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All right, we're ready for departure here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF brought to you by Skies Magazine and RCAF Today. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is Phase Two grobe student, Scott Harding. Scott, welcome to the show.

Thanks very much, Brian.

Before we start, let's go over Scott's Bio. Uh, Scott joined the RCAF in 2007 as an Air Combat Systems officer, or Axo, through the Regular Officer Training program. Upon completing his degree at the University of Western Ontario, he was sent to one Canadian Forces flight training school, now known as 402 Squadron in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Here, he earned his Axo wings in 2012 and was posted to 414 Electronic Warfare Squadron in Ottawa. After five years of flying, he completed successive staff tours as an operational planner at the air component coordination element ace in yellowknife and then as the senior staff officer for electronic warfare at one Canadian air division in Winnipeg. 15 years after originally joining, scott finally made the switch to Pilot and is currently undergoing Phase Two grobe training at three CF FFTs in Portage. Today we will touch on Scott's time as an Axo, and then we'll be focusing on his experience through Phase One and the beginning of Phase Two. We plan on checking in with him after each phase of training so that we can kind of get a chance to see what it's like to be a student in all phases. So, Scott, first of all, what did you do this morning?

This morning I did a quick SIM session. It was about an hour and a half. We did, uh, emergencies, basically. So spent, uh, about an hour in quote unquote, instrument conditions where I was flying in the clouds, and different emergencies come about, and I have to find a way to make my way through them. And then about, uh, 25 minutes or so in visual conditions for landing and takeoff and stuff like that.

Cool. Was it fun?

It was a lot of fun. It can be a little stressful at times, but the instructors, especially here in Portage, really make you feel at ease. And at this point in my course, it's more of a learning thing than it is an examination, uh, thing.

Yeah, that makes sense. So you're still in the phase where you're allowed to make mistakes, correct?

Yeah, absolutely. There's always a discussion after about, well, you did this, but you could have done that, or I might have done this a little different.

I think the hardest thing about that phase is they're allowing you to make mistakes, but you have to allow you to make mistakes, too. At first. It's really easy to be really hard on yourself, and that's a good thing to an extent. But some people get so stressed out about messing up. And that's what you're expected to do at that point.

Absolutely it is.

Yeah.

For sure.

So you had a previous career in the forces. Can you tell us more about your work as an Axo and for the listeners? Axo is the new name for navigators. So when we say Air Combat Systems Officer Axo, that used to be the navigator trade. And that's the new name for it.

Yeah. So, uh, as an Axo, I was posted to 414 Electronic Warfare Squadron in Ottawa, which is responsible for conducting training exercises with both the Air Force and the Navy, as well as a little bit of army, uh, work. And basically what I did was sit in the back of a contracted aircraft called the Alpha Jet, with contracted pilots up front who are all super experienced ex military, uh, fighter pilots. And my job was to provide electronic warfare effects, jamming, threat replication, things like that, to affect the pilots on the other end or the Navy on the other end, and affect what they would see or how they would react, force them to do different maneuvers. And I did that for five years. Had a lot of fun doing it. It was a great job, learned a ton. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. And electronic warfare can be a very complicated subject when you're trying to talk about the beeps and squeaks. And it was a lot of fun to really delve into that. I've really owned that for the last few years, outside of, uh, my time up in Yellowknife. Coming back to Winnipeg and being the senior staff officer for electronic warfare for three years was really, really rewarding and it was a lot of fun to do.

What did that job involve as a senior staff officer?

So, it was a lot of coordination. I wasn't flying anymore, obviously. I was working in Winnipeg in the one Canadian Air Division headquarters there. And it was a lot of coordination between the fleets themselves. So Air Mobility Fleet or TAC Aviation Fleet. The Defense Research and Development, Canada. Folks who do a lot of electronic warfare testing and development. Outside agencies army, Navy, Air Force. It was a lot of coordination between everybody to make sure that the EW effects that we were able to provide either as force employers or for self protection, that they were able to be used properly and coordinated with everybody.

I would imagine that EW is just more and more important as time goes on. And a quick note for our listeners. EW means electronic warfare, in which you detect, interpret, control or disrupt signals in the electromagnetic spectrum.

So, yeah, EW is going to be critical as we move forward with things like UAS, Unmanned Aerial Systems or the F 35. The Aurora, as you know, is doing a lot of electronic warfare type stuff. There is so much data in the world, and it's all available for the taking or for the playing with. And we need to be more involved in how we execute our missions. With EW in mind. It has to be part of the game plan. It can't just be a secondary thought. And we're slowly getting to that point.

It kind of makes me think about how cyberspace and space as well, like satellites and such, are becoming such a big player as well. Like with us standing up. The three Canadian space division. I was chatting with General Adamson, the commander of the three Canadian Space Division, and just talking a little bit about why is it important? And it was like, mind blowing. The things you don't realize are part of your everyday life and sort of to the same extent, electronic warfare is that part of everyday life in the battle space.

It really is. I mean, everything we do relies on the electromagnetic spectrum. Your GPS, your communications, even the signals within your own aircraft. It's all electromagnetic spectrum and it can all be affected in different ways. And if we're not prepared to protect ourselves or to use it to our advantage, then we're going to be behind the curve. There's discussion about whether and I think the US. Has gone in this direction. Electronic warfare is now a domain of warfare.

Okay.

Like air, like land, like sea, like space. Electronic warfare. Electromagnetic spectrum is its own domain.

Yeah, that makes sense. Going back to the Alpha jet, how was that? That must have been pretty cool.

It was amazing.

Is it dual control? Like, you guys have controls in the back?

Yeah, we have full control in the back. And now, like I said, they're super experienced pilots.

Those folks let you guys fly?

They do, yeah. Every now and then, especially we would do, uh, close air support training in Petawah because the squadron itself is situated in Ottawa. And not that you need an E wo in the back for close air support, but hey, the airplanes are in Ottawa, we might as well go flying too.

Yeah, absolutely. It's all great experience, right?

Exactly. We jump in the back and go out to, uh, Petawa with them. And when you do close air support, there's a lot of just flying around in circles as the guys on the ground are trying to get the pilot's eyes on the target. So instead of the pilot trying to fly and look out the airplane and figure out what he's supposed to hit, they would just give us control in the back, and I would just fly in circles and he could then be free to look around and see and try and figure out what the army dudes on the ground were trying to point his eyes to.

That must have been really fun.

It was so much fun. Basic fighter maneuvers, turning and burning like you see in Top Gun.

Is the Alpha jet fairly maneuverable?

It is. It's not super quick. We can't break the sound barrier or anything like that, but because it's a little slower, it is a little more maneuverable and we can turn a little bit tighter and a little faster than, say, something bigger, like an F 15 or something like that.

Very cool.

Yeah.

Where's the coolest place you went in the Alpha Jet?

Yeah, we went down to Key West for a big fighter exercise and there must have been like 20 Hornets down there as well as some American jets and like six or eight Alpha jets and we would go up and do these massive missions against one another and it was amazing. And then you're coming back during the day and you see the blue ocean. Just incredible. Beautiful place to be flying.

Did your time on the Alpha Jets reinforce your desire to become a pilot?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, when I was a kid, you watch Top Gun and you're like, man, I want to do that. And I joined as an Axo and that was still in the back of my mind, and I think that's why I asked for Alpha Jets coming out of the NAV School mhm. And so doing that and being able to turn and burn and go upside down and have fun, it did burn a little bit in me. Like, man, I wish I could be the guy in the front seat.

On that note, why then join as an EXO instead of a pilot?

Coming out of high school? I applied for pilot and pilot only. That was the only thing on my application because that was the only thing I wanted to do. I had been an air cadet. I did glider license, I did my private pilot's license through Air Cadets. All I wanted to do was be a pilot. And when they stacked me up against everybody else, the only thing at that time that they really have to stack you with is your high school marks. So when they looked at my high school marks, they weren't that competitive. And unfortunately, when the selections the first year after high school came down, I wasn't one of the guys that got selected. I applied the next year and the recruiter told me, listen, I really think you should put a second choice. So I added Axo, knowing that it was still a flying thing and maybe that's something that could work out. And after a little while, they called me up and said, hey, listen, we don't think you're going to get pilot again. You're not high enough on the list. But you will get Axo, but only if it's your number one choice. So switch it to number one and I guarantee you selection and the famous line, don't worry, it's easier to switch once you're in. Now, it's been 15 years for me, it could have been earlier. It wasn't the right time for me, for your career, for my career, for my family. Now is, which is why I made the switch now. So anyways, I joined as an Axo and like I said, did almost 15 years as an axo before, uh, finally making the switch.

The switch itself is called a voluntary occupational transfer. Vot. So what was the process for your vot? How does that work?

So every June ish springtime, the military puts out a can for gen that basically says the program is open.

So Camforgen is a Canadian forces General message and it basically is whenever they need to make an important announcement, a big rule change, an order that changes whatever, they put out a new can forgen and they also are for routine things, like I said, announcements. So I guess they do them for vot. I know they do can forgens for promotions for higher ranking officers, I believe.

Yeah. Command appointments and stuff like that. So yeah, every springtime they put out a can for gen that essentially says the program is open. Voluntary occupation transfers are permitted into these certain trades and it ebbs and flows year to year what's available, and it's all based on numbers. If they have too many of one and not enough into the other, well, then they're going to open up the other one in order to feed people into that. And as you know, Pilot is always, always short on people. So Pilot happened to be open and so I applied. Best way to do it once the message comes out is contact your local Personnel Selection officer and they will walk you through the process. Basically transferring, uh, to Pilot, it was an application that has to be signed by a whole bunch of chain of command doctors, stuff like that. So you do have a little bit of a medical portion. I had to do an interview with the PSO.

A PSO is a Personnel Selections Officer. They provide advice to military commanders in the areas of recruiting, selection, leadership and other human resource activities basically to make.

Sure that I was going to fit with the new trade. And if you're already in, you have the option of redoing your aptitude test. I chose to redo it because the last time I did it, I was a 17 year old kid coming out of high school.

Yeah, fair enough.

And my thought process was, I'm smarter than that kid. I was correct, because you keep the mark. Whatever you get this time, that's the mark you get. So if you get worse, then that's the one you get.

It's a risk.

It was a risk I was thinking.

Back when I did it and there's.

A lot of math, there's some math.

The kind of math that you used to in high school. Do a lot more on paper and in your head versus nowadays, let's be honest, most of us use our phone.

Yeah. So there's a couple of online not courses, but like online resources that retaught me, grade nine math and how to do basic arithmetic and stuff like that that I haven't done. Solve for X. Yeah, it's just a.

Tool you haven't used in forever.

Exactly right. So I redid the aptitude test. There's also a personality test that they do now.

Okay.

I don't know exactly what they're looking for or how it applies to your selection score, but, uh, they do that. That's the kind of PSO side. And then there's the Air Force side, uh, specifically for the aircrew trades, pilot, axo, and aerospace controller. You go to Trenton and you do air cruise selection.

So you did Air crew selection again?

I did, yeah. So I did Air Crew selection back in 2007, 2008, whatever it was, when I was first applying, and I passed everything, there was no issues. I could have been a pilot. AEC, Axo, they were all available to me. But it's only good for five years. Uh, so I was outside of that five years, had to go back and do it. Totally new test.

I was going to say, has it changed a lot?

Totally new. So when I did it, it was that little simulator.

Yeah, there was a SIM and then, like, paper tests where you had to read the gauges as fast as you could and get information from charts as fast as you could.

Yeah, exactly.

I have wondered, how has air crew selection changed?

It is totally digital. So from my understanding, they've borrowed this system from the UK and from the Australians. Okay. It is totally digital. It's all done on computers. And it's a whole series of tests that's designed to check certain aspects of you. Some of them are certain aspects at the same time. There's memory stuff, there's cognitive ability, there's, uh, motor skills. It's a whole two days of testing. Two half days really is what it is.

So give me an example of something they might ask you to do.

There's tests that are like, there's a dot going across your screen, and if the dot is yellow, then you have to push the yellow button when the yellow dot goes through the yellow part. But then there's also green dots and red dots and blue dots and green, red and blue sections. Uh, and you have to be able to hit the right button when it goes through the right section. Not so bad. You can do that. But you're also doing math problems at the top of the screen. So you're adding and subtracting just simple math. And then you're also trying to remember code sequences at the bottom of the screen. So you're trying to do multiple things at once. And really what it all comes down to is systems management. Can you prioritize and try and remember and do the little things that you have to do all at the same time?

It sounds really tricky, but at the same time, there's a part of my brain that's, like recognizing the connection to, for example, on the Aurora, a busy flight where you're flying low, you're listening to three or four different radios, you're tracking a submarine, you're also listening to the intercom. And there's so much that you're remembering while you're performing a, uh, physical task as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I found it really, really good and directly applicable to flight experience, both as an axle, like it is important, a lot of that as an axle, but very much so as a pilot.

So you would say that it seems like a better process than when we went through it 15 ish years ago.

Yeah, I would say it's doing a much better job at selecting people that will be successful on pilot training.

Very cool. So what do you think is the best thing that listeners can do? If there's somebody who's listening, who's planning on joining and has been stressing about how to prepare for air crew selection, how can they prepare?

So there's a couple of things you can do. The first one that I did was there's applications on your phone. One is called luminosity. Just any of those brain type games that are designed to work on your memory skills, work on your math skills, and not that it's complicated, but just things to make you multitask like that. So I downloaded Luminosity and I used that every day, two or three times a day, just to keep my brain going and work some of those muscles that I haven't worked in a few years. There is also a package that I think it's available online, that's kind of a welcome package. And if you're coming to air cruise selection, here's what to expect.

Oh, this is like an official thing put out by okay.

And there are some other downloadable or available on the computer guides and stuff that will talk you through more of the British Australian ones, but they're very, very similar to what we do.

And where can people find those google.

Aircrew selection in the UK, like RAF or RAF, and you'll find something and.

You found that that was effective, that helped you get through.

Luminosity was the one that I picked just because I had knew that app already. But it was very, very good at, uh, refreshing my brain and getting me ready to go.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

So let's move into your flight training. Listeners who have listened to the episode we did on training delays will remember that Colin and Morty talked about some non standard courses we've been doing. And you've actually been on one of those kind of pilot projects. Can you tell us a little more about that?

Yeah, so the training program that Colonel Peak talked about was a mashup of phase one and phase two grobe. And basically I did a very shortened version of phase one. So normally I think it's 22 flights. I did the first twelve and then rolled right into phase two training.

Okay.

And it did a couple of things. One, it shortened that time frame between phase one and phase two because it was virtually back to back, but it also meant that there's a lot of overlap at the end of phase one with the beginning of phase two. And I didn't need to do that end of phase one stuff because I was about to do it in phase two mhm, so it saved both training time and waiting time, and it has been effective. So there's four people that are going through the program. Two of them have already graduated phase two, and then myself and another captain are on the phase two right now. We've got about a month to go.

So are you guys on your own course? Are you synced up with a phase two course right now?

We were supposed to be synced up with a phase two course, but I don't think anybody else was ready, so it's just us on the course.

Okay, and did you start phase one with a phase one course?

Yes. So we did start phase one, the ground school portion, with another course. So that was back in october, and then we came back in january to start the flying portion of it. So our flying for phase one was completely separate from everybody else but the ground school portion, we dove in with a, uh, phase one course.

Okay, and how was that phase one ground school? How'd you find that experience?

It wasn't bad. So myself and the other gentleman that's on course with me, we were both axos, we've both been in for ten plus years and have some experience. So they were understanding of the fact that, hey, you know what, maybe you don't need a full week of meteorology classes. Maybe you already know a lot of the air regs.

Okay.

So they really focused it for us on the aircraft and flying the aircraft and some of the important things that we need to know for portage, because it didn't make sense for guys like us to sit through a week of meteorology when we did two weeks of meteorology at the NAV school.

So it was a little different from what the other phase ones were doing.

Yeah, for sure.

Can you walk me through what day one looks like for a phase one student?

Yeah. So day one, you'll get your package ahead of time that says, show up at this place at this time, you've already got your room key, so you've stayed overnight, wake up in the morning lost and trying to find where to go eat breakfast, and you just follow the crowd of other people. 08:00 in the morning, you show up, you're in your, uh, blue dress uniform because they want to take pictures and probably single you out so everybody knows who the new guys are. And then it's a series of briefings. Welcome to the school. From the commandant, from the squadron, warren officer from the kfro ownership group. The clerks come talk to you. The personal support program fitness folks come talk to you.

So it's basically like your standard first day in the military.

First day, welcome. Here's everything that we've got. Don't forget anything. And then you do a quick tour around. So they show you where your lounges kind of Ping Pong table, movies, couches, relax, some coffee machines and some snacks, where your study room is, where the other classrooms for the Helo students and the multi engine students are. Take you into the hangar, show you where the airplanes are, show you where Ops is, where maintenance is, just so you get your bearings. And you have an idea of if somebody says, hey, go find this person in the Phase Two lounge, you know where to go and go find them. Yeah.

And then how quickly do you get into the books and the lessons? Is that day two?

Day two, essentially. Yeah. Nowadays they do a lot of things, computer based training. Mhm so part of the Day One is your technical folks bring you laptops and mice and get you all set up, and then they treat you like an adult here. They say, By Wednesday, we're going to teach you AOI Three, which means you need to know that I've got to do CBTS, AOI One and Two, and be ready for AOI Three on Wednesday.

Right. And just let me clarify a couple of acronyms. AOI is Aircraft Operating Instructions. That's all your systems and procedures. And CBTS is computer based training.

Yeah. So basically, they expect you to take the initiative and learn stuff yourself, which for some of the younger folks, I think is a bit daunting. M coming out of high school, if you're a Ceotp, uh, a continuing Education officer, training plan where you don't necessarily have a degree yet, you may not have had the opportunity to study on your own. Whereas in high school, a lot of.

It'S kind of you're used to being spoon fed.

Spoon fed, yeah. Here it's very much you're responsible for your own success or failure.

That's a good thing, though, because that's something you'll hear a lot of my guests talk about. What's something you need to realize when you get to the operational unit, and they always say, like, they're not going to spoon feed it to you. In fact, compared to an operational training unit, even, uh, what you get on Phase One and Two is still being spoon fed. So this is great training for that.

Yeah. I think it really opens people's minds up quickly that it's sink or swim, and you're responsible for whether you get there or not.

How quickly into Phase One are people flying?

So I think the ground school is about three weeks long because they have to do all of the meteorology stuff, the Aois regulations, all that kind of stuff. So they take about three weeks. Phase One writes one big exam at the end, and then you're into simulators in the airplane.

So walk me through that first flight. How did that feel?

It was a bit daunting. So I had told my instructor that I had a little bit of flight experience with a Ppl and glider license and whatnot, so he actually let me do the landing on the very first flight.

Okay.

I mean, very closely shadowed the controls and made sure that I didn't do anything to kill us, but it was a lot of fun. It was very exciting because it was my first flight. He did most of the flying, showing me attitudes and what to look for, which meant I really got to just kind of sit there and look around a little bit, take a little bit of control and do some things myself, and then look around a little more.

Yeah, it's kind of an intro, right?

Yeah, really an intro. And just a lot of fun just to be able to sit there and go, hey, man, I'm up here flying.

I'm flying.

This is pretty sweet.

How do you like the Grobe itself?

It's a lot of fun. It's a pretty capable aircraft because you've.

Flown some other airplanes. Probably, like one hundred and seventy two.

S one hundred and fifty.

One fifty. So it's going to clobber the I.

Did my Ppl on a 150. Uh, yeah, this is a bit faster, climbs a bit better, a little more maneuverable. The grove is a lot of fun. It's not super quick climbing, but when you get it out, uh, to the training area, and you got to do some aerobatics, do some loops and some rolls, it will roll for you. You have to force it into a spin, but when you do, it spins. But no, it's a lot of fun to fly.

And how do you like doing aerobatics?

It was a lot of fun. The first couple, and not that I ever get queasy in an airplane, but the first loop or two we did, and then I just went, just give me a SEC. I'm not going to be sick. I just need a SEC. Okay. All right, let's do this again. And then after one or two flights of doing some aerobatics, you kind of work through it and you're fine.

But yeah, keep that air vent blast and cold air on your face.

Air vent blast and cold air. Nice, easy breakfast. Toast and peanut butter and a banana, whatever. But yeah, no, it was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed the aerobatics.

That's great. I loved flying aerobatics in the Harvard. It was, if not my favorite, it was very close to one of my favorite parts of that course, for sure. Can you take us through a day in the life of a student on phase one?

Yeah, so, I mean, really, there's kind of two parts. There's either your ground school part or your flying part. So ground school, I mean, we've essentially already talked about you wake up in the morning, you either go to class because you. Actually have an in class thing, or you're in the study lounge running through computer based training, or you're talking with your friends trying to figure out, okay, what did you learn from that CBT? Or what did I learn comparing notes. Mhm once you're on the flight line though, things change a little bit. Typically they want to get you flying every day because we don't have a lot of experience. Skill fade happens a lot quicker. Mhm if you've been flying for a few years and you take a week off, you can come back and, yeah, there's a little bit of skill fade, but it'll come back real quick. If I take a week off, I've only got 50 hours in the airplane. The skill fade happens a lot quicker, so they try and keep you flying every day. Typically, you'll brief about an hour before your flight. So if your flight is at 10:00, you'll brief at 09:00 in the morning. We do a Met brief at 745 for everybody, just so everybody has an idea of what's going on, uh, with the weather.

And a Met brief is a weather brief, met for meteorology, but it's also the time when the school does the announcements type thing for if there's anything important for the day or coming up.

Yeah, and then, so yeah, you'll brief your flight about an hour before, sit in a room with your instructor. On phase one, they tell you exactly what you're going to do. On phase two, it's up to you to tell the instructor, hey, here's what I want to do today, within the bounds of what they expect to be teaching you. Uh, but essentially you're providing the briefing to them, vice them briefing you, but in both cases, you're expected to show up ready for the flight. You should have already gone through the Manual of Flying training, the MFT, and learned the maneuver that you're going to do that day, or learned what the circuit looks like. Whatever you're going to do that day, you should have already read through and been prepared. There will still be some discussion and some confirmation that you understand what you're about to do. And then really, it's just going out, jumping into the airplane and executing what you have learned the theory behind. Now let's put it into application. Post flight, come down, take a sip of water, go to the bathroom, and then it's normally about a half hour, 45 minutes debrief for about an hour and a half flight to go through each of the maneuvers that you did things that you did well, things that you need to improve. And then talking about what's going to happen on the next flight.

Had you ever been an instructor as an EXO?

I did, yeah.

So do you kind of recognize their methodology, the good point, bad point, ways to improve?

Yeah, those kind of things. Highlighting common errors ahead of time. Here's some traps to look out for.

Do you find that having had instructional experience helps you a bit to note okay, that's really key. I should pay attention to that.

Yeah, to some extent, the instructional experience does help me understand where the instructors are coming from when they're talking, uh, and it helps me accept the I'll call it constructive criticism a lot better than somebody who you've never been a teacher, you've never been an instructor before, so it just sounds like they're being really mean to you.

You've been a student before as well.

And I've been a student, yeah, exactly.

Because that is tough. When you first start being able to accept that constructive criticism, knowing every flight, even the ones that you feel great about, you're going to come down and you're going to get critiqued, and they're going to see it. All the things you didn't see, even that final turn that you thought was great, they're going to point out some things that could have been better.

Yeah. You missed your power by 0.5. Uh, and even if you did everything right, they'll find something.

Oh, yeah, for sure. What do you think has been your biggest challenge so far on this course?

Hands and feet. 100% hands and feet have been my biggest challenge. The ability to actually make the airplane do what I want it to do. So I've said it to a bunch of the folks that are on course right now. The procedures, uh, reading through the MFT, understanding the processes, the pre flight checks, the checks that you do in the aircraft, uh, the maneuvers and what it should look like. I can do all that. We're doing, uh, instrument flight rules stuff right now. I've read approach plates before I've done approach briefings, so all of this stuff is familiar to me. But to actually fly the approach, to fight the needles on an Ils, or to program the GPS and follow the pink line, that has been my biggest struggle, is being able to control the aircraft as precisely as required in order to maintain your altitude, maintain your heading, maintain your airspeed. And even during the clearhood phase where we were VFR doing aerobatics and stuff out in the area, it was the same thing. M, you're pulling into a loop. I need to pull at four G's, four times the force of gravity well. If I pull this much, it's going to be three G's. If I pull this much, we're at, uh, four and a half. So I need to find that sweet spot. So really it was that hands and feet portion of how to really control the airplane, make it do what I want it to do.

You have to fly the plane. You can't let the plane fly you.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that can be really tough, especially when you move from what's expected from you as a private pilot, and then you move into the military and the level of precision is just so much higher and so little errors that you wouldn't worry about. Like, if you're 50ft off, even 100ft off, whatever, in a private plane, kind of who cares? You'll slowly correct back down if you want to. It's not that big of a deal. You're enjoying the journey in the Air Force. It's all about precision.

Yeah, absolutely. And my instructor is really good. He teaches me, aim small, miss small. So if I aim for perfection, if I'm supposed to be at 4000ft, be at 4000ft. So when I do my test later on, if I start to drift a little bit, well, I'm only going to drift ten or 20ft and then get myself back into position. Aim small, miss small, and you'll stay as close as you can.

So you mentioned that your biggest struggle, your biggest challenge has been hands and feet. Is there anything that you've done to overcome that?

A m lot of chair flying. Just kind of sitting in my room thinking through the maneuver, what am I going to do with my hands and feet? With my right hand on the stick and my left hand on the throttle, my feet on the rudder pedals, I'm going into a maneuver. What is the airplane going to do while I'm flying this maneuver so that I can predict what I'm going to need to do in order to make it do what I want it to do.

Right.

And really, the other thing is just and there's not much I can do about this but time in the aircraft.

Yeah.

Practice just getting in the airplane and flying. And as much as I ask, they won't let me go up. Just take an airplane and go. So, uh, every time we get in the airplane, I'm taking every opportunity that I can to understand more what's going on in my head, how that translates to my hands and feet in the airplane.

Yeah. And I guess it's no surprise that'd be the biggest challenge, especially when you had ten less flights than you normally would have by this point on the grobe from doing that compressed phase one. That's obviously the I don't know if I'd call it a downside, but that's what's going to make it more challenging.

Yes, absolutely. Uh, what do you think has been.

The most fun or exciting experience so far on this course?

So, we flew to Winnipeg the other day on an instrument flight rules flight IFR, but it was perfect. Out, blue skies, a beautiful day. And actually my house is in Winnipeg. We, uh, went in for the Ils 36, which is going straight north. And as we came in, we came in pretty close to my house and I asked my instructor quickly if I could look over and just take a quick peek at my house from above. And that was really cool to be able to fly over my own house. I mean, we weren't directly over top, but we were close enough that I can see it.

That's very cool.

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Outside of that, the aerobatics are just so much fun. Just to move the plane the way it's designed to move and really put it to the edge of the envelope.

Yeah, the cloverleaf was always my favorite. The way you pull up and throw the wing over at the same time, and it just feels very playful and fun. I really, really enjoyed that maneuver. Cuban Eights are cool for me. I like them because I just used to see planes do them at air shows.

Right.

It's just kind of cool.

Going to the London air show back in the day. Yeah, that was the place to be, man.

M yeah, man. That's like the formative years of aviation for me. I can't wait to go to another London air show sometime.

We used to sit, uh, on approach to the runway on the days before the air show. My grandfather used to have, uh, an old CB radio that could pick up the freaks and we would just sit there and listen to the airplanes come in and watch them fly right over our heads. Oh, uh, man. So good. Yeah. Absolutely miss those days.

Do you think that your experience as an axo helps you as a pilot? And if so, how?

Yeah, no, I'd say absolutely in probably two ways. First off, because I was in for 15 years before I made this switch, I'm a heck of a lot more mature than I was 15 years ago. I know how I study better. I am a little more responsible with my time. I also know how to manage my own stress a lot better than I did. And I recognize the difference between here and Axo School, how I am able to manage my own body and my own mind. Mhm so maybe not so much as an axo, but just that time frame, that time that I spent as an.

Axo, the maturity that comes with it.

And the other piece was the regulations, the approaches. A lot of what we learned as an axo translates over to pilot. So we did it's called an amortz briefing, uh, basically the pre approach briefing that sets you up so that everybody in the airplane understands your altitudes, your overshoot, uh, are the radios ready to go?

All your critical safety items.

Exactly. So we did that as axos at the NAV School. So I already knew what an approach plate looked like. I already knew what an Namor's brief sounded like. So I was able to apply all those skills to flying here in South Port. And I do think that helped me take a bit of weight off so that I could focus on the things that I was struggling with a little bit, like the hands and feet.

So something that I think a lot of people hear from a recruiter is, don't worry you can always join as X and switch to pilot later. Like, you obviously made that advice real, right? But do you think that's good advice? Do you think that it's better to just get in, get your feet in the door, and then vot when you're able?

It's a tough question and I think each person will have a different answer. For me, joining as an axle when I did was the right choice. I knew I wanted to be in the military, I knew I wanted to go to university and whether it was on my own. So I paid for my first year of university myself. And then when I did get into the military as an Axo, through ROTP, they started paying for my university, uh, which was good because I had no more money. So at the time, for me, it was the right thing. I needed the job, I needed the way into the military. And there's lots of people, it doesn't always take 15 years to make the switch. There were lots of people around my time when I was going through NAV school that were just about to start their NAV course and made the switch to pilot. For me, it wasn't the right time to switch to pilot. Back in those days, I waited until now because I live in Winnipeg, because I knew I would do all my training here in South Port, and it made my family life a little easier. Mhm if a recruiter tells you, hey, you know what, you're not going to get pilot this year, maybe try Axo AEC, something else, I wouldn't necessarily shoot it down right away. Maybe it's not the right answer for everybody and you kind of have to think maybe the only thing in life you've ever wanted to do is be a pilot. Mhm, and there's other ways that you can do that outside the military. Maybe that's your route. I think it worked out really well for me, given the time that I spent as an Axo and I had a great time as an axle. I learned a ton, I moved up through the ranks a little bit and I really enjoyed my time. And that experience comes with me now to this pilot training. I'm in my mid 30s, I've got lots of time left so I can do another full career as a pilot and not have to worry about it. But for other people, you know what, it may not be the right move.

It sounds like it's a good move if you have to be okay with the trade, you're joining?

Absolutely.

You can't join as a NAV and say, all right, in my head I'm really a pilot. I'm a NAV waiting to become a pilot. You have to be okay with the fact that I am going to be an Axo.

Absolutely.

And I'm going to enjoy that. And then hopefully I'll have a chance to do this down the road.

Yeah, absolutely.

You can't join and think, well, I'll be miserable until the day I'm a.

Pilot, because you won't make it. You won't make it through NAV school. You won't make it through your Otu. You won't make it through your first few years as a NAV if you're not there. Fully invested. Yeah.

How have you found student life outside of flying? Have you found there's a good sense of community?

Absolutely. I mean, I'm a pretty sociable guy. I like talking to, uh, kind of everybody, and, uh, I've found it super easy to make friends of all walks of life. Like I said, I've been in the military 15 years. I am in my mid thirty s I was a major before, uh, my occupation transfer.

I didn't know that. So you took a demotion.

It was a reversion and rank reversion.

Because a demotion, I guess, has some negative negative connotation.

Yeah, it was a reversion and rank back to captain in order to do it. So, uh, I'm from an older generation. Compared to what the folks that are at Southport right now, there's some 20 year olds. There's some guys older than me, too, and we all seem to get along really well. The mess life is fun, but it's not all focused on getting liquored up and getting hammered. There's a really good balance between having fun and doing the work. If you fail a flight, everybody that you meet will be there to support.

You and trying to help you.

Trying to help you. I got my selection, actually, today, just before this meeting, I got selected for, uh, multi engine.

Hey, congratulations.

Thank you very much. I got my selection today for multi engine and walked into the mess. And the guys that knew that I was getting my selection were immediately like, hey, man, what happened? How'd it go? What'd you get? And it was like we told them, and it was cheers erupted because everybody is so invested in everybody else. We all care about, hey, you want multi? We want you to get multi too, man. There might be some playful, like, oh, you're going hilo.

Yeah.

But there's always excitement when people pass a test, get what they want, even just, hey, man, that flight went really well. Like, high five, bro. Way to go.

That's awesome. A couple of things that you said resonated. First of all, you mentioned that going to the mess is not all about getting liquored up now. It's actually something we've really noticed. I find my generation of people watching the new generation watching the students come through, they are a lot like, yeah, they're still having drinks, but they're more focused on, like, hey, let's get some laughs out of singing karaoke together. Let's do whatever activity. Let's play this game. But it's way less about getting drunk than it used to be.

Yeah.

In a really good way.

In a really good way. The focus is no longer on, hey, I need a whole bunch of beer to forget how my week went.

Yeah, they seem happier.

It's more about, hey, let's have a social beer and at the same time we're going to sing karaoke, we're going to play some pool or some Nintendo, whatever.

Yeah. And then the other thing is, it seems like now we've heard this before from some people. It seems like teamwork is still very important in the flight training world amongst the students.

Hugely important. It's tough for me because I'm on a course of two mhm, but every time either one of us comes down from a flight because we're essentially doing the same thing back to back, right. Hey, how'd it go? How'd your RNAV approach go? What did you do in your loop that made it better than mine? Hey, how's your landings today? What's the winds like? And when we screw something up, we really want to talk about it. The cliche is you can't make all the mistakes yourself or there's not enough time to make all the mistakes yourself. And that is 100% true. We really work together as a team to learn from each other so that we're not going to make the same mistakes.

Yeah. So yeah, you would say that the teamwork is huge.

Oh, huge, big thing. Yeah.

This next question, I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on. I get a lot of questions from listeners who are starting pilot training. They're looking at joining in their late 20s. Maybe they're earlier, mid thirty s. And I get these questions of people saying, hey, listen, I'm starting this as a second career. I'm a little bit nervous that maybe I'll be too old. Maybe I'll have, uh my reactions are slower, or maybe my ability to take in all the information might be not as good as when I was 20. How have you found it? Because you're starting this now in your mid 30s. How have you found that experience?

Honestly, it hasn't been that bad. I think some of the axo training has helped me keep a step ahead, but in general, I think the maturity that you bring to the training scenario outweighs all of that other stuff. Is my reaction time slower than when I was 20? Yeah, probably. Do I have a little more trouble remembering things? Yeah, probably. But I'm also more mature so I can recognize those things. I know that I have to put a little extra effort maybe more than the 22 year old does to study a little harder to know exactly what it's going to feel like in the airplane or what maneuver I'm going to do. Have I forgotten things? Yeah. On my Clear Hood test, I was about to go into my aerobatic sequence and I hadn't done my G warm up and I nearly blew my entire test by going right into it just for fun.

Can you explain to the audience what a G warm up is.

So a G warm up is a maneuver, uh, that we do prior to doing anything that increases the G's on your body. And basically what we do is we speed up the airplane a little bit, and we do a hard left turn or right turn, whatever direction you want to go, and you pull three G. And it's to get your body just feeling the g's a little bit. Just get your blood flowing, see how are you feeling on that day, because sometimes it just won't be the right day. And you roll out after about 90 degrees and then you dip the nose down so you feel some negative G's. And for about 510 seconds, you want to feel light in your seat. And, uh, hopefully not lightheaded, but that's kind of what you're checking for. Feel your body and feel what you're doing. And when you dip the nose down, you're also going to speed up a lot more. And as you speed up now you can pull up and turn back the other way. And now you're going for something like four G's. You're trying to really feel the G force on your body again and just see how you're going to react. The other piece of it is how's your plane going to react. Because when you pull three 4g, when you put some negative G in there, if there's something loose in the cockpit, if there's something that your airplane is just not quite right, you're going to feel it or you're going to see it flying by your head when you do negative G. So it's really a test for both your body and your aircraft to make sure that you're ready to do the maneuvers that you're about to do.

Right. And it's better to find it out doing that than in the middle of a loop.

Yeah. When you're at the top of the loop and you start to gray out because you weren't prepared for it. Yeah, that's not the right time to find out.

Right on. Uh, that makes sense.

So, uh, I almost forgot the G warm up. But because I had studied enough, I said to the check, ride officer, are you ready to go for the aerobatic sequence? He said, whenever you're ready. And I was about to dip the nose and start going, and I went, oh, yeah, g warm up. And it was only because I had the maturity to go through I sat in my room for days ahead of time going through exactly what I was going to do on my Clearhood test, because I have that maturity. Am I a little older? And did I forget it? Yes. But I had the maturity to study everything ahead of time. And I did remember, it really emphasizes.

As well how much chair flying pays dividends, because I said this to someone on the phone the other day, someone was asking me for advice, and I said, chair flying is my number one piece of advice. Because you can either do a check let's say you want to have done that check 20 times before you're going to know it. You can take 20 flights to do that, or you can do that check 20 times tonight in your room. And now you have that amount of not exactly the same amount of knowledge as if you're doing it in the plane, but you're so much further ahead.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

And it pays dividends every single time. It is the number one, in my opinion, the number one thing you can do to make yourself a better pilot, especially during your flight training.

Yeah, absolutely. For sure.

What do you think is the most important thing you do to keep yourself ready to succeed in flight training?

The most important thing that I think people can do two things, I guess. The first one is study. Like we talked about earlier in the show, you are responsible for your success or failure. And the amount of effort that you put in will be reflected in the grades that you get in your flights. So you have to have the maturity and the self discipline to really put the effort in and study on. Uh, the other side of that though is you also need to know how to relax. If you are always studying, you're always stressing, you're always just focused on the mission and the flying and like I need to understand everything. You're going to burn yourself out.

Yeah, for sure.

And it's going to negatively affect you. The military is doing a lot of work trying to promote mental health performance. And I think a lot of the skills that they teach you for older guys like us are kind of inherent. We do them already because we've been doing this long enough. But for some of the younger folks coming in that have never been under this kind of stress, using those techniques and making sure if the gym is your outlet, go to the gym, go for a run, go for a bike ride. Just make sure you take time away from the studying, m? Away from the airplanes. Or just go sit and watch the airplanes. Don't think about the mission or the training or anything. Just go watch the sky, just enjoy, take a walk. You really have to have an outlet, a way to separate yourself from the training because otherwise you're going to burn out.

Mhm, I think that's really solid advice. I know. When I was on course, my ritual was basically work like crazy all week. Friday night was completely off. Saturday was off and Friday night was always at the mess. Saturday night was usually like, I don't know, go see a movie or something with your friends and then Sunday back at it. And you got to take that time or you will burn out 100%.

Yeah, absolutely.

You'll never make it through all your phases of flight training. If you're going seven days a week, no, you won't. So the last question is actually second last because I have a small question I want to ask you at the end, but what has been the biggest piece of wisdom you've gained so far that you would pass on to future phase one students? So if somebody is listening, they're hoping to join or they're waiting to go on their phase one flight training, what's one piece of advice you would give them?

Listen to the show and it's a little tongue in cheek. Uh, every interview that you've done, you ask those kind of questions right at the end and every single person has given a different answer. And I think everybody on there has hit on something that's really important. For me, I find the mental resilience thing to be absolutely critical. You're going to fail a flight, you're going to do something wrong, whether it's a test, a flight, you just screw up and it's kind of an officer development fail. At some point you're going to do something wrong and you need to have the mental resilience to go, hey, I screwed that up, why did I screw that up? How do I prevent it from happening again and then move forward?

Mhm.

So for me, that's the most important thing is having that mental resilience, understanding the constructive criticism that you get, understanding that you're going to be evaluated on virtually every flight for the rest of your career. So mental resilience is key. But a lot of your other guests, because I've listened to all your shows, a lot of your other guests have come up with other things and I think they're all really important. And for each person there might be something different. But for me, it's the mental resilience.

Yeah, I like that. And it also kind of made me think of if everyone I have on this show has a different answer, that also means that most people you talk to in the mess will have a different answer. And so remember that you can ask people for advice, you can ask instructors for advice. You see at the mess, can ask your peers for advice, and everyone's going to be a wealth of knowledge and various perspectives.

Yeah, absolutely. I guess that goes back to that teamwork thing that we were talking about earlier. Uh, your team is your student cohort other guys on your course, other courses ahead of you and behind you. But it is also it's your family, it's your friends outside of the military, it's, uh, your instructors, it's people that might not even be your instructor, but they're instructing at the school. There is a wealth of knowledge out there. And when something goes right or when something goes wrong, you need to talk with people about it and figure out, uh, why it went wrong and how to move forward.

Yeah. And I guarantee instructors are more than. Happy to take that time to chat and pass on their wisdom. And as I hope has been highlighted on the show, they want to see students thrive and they want to see them doing well and succeeding. So guarantee if you ask for help or advice, you're going to get it for sure.

Yeah. There's no selection course anymore. Everybody there is there to help you succeed.

My last question is at this point in your training, what are you hoping to fly?

I'm hoping to go, uh, four three six squadron C 130 J models in Trenton.

Okay.

Is my hope. So like I said, I got my selection today for multi engine, so we're.

One step closer to the goal.

So we're one step closer to the goal. That was a big step, but yeah, I'm part of the Alpha jet thing. I was never operational. It was always a training role. And then I went into successive staff tours where again, there was some operational ish in there, but I'd never really been towards the pointy end. And, uh, I think that what the J model does between there's some strategic airlift in there, but there's also some tactical airlift.

Yeah, for sure.

I really think that's a cool job and I'd like to be part of that. And I also think that with my EW background, there's some lessons learned and some learning that can be done within the Air Force as a whole, but particularly in the air mobility community surrounding electronic warfare.

That's a great answer. Well, that's going to wrap it up. Scott, thanks so much for coming in today and taking the time to be here. I know that you're really busy as a student, but I'm really looking forward to checking in with you when you finish phase two. How far out is that?

It's about a month. I got a month and then I'm, uh, phase three in August.

Well, we'll talk then. We'll see if there's enough new stuff to check in after phase two, but certainly after phase three, we'll be checking in and I'm really looking forward to that.

For sure. Absolutely. Thank you very much, Brian, for, uh, having me. And thank you for doing this podcast. Great info.

Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thanks. Okay, that wraps up part one of Life as a Student, as well as Scott's Adventure switching from Axo to pilot. For our next episode, I'll be sitting down with my good friend from flight training days, Sky Simpson, and we'll be talking all things J models. It's a great chat, you don't want to miss it. Do you have questions or comments about anything you've heard or would you or someone you know make a great guest for the show? Please reach out to us, uh, at thepiloprojectpodcast@gmail.com or on all social media at atpodpilotproject. We really do love to hear from our listeners. Last month, for the first time ever, we had over 2000 listens in one month and I am so excited about it. I want to thank you, the listeners, for sharing the show with your friends and helping to make that happen. We're still looking to grow, so we could still use your help with the big three that's like and follow on social media. Share with your friends and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.