the different, uh, offices, uh, the staffers who's, who we always had a mission commander on board, which is uh, usually the CEO or a major at the squadron who's done these quite a bit. They're usually managing the people and the pilots are just doing the pilot stuff and flying. Okay. Um, but of course, you're not going to not interact with these people if they come up, uh, and want to talk. And it's very interesting, great to see them in person, but if they have business or they're doing their own thing, I'm just here to fly the bus.

I suspect we've covered at least one of these, but what would you say are your most memorable flights you've had on the Polaris?

I'll give you three. The first is, uh, my very first flight flying the Prime Minister was canforce, uh, one call sign, which is a thing in Canada. Uh, it is. canforce one and we were in France and beyond. It being my first PM trip, we were flying into Normandy. And that, to me, as, uh, a history buff, just super impactful. And I remember when you could see the beaches and there was, uh, just these puffy, round, cumulus clouds, and the AC was flying. I was at Foe at the time. They just kind of had that look like flak. And I just like, I'm sitting there looking at the beaches of Normandy exactly as you've read it, seen it, and kind of the crescent shape. And I remember Jaw was on the floor, and at some point I even missed a radio call and say, hey, that was for you. But just totally enamored by the fact that here I am, flying in Normandy, looking at these beaches was, uh, just one of the probably top three, for sure. The second one would be flying His Royal King Charles III as my going away departure trip last spring. Uh, that was awesome. What an opportunity. And then absolutely my number one, hands down, will never be beat. Uh, my first trip after all the craziness of my aircraft commander upgrade. My first trip as an aircraft commander I had my wife in the back with my two month old daughter and we're going to the Abbotsford air show and to speak to that any member of the Canadian forces. If there's no dangerous cargo and a few other caveats, no VIPs, they can take what's called a priority five trip. So you can jump on an Airbus or you can jump on a military aircraft under some certain guidelines. So I was able to get my wife on board with my daughter and a few other family members. And people that need to go to BC, just members of the military or their families can take advantage of these flights. I really encourage people to do it.

I, uh, think through the air movement unit in, uh, Trenton.

Is that air movement? And Trenton, primarily through NPSC, National Passenger Service in Canada, they can look up flights, and it's just kind of one of the perks of the job.

Is that something they can just Google? National Passenger Service.

I think it all has to be it's all internal. Internal, yeah.

Okay, but that's worth looking up then, for, uh, any listeners who are in the military, the National Passenger Service, if you're ever interested in taking us.

Yeah, I want to be clear, it's not privilege, uh, of a flying captain being able to get their family on board. Any member of the military and their family, they can take advantage of these flights, uh, with a few caveats, uh, another day, another topic. But anyways, my wife's on board, my two, three month old daughter, uh, and being able to flip the switch and say, is your aircraft man you're speaking? Uh, I could hear my wife way in the back just squealing, because it's just as much, uh, a win for her.

Well, she supported you through all that process.

I supported six, seven years of all of this to get here. And here I am, uh, my own plane near the guy going to take these people and my first flight, having them as cargo, second and none.

Yeah, I can imagine that would be very special. What is the most fulfilling part of your job?

Flying the Polaris, obviously, the office views pretty spectacular. Um, flying all over the world, all that stuff, and getting to go places I never in a million years would have thought I'd get to go to. But really, at the end of the day, what it comes down to is that stability that I have to be able to look after my family in terms of the benefits, the compensation, whatever hassles and stresses I go through, I know my family is looked after. They can pursue their dreams, their education. We are well looked after in, uh, terms of that stuff. But, uh, for me, as a family man, being able to give my family those opportunities by flying as a perk, I've always considered flying as a perk to the stability that I can give my family as the most fulfilling part of my job. That, uh, I can give them these opportunities by doing something that I also love. So, win win for all. Yeah.

You know, Jeff, that's the first time somebody has answered that question in that way. And I really like that answer, that the most fulfilling part is the way that it helps you to take care of your family. I think that's such an interesting way to look at that question, and I really like that answer. This is kind of sales time. So in 30 seconds or less, if I'm a pilot in training, why should I want to fly the Polaris? What makes it unique and who would it appeal to?

Well, I don't think too many people are going to get the opportunity to fly the Polaris anymore.

That's true. But let's say flying, uh, on the new fleet. The reason Jeff said that is that we're taking on a new fleet to replace the Polaris fleet. What Airbus are we getting now?

330.

The airbus 330 but all the same.

Things that I'm about to say would apply to them. So I personally always enjoyed the size, the engineering, the fact that you're flying something that's almost £350,000 by sitting in a stationary seat with all this plane and mechanics behind you, going all over the world and the engineering of it all. That was the appeal to me. But the correct answer here is you're going to get to see the world on the players, you're going to get to go to really nice places, you're going to get to fly these VIPs if this is your thing. And then the dynamic nature of four, three, seven is one day you could be flying some army troops to Edmonton, the next day you're doing an air to air mission somewhere in the US. Uh, and then the day after that you're flying King Charles to uh, wherever he needs to go so I qualified and all. Once you get that AC check, with the exception of some air to air qualifications you're expected to be able to fly that plane all around the world and you're going to see the world for sure. I think I've been as far west as Fiji and as far east as Dubai and other people have had the luxury of uh, being able to go all around the world uh, more than I had. That uh, should appeal to most.

Yeah I want to do it. We're down to the uh, last three questions, which are three of my favorite questions we ask them in every show.

Hit it.

What is the most important thing you do to keep yourself ready as a pilot?

You have to be in the books. It's nonstop. And I don't just say that as uh, the cliche, make sure you know your orders. I took the example of this from the 10,000, 20,000 hours guys that I got to work with at four Three Seven. They were the ones in the lounge on their iPad, looking up change notices and new pubs and what affects the trip. And they're 30 years in, they're 50 years old, close to retirement, a whole career behind them. And they're still learning and into the pubs every single night, just trying to find those bits of information and reviewing old stuff that, uh, you haven't looked at in a while. So always, never stop. One of them told me, uh, a professional aviator, it's a full career of learning. You should never stop learning and being in the books and getting everything you can. Sullenberger learn those lessons. We m all learn those lessons from that scenario.

Chesley Sully sullenberger famously ditched his airliner in the Hudson River in the event that became known as the Miracle on the Hudson. A bird strike caused a double engine failure. All 155 people aboard survived.

For me, staying humble, obviously, with my background coming into the forces, which was minimal to none, I always have had and still have to this day, a bit of impostor syndrome, being able to do what I've been able to do. And that kind of drives you in a positive way to say, hey, you've had this opportunity. You need to keep up and be sharp and be good. So that's your incentive to be in the books and doing good, uh, because it's you, you're the one that's going to solve the problems. You're the one, when you're on the road all by yourself that needs to know this information and getting good sleep. I think it's been mentioned before, but, I mean, crew rest is second and none when it comes to a good next day if you can get it. Time zones, stresses tests, whatever the case. Hinders that sometimes. But, uh, getting good crew rest and adequate crew rest which, uh, can be easy or hard depending on it, but makes your day a lot easier. And keeping those supports strong at home on the road, being very open with how you're feeling, what you're doing. I've had flights myself where you know what, despite this mission and we are still within a crew day or uh, itin time, we are absolutely begged, we are shutting it down at this next stop with the least impact to the mission and nobody ever bats an eye. It's a safe choice, it's the right choice. And being able to make those decisions to keep you very successful at your job.

So when you say keeping those support strong at home, you mean within the squadron, the people who are backing you up?

Absolutely. Your peers on squadron, um, if uh, you have something going on at home or your family, making sure they're well looked after both by you and uh, their peers and your peers, just making sure you have people to rely on, it can't just be you all the time.

What do you think makes a good pilot?

Going back to what I was just saying, you have to be hungry for the knowledge. Nothing, as you know, is just hand delivered to you. M, nobody's going to hold your hand through it. So you have to really be hungry for learning. And it can't just stop at phase one, two, three. Because this information that, uh, you're hungry for, you can't just take the knowledge, do a test and dump it. Because when you're on your own, you have to know your aircraft systems, you have to know the orders, uh, because that's what's going to save your butt legally or safety wise one day. Uh, when you find yourself in a situation, you have to be able to rely on your knowledge and the only way to continue to get it is you have to be wanting that knowledge and be hungry for it. And not just ram dump after a test or something.

Yeah, you can't just do the old cram for a day and then forget it type learning.

No, you have an engine fire. You need to know how to deal with that.

It's not about the test, it's about everything that comes after the test.

Absolutely. Yeah. The classic saying is we don't make our money on any ordinary day, we always make our money when things go wrong. That's what people are relying on. If you can access that information or know where it is and know the stuff you need to know, things are going to fall apart. So that hunger for knowledge has to be there and career long. I think about saying, uh, going to law school after my degree, that's too much work. Only to come to a profession where 25, 30 years of non stop learning.

It's easy to underestimate the work involved in this job.

Absolutely.

Because it is immense. You absolutely need to be ready for a ton of studying and a life of studying, especially in the early days, but it never stops.

Full circle. Back to Portage. Uh, now that I'm here, take everything you learn in phase one, two, and three, pack it up into a neat little package. And that's only about 5% of what you're going to experience and what you need to know. So if you're having thoughts or second guesses, or you need that motivation, you're about to learn a lot more. And the learning curve continues throughout an entire career, not just your phase training.

We're at the last question now. This is my favorite question, and what we're thinking about here is maybe that air cadet, that private pilot, or that person who maybe has no flight experience, but they're thinking about a, uh, career in the forces. Or as a pilot, what advice would you give to that new pilot, give to that aspiring pilot?

My best advice is, uh, maybe the way I did it is, uh, you just kind of look at every stage as you might have 1230 steps to get to that thing. Phase one, phase three, whatever the case is. And you just need to go one at a time, just whatever the next thing is. And eventually you will get there. You will get to the finish line and then understand that, uh, once you do that, while the next goal resets. And now you might have 892 steps and you just start, okay, number one, let's do it. And you just have to be in that mindset of ticking off what's the next thing, what's tomorrow, what's right in front of me, and, uh, you will get to where you need to go. Uh, you have to be very resilient, especially through flight training and your whole career. Even as of two weeks ago, I'm still doing flight tests and exams and, uh, you're getting feedback. And, uh, you have to be able to take criticism well, but not in the negative sense. You have to understand where the criticism comes from. They don't care necessarily what you do, right? We're all good at doing what we're doing, um, but we really want to improve the things that need improving. To be perfect, to be good, to be excellent at what we do. And that goes back to the credit of the training system that makes us, uh, such good pilots. Comfortability with problem solving, as we talked about. You see a problem, you should have instant solutions and really be able to access all that knowledge and information and then have those outlets, PT family, something to really veg out. You have a stressful day or a flight test that you passed or didn't pass. Have an outlet to be able to go shake it off, come back, do it again. That stuff will follow you for your career.

Yeah. And the earlier you develop those healthy coping mechanisms, the better for you.

Mhm.

I really, really like what you say about the step by step approach because the knowledge from where you start to where you need to be is such a big jump. And if you try to look at it as one jump, you can't do it so overwhelming. You will feel extremely stressed out. You will think like, how could I ever get to that point? Um, the only way to do it is one bite at a time. Okay, that's going to wrap it up for our interview today. Jeff, thanks so much for making the time to be here. I know you are on leave, so I really appreciate you carving out some time for us, uh, to have this chat today. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I think it's a great podcast. I think, uh, going back to what I could have learned on my phase one, phase two going through or even before I got in, this would have been great gen to have. Thanks.

Yeah, thank you. Uh, I really hope that it is useful, uh, to our listeners out there. So thanks again. Okay, that wraps up this episode on the Polaris with Jeff. For our next episode, I'll be sitting down with my good friend of over 20 years, John Larmond, and we'll be talking about the Air Force's largest aircraft, the C 17. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard or in general, you can reach out to us at thepilotprojectpodcast@gmail.com or at podpilotproject on all social media. One of the best parts of my day is hearing from listeners. We've experienced some great growth this month in listenership and we just want to thank you for that and ask for your continued support in helping us with the big three that's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. We still rely entirely on word of mouth to grow. So thank you. That's all for now. Thank you for listening. Keep blue side up. See you. Engineer shut down all four shutting down all four engines.