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All right, we're ready for departure. Here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the

best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF.

Brought to you by Skies magazine and RCAF today. I'm your

host, Brian Morrison. With me today is my friend and former

instructor, Mike Hool. Mike, welcome to the show and thanks

so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Before we get started, let's go over Mike's bio.

Mike graduated from flight training in 2003 and was

posted to four two nine tactical airlift squadron flying the CC

130 H model Hercules. While training on

the Herc four two nine squadron was stood down and all personnel then

joined. Four three six squadron. During the seven years, he was

posted to Four Three Six Squadron, he deployed seven times in support

of Op Impact. In 2011, he was posted to

three Canadian Forces flight training school where he instructed on

the CT 145 King Air for six years.

In 2017, he was posted to the Combined Air

Operations Center, or Koch, in one Canadian Air Division

NORAD region as a Senior Operations Duty

Officer. In 2019, he was posted back

to three Cfffts as the Standards Flight Commander.

In 2022 he was posted to Air Operations

Training standards evaluation and training in two Canadian

Air Division as the Deputy Senior Staff Officer for

Air Operations Training and Chief check pilot on the

CT 145. In 2023, he

was posted to the Future Air Crew Training, or Fact Training

Detachment Team as the deputy lead for the team.

Today, we will be focusing on his time on The Hercules and his

experiences in Afghanistan, as well as how those relate to his

Remembrance Day experience. Okay, so Mike, we go

way back. You were my multi engine instructor and I was your first student.

But I don't know this about you. Where did aviation start for?

It started for me way back when I was a kid.

Both my grandfathers retired from the Canadian Armed Forces

in Trenton, Ontario, at Safe B, Trenton, and my one

grandfather on my father's side, he remained working

for the RCAF and the Supply Division

as a civilian after he retired. And so I

spent all my summers in and around Trenton Belleville,

watching the aircraft, constantly flying, and it

always captured my, uh, attention and my

interest. And growing up in London, Ontario,

they.

Had the London Air Show, which was.

A huge air show. Ah, throughout

the still is very much a huge air show

today. One, if not the top air show in North America. And

as it was back in the day, so it always captivated, uh, my attention as

a young kid. And I remember one time me and my

grandfather. I was about six or seven. We were at our trailer

about an.

Hour north of Trenton and, uh, we.

Were out fishing on our boat and I saw this herc come over

the ridge, over the lake and he dropped down to about 200ft, and as he

approached a boat, he started rocking the wings. But then I noticed another

herc come in behind him and start doing the same thing. This happened

six times over, so there were six hercs in a row, all

rocking their wings ass. And I turned to my grandfather, I said, Grandpa,

what's going on? He goes, oh, it's just the boys saying hi.

And I'm like, are, uh, they really saying hi to us? He goes, oh yeah, they

recognize my boat. And he wasn't kidding. Uh, I thought he

was putting me on. And as a seven year old chaching

his grandson, but he wasn't the, uh, first aircraft

commander, recognized my grandfather's boat, obviously knew my

grandfather from supply, and started rocking the wings and told the rest of the boys to say

hi to. So that right there. When I was seven

years old, I.

Was like, I want to do that.

Ah, one day, I want to figure.

Out how to do that ah.

And that's what pretty much had me from the get go.

And later on I got to go full circle and I got

to do that.

That's so cool. I also grew up going to the London Air

Show, and it was a very formative experience for

me as well. It is a great air show.

Amazing.

Yeah.

How did you find your flight training.

Experience in the forces? Intense.

The adage open mouth, insert fire hose was not

a lie. Yeah, you really had to be on your game

every day. Another adage that you say you're always two flights

away from failing, and so you were

constantly studying hard, putting in a lot of

effort into learning the theory and

learning the skills in the simulator and then, um, putting it to

practical use every day when you went up flying.

And it wasn't the easiest thing to.

Go through, but I'm very glad I.

Went through it and it helped chart.

My way forward in my learning. Throughout my aviation

career in the armed.

Forces, did you have anything specific that

helps you get through that stress and the pressure of that time?

You have to take time for yourself. I mean, yes, you're

studying all the.

Time, but you always have to take.

At least a day for yourself. So on Saturday, Saturday

was downtime actually, I'd say Friday at

four till about Sunday morning.

It was downtime me time, do whatever.

I had to do to relax with the guys or by myself. And then

Sunday afternoon generally is when I started getting back into the books.

For another five day push. Yeah, I totally agree

with that.

So you get through your flight training and you end up selected

for the H model. Was that what you wanted?

Like I was saying, uh, with my story with my grandfather, flying

the Hercs was always what I wanted to do in Trenton.

Specifically when I first was on the.

Multi engine flying school, just before I got my wings, they ask you

what you want to fly?

And I basically said hercs anything in Trenton?

Because at the time, there were three squadrons flying hercs in

Trenton. So whether it's the Search and Rescue Squadron, which was my first

choice, and then the two tactical, uh, airlift

squadrons, I was like, Anything Trenton hercs, I'm

good. And I end up getting four to.

Nine tactical airlift in Trenton. So you must have been

thrilled. Oh, I was. I was ecstatic, yeah.

And I didn't realize it at the.

Time, but Four Two Nine was what.

Led me to realize why those Hercs were flying over

my trailer, because that's the tactical training area for the Hercs.

For the tactical Hercs, they have a massive area that goes from

Trenton all the way north up to Petawa into Quebec

Hills. And my trailer was within that area.

So I realized there was actually a significant point just to the

west of our trailer, which was constantly used

for training and places to go due to a simulated drop, and that's

why they were going by there. So once I got

qualified, especially when I became an aircraft commander, I made

sure to route our routes to go over my trailer a couple of

times to say hi to everyone, uh, who was camping.

That's really cool.

So you arrived in Trenton and you thought you'd be flying with Four Two

Nine Squadron, but that quickly became, uh.

A posting to Four Three Six Squadron, right? Yeah,

it sure did.

So the RCAF decided they were going to stand

down Four Two Nine, because, like I said, 429436 were the two tactical

airlift squadrons. Generally, when you're posted to one, you did

four years there, and then you got posted the other one to do your

second tour. And guys would just swap in the hallways. Basically,

we were just down the hall in ten hangar. So it wasn't that,

uh, uh, far of a stretch. You were just in a different group of people.

And your second tour is more developed as an aircraft commander,

and then to be coming to teach the young first officers from

there.

So when I was on my Otu.

I got the news that 49 was standing down and I was post a

Four Three Six, and I thought this would be a brilliant idea

to play.

A little bit of a joke on my wife.

So I came home from school that day because I was on the

Otu, still in ground school, and I said.

Uh, Kim, I just got

posted. And she's like, what do you mean? We just

got here. I know, but I'm

posted I'm posted.

To Four Three Six Corner, and she didn't know four Three Six was just down the

hallway.

She's like, well, then, where are we moving to now? I

said, oh, we're not moving.

I'm, um, changing offices down the hall in Ten Hanger.

And then I got the look, and any married man who's

overstepped himself knows the look. And she got up

and she grabbed my hand, and we went towards the front door. And I said, well, where are

we going? She goes, oh, we're going shopping. You're paying.

You don't ever give me news like that without, uh, flowers and chocolate in

your hand. And that's not a joke you ever play again. I was

like, okay, yes, ma'am. Yeah. It was a yes,

ma'am moment. And, uh, what sounded like

a funny prank in my head was not a funny prank in

reality. And then, uh, I literally paid for

it.

So when you arrived at Four Three Six, the squadron was steadily

increasing its presence in Afghanistan. After you

achieved an upgrade and did your basic tactical air training course, it

was time to deploy.

What were you feeling at that time? Scared.

Yeah. The reality of what we did

became real.

Up until that point, the squadron hadn't been deploying over the world. They were

moving equipment all over the world and doing stuff.

But we never really did what we.

Did in training for real since

Somalia. And so now it was becoming real. And when the first

guys went out the door for six month tours at that time,

I went for two month tours. When the first couple, uh, of six month

tours went out the line, we.

Thought, okay, it'll be over in a

year. Yeah.

They'll be back, and we'll be done with this.

That's what we always think.

So what we always think.

But it's not what happened in reality. Obviously. We went off for another ten

years, and so my turn came to go to

Afghanistan, my first tour, and then I left on my son's first

birthday. So it was a little rough.

Yeah.

That must have been really hard.

Yeah.

I got to see him take his first two steps five days before

I left. And then when I came home, he ran up to

me in the terminal. So I had missed a

lot.

Yeah.

And that happened repeatedly. I missed significant

events in his first five years.

Yeah.

Anything that big thing to happen, I was never home, which really

sucked. But, uh, having a very strong spouse,

keeping the home front, uh, going was the key to that success

there.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's so crucial. When you're gone that much, you have to

have somebody who's independent.

Oh, totally. I paid for the house, but it wasn't my

house. Yeah. And when I would come

home, I had to integrate into her routine.

It wasn't my routine.

It was her routine. So how do I fit back into this routine?

Because I'm home now for the next

month, being on leave, but then I'm going to be

flying with the squadron.

Again, doing regular missions all around the world, and then I'm gearing

up to go back overseas again. So, uh, I was gone

six to eight months of the year for seven straight years.

So, again, it's her routine.

It's good that you realize that, though, because that's a big part of

the friction some people get when they come home, is not

realizing that you have to now integrate into someone

else's routine because they've learned to get along without you.

Yeah, well, before we came home on our and they do this for every.

Uh, tour that wears on, but they would have

a meeting with all the.

Crews before they go home. And not just the air crews, I mean, even the army guys who

are gone for six to nine months at a time and give us

these briefs.

To say, hey, this is what you.

Need to expect when you come home.

That she's had her own

routine for so long.

And it's not just you come home.

And everything's back to normal.

It's a bit of a disruption for.

Her to actually have you back in the house. So to get to

climatize and to realize that reality was a bit

of.

A shock, but I saw it right.

Off the bat and what do you.

Need me to do?

Canadians developed a reputation for doing whatever was asked

of us, even when other countries said it couldn't be done. Can you give us

an example of that?

Yeah, one example was, again on my first tour, we were

asked to move a high Mars system, the high mobility air

rocket system for the Americans, because the Americans

wouldn't move it themselves.

When the Americans were flying over in.

Afghanistan with their Hercules transport aircraft,

they were putting weight restrictions on their airplanes, and we weren't. We were just

like, it's a herc, it's what it's designed to do, let's move it.

So, uh, when the American

Chaoc asked.

Us to do it, and for the.

Listeners, a Chaoc is a combined air.

Operations center, we said, yeah, sure, we'll do it.

So we flew to Baghram Air Force Base from

Kandahar, and then it was.

Two trucks with three double pallets of.

Missiles of rockets that we had to bring to

Kandahar for them to fire off the next day. And then

we brought them all back, and it was task and a

half bringing that system down to Kandahar. The first

truck was the loader that

would pick up, it had a crane on it, would pick up the missiles off

the rack and put it into the rocket launcher. And

it had self deflating tires, so the guy had to

lower the pressure down to ten PSI and really

brought the height of the truck down just.

Enough so it could get back, roll.

Back into the back of the herc.

And it took us an hour, a.

Little over an hour to get it into the back of the herc.

By the time it rolled in, the truck had

six inches of clearance on either side and four inches on

top. It was a snug fit.

And it was a young corporal that was driving the truck. And when he got

in there and we said, stop, he tried opening the door and he realized

he wasn't getting out. And he's like, I've got a meeting I got to go

to. And I said, who's your sergeant? Who's your supervisor? And he

goes, the guy over there. So I went to him and said, um, sergeant, I had

to let you know your corporal's coming with us for a ride to Candel

Harbor.

We'll bring him back, but we're going.

To be about 3 hours because he's stuck in that truck and

he's going for a ride. And he's like, oh, okay.

And the young corporal is like, I'm doing what? And back then, we were

low when we departed out of Bagger, and we were doing low tactical

flying, banking and cranking before we would pick up enough speed and

climb as fast as we could to get up to height. So he was getting

a backseat ride and facing backwards in this

big truck in the back of the Herc, not being able to see outside the

windows and just going for a roller coaster ride.

Oh, my gosh, I'm surprised he didn't get sick. But I know

when we got to Canahar and he drove the truck off, he's

like, I need a break. I'm like, I don't blame you.

I would not want to I wouldn't want to be in the back

with experiencing that, let alone him being stuck there because

he wasn't used to flying in Hertz and especially the way we flew

them at the time. So, yeah, we brought, uh, the first

truck there. We went back the second truck, and.

Then we went back two more times.

To get all the missiles. So that was a whole day

of flying. And we got the last load to Kandahar.

They turned to us and said, do you want to watch us fire these things

off?

And we're like, yes, we do. So the

next day, we went out.

To the Kandahar range, and they set it all up.

And again, then the realization of

you're.

In a war zone became real because.

When these things get fired off, someone's going to

die.

These things are meant to make big explosions.

And we fired off every single rocket they

had in the span of 40 minutes.

And once they're all done, they packed it all up and said, we'll see you in the ramp

tomorrow so you.

Can take the two trucks back to Bagroom.

Was that on a range or was that at enemy

targets?

They were shooting at enemy targets from the Candehar range.

Wow. Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

And it was a successive barrage until, uh,

the whole rack was done. Then they would pick up the next rack and load it in and,

uh, fire them all off again.

That's crazy.

So your bread and butter in Afghanistan was dropping

container delivery systems or CDs bundles to

forward operating bases or Fobs. Why were

those drops so important to troops and Fobs?

And why not just truck them in? At the time?

I don't know if Afghanistan still holds the term, but at the time, it was

the most heavily mined country in the world.

You couldn't go walking onto dirt

roads or dirt fields with not running the.

Risk of stepping on a landmine. Even when we flew into

Baghram Air Force Base, there were areas in between the concrete

that you would see would.

Have flags on them standing up, and.

Those flags were identified landmines that hadn't been dealt with yet as they

built the air base. So you were always told, stand the hard

pack, stand on the concrete and the pavement. Don't walk off it

unless you know it's a cleared area.

So for all these Fobs, and there.

Are many Fobs, Canadian Fobs, American Fobs.

All over the place, for them to have all

the equipment that they need, whether

it's food, ammunition, blankets,

whatever, to have it trucked out there,

uh, was extremely dangerous.

The Taliban loved to put landmines and anti tank

mines underneath the roads and blow

vehicles, uh, up as they were.

Going by, namely the NATO

vehicles as.

They were going by, because they were obviously the enemy to them, right?

So it was very dangerous for them to truck anything

to a Fob. So that's where CDs

drops were, for.

The most part, the key choice of.

Delivery to getting troops on the ground what they

needed when they needed it. The Americans were doing CDs

drops, namely at night, on night vision goggles.

Our, uh, hercs at the time didn't have were not

MVG compatible. The cop it wasn't MVG

compatible. So we did our drops during the day, which

was the most dangerous time to

do CDs drops because they can see you

coming. But that's what we trained for, so.

That'S what we did.

What was your craziest story involving a CDs drop at a

Fob?

Got a couple of them, but definitely.

Uh, the one, uh, Fob Cobra rings a

bell.

So we did two to Fob cobra.

The one was probably the craziest. We had been flying

around the country doing

three different legs that day, and we thought our day was done when we

landed. And as we were pulling into our parking spot, I noticed I

looked over and I saw the K loader with.

Uh, eight bundle pack of

CDs on board. And I was like,

I think we are not done the day.

And, uh, the AC is like, what do you mean? I said, look over there. There's a K

loader full of stuff. And I think we're about to get told we're going

flying again. And literally as the engine

shut down and the crew door opened up, our

ops officer came flying up into the cockpit and he's like, how

much gas do you have on board? We said, for what?

And he said to go to Fob Cobra, which we had just done a drop

there the day prior to go do an emergency

CDs drop. They were running low on ammunition. They

need supplies now. And so the navigator

looked at what we had left and said, well we

have enough. But it's uh, basically 15 to 20

minutes of extra gas. And that's it. Because we've been flying around all day

long.

And at the time if you asked.

For gas in Kandahar Airfield, it took

two to 3 hours to get fuel.

Wow.

Uh, so we didn't have that kind of time. So he's like, okay, sounds

good. And just as he said, sounds good, you could

feel the bundles being loaded onto the plane.

It was all going to the back. We're like, okay, here we go. So we just pulled out all

our maps from the day before that we had already had in our

bags and pulled it out. Quickly started looking at it and said, we're doing

it again. So the

riggers normally take 4 hours to rig a, uh, load in the

back. It was done in 20 minutes. I think every rigger on the

base was in the back of our airplane rigging the whole load.

And after about 30, 40 minutes

they.

Said, fired up, go. So we did.

So we fired up. We went directly to our

initial point where we're at altitude and we're going to start dropping down to

200ft. And uh, I called up the

ground controller on the same frequency I used the day

prior. And the response I got

back wasn't from the ground controller. It was from an A ten close air

support pilot who was orbiting the drop zone. He said,

is F 80, you got to hold. There's a

Chinook helicopter on the ground.

Wounded troops being loaded.

And we're like, okay, so we start holding and we're waiting

and Ange, how much time do we have?

And he said, you got 15 minutes before we're turning this plane around.

We're going back. Okay? And then,

uh, now it's getting really

antsy.

The time's ticking away and

we're looking.

At it and we're like, this is.

Not how things are supposed to go. This is one thing I said, this is not how things

are supposed to go. What I'd forgotten was we

had reporters on board who had gone for us for the

day. And that was the line that made.

The newspapers back home.

AirDrop on a Wingsner prayer. This is not uh, how things are

supposed to go. I wasn't focused on who was in the

back. I was focused on the job. So we're getting antsy.

The angel looks up again. And he goes, seven

minutes. And I'm just about to get on the radio with the ATM pilot

again.

And he said, ISFA day clear?

Day to hot, go.

And immediately, aircraft commander, he just dropped.

The nose over, pull back the power, and we just went right down,

down.

200Ft, cranking through the

valleys, popped up, door

opens up, run altitude on airspeed.

Green on the logo is out the back. I actually got a video of

the logo and out the back.

And then, uh, low clear.

Immediately, he starts turning to the right because there's a mountain in front of us.

We're running out of mountain. So he's running at a distance. And

so he starts turning and climbing. And we got up, uh, above the ridge

because we were in a valley. And at this point,

the navigator is like, you guys got to go direct the button

of the runway.

We are going on fumes.

So that's exactly what we did. Point the airplane right towards the button of the

runway in Kandahar. And I got a hold of the area

controller and know we're inbound immediate

landing for the stop. And he says negative. I need you to go

over to this point and hold for an hour. There's a repatriation ceremony

going on.

And I said negative.

We're declaring emergency for low fuel.

I'm not asking your permission to land. I'm telling you we're

landing.

We'll keep it quiet.

We will shut down the engine inboards as soon as we touch down. We won't

use reverse, but we don't have a choice. And the controller

came back to me, said, confirm what kind of aircraft you are.

We're at Charlie 130 and you're low on gas.

Yes, it's been a very long day.

Okay, cleared in.

Direct the runway.

Keep it quiet.

So that's exactly what we did.

We trying to be as respectful because.

Usually when there's a repatriation ceremony going on, the airfield is shut down.

There are no aircraft ops for respect for what's happening

on the ramp. But we didn't have a choice. We were actually so

concerned when we were taxing back to our ramp that one of

the engines might flame out on the taxi back. We, uh,

were less than 1000 pounds.

On each main tank, which is crazy for a

herc.

It's super crazy because you can get to a point where there's still

fuel in there, but the pumps won't pick it up

anymore.

So, yeah, we were nervous. Yeah.

And for listeners, for anyone who's got a little bit of experience

flying, that sounds like a lot of fuel. But it's so

little fuel for a hurricane. It's wild.

Yeah.

Was not a comfortable situation.

Yeah, no kidding.

Did you ever do any drops to Canadian Fobs?

I did.

We did one, uh, drop to a Canadian Fob. I did

five drops overall in my time in

Afghanistan. One was to a Canadian fob.

They were middle of a firefight.

They were low on ammo again, it was a get, uh, up and

go kind of moment. So, uh, we were

going in for the run and we noticed usually

they light up the point where they want us to

drop the load on with smoke. And we noticed that, uh,

we were flying right over top of the Fob and the smoke was on the far.

Side of the wall. And as

we're coming in, the AC.

Turned to the NAV, said, what do.

You think about throwing this bundle on

purposely? A little short for some of the.

Bundles maybe to land inside the Fob. And this is a whole dangerous concept

because you got these bundles coming in, they could land on the roof of

something and break through.

They could hurt people.

These guys are engaged in a firefight, so they're up on the

walls. And we said, yeah, let's do it. So we purposely threw it 100

meters short of the, uh, there were six or

eight bundle CDs. Four of the bundles

landed inside the Fob walls and the other ones landed

outside. And we peeled off,

went directly back to Candehar, which took us 30 minutes

before we shut down and immediately ran into ops and

said, what happened? Yeah, and we found

out by the.

Time we got back, half the guys.

Had come off the wall, opened up the bundles, grabbed the bullets

back on.

The wall, and by the time we.

Had landed, the fight was over.

Awesome. Um, and they were very appreciative

of.

Us actually dropping stuff right into the middle.

Yeah.

I mean, it would be pretty sketchy to have to go outside the walls to

collect the ammo.

Yeah.

It's not something I would want to do in the middle of a firefight

personally. So that's where our squad really got.

Our pride from, was getting troops what they needed when they

needed in not.

The most ideal situations.

What's the feeling when you land and you found out that it

landed exactly where you wanted to and now they're safe?

Purulation.

Yeah, we were just chomping. It was

awesome.

It's what we do, it's what we.

Train for, and we did it. And

guys survived because of it.

So it was awesome.

Yeah. That's so cool.

So what was life like in Kandahar Airfield? I've

heard the, uh, rocket attacks there could be pretty intense. Did you ever

experience any?

Yep, one of my tours, we were.

Actually counting how many rocket attacks were is how many missions we were flying.

And there were more rocket attacks than we had missions. And

sometimes we'd have seven rocket attacks in one day. Some days you'd have

none. You'd be sleeping in the middle of night and all of a sudden you hear a big boom

go off. You kind of got acclimatized to it.

Mhm, which isn't the best thing to have happen. Like

a rocket attack is going on.

Get up, go to one of the shelters, wait. For the all clear, then go

back to bed. But I remember one time I was in the

gym working out in the American gym.

I was on the treadmill, and the.

Gym walls all got mirrors around them. And it's

a big, big tent. And, uh, as I'm

running with my.

Earbuds in, listening to music, you could

feel the concussion of the boom

kind.

Of hit you in the chest, and you could see all the mirrors kind

of bow in and bow back out.

Wow.

And immediately off the treadmill, everyone's

hitting the deck. I'm, um, like, okay, that one was close.

So after the first 30 seconds, people get up.

They're all rushing outside to go into the shelters.

I just beelined it down the road.

Directly to our tent, because the rest of the crew was

there, and they knew I was at the gym, but they also knew the rock

attack was over by the gym. So I wanted to make sure they knew I was okay. But,

yeah, I hightailed it down the.

Road back to our tent, and

there are two Hungarian I don't know if.

They were pilots, but two Hungarian guys had gotten directly hit

from that particular blast. They ended

up surviving, but they suffered.

Some pretty big wounds in their

intestines.

How do you feel living in a place where rocket attacks

can happen at any time?

It's definitely nerve wracking, but you can't

focus on it.

Otherwise you're not going to be able to do your job.

And like I said, they happen so often, and

99% of the time, not.

Happening near where you are.

You just become numb to

it.

And until one's happening really close to you, you don't

really think about it. You hear the boom. Here goes

the air raid sirens.

Ten minutes later, air raid sirens for all

clear. Go back on with your day.

Flip your page over.

Keep reading your book. Yeah, you couldn't focus on it.

You really had to compartmentalize a lot of things when you're over there in

order to do your job, from what.

You saw, from what you heard, for.

How you felt nothing at home, you really had to put it in its own

little compartment and deal with it.

At a different time.

Did that one feel different where it was so close?

Oh, it had my heart racing.

Yeah, that one definitely caught, uh, my

attention.

But ironically, after that, it just went.

Back to being I mean, I've caught.

Reading a book here. Boom.

I never really had any secondary effects from it.

Okay. It's like I'm, um, one of the lucky ones. Keep

going, man, that's crazy. It

is.

Again, uh, compartmentalization

is a great thing to be able to do.

Yeah.

When Canadians were killed, they needed to be repatriated

to Canada. You've already mentioned repatriation

ceremonies. Did you take part in any repatriation flights?

And can you explain their repatriation process?

Yeah, I took part in at least

70 repatriation parades.

And I brought back or started the.

Journey home for 13 of

the Canadians.

Who had fallen in Afghanistan.

So how it would work is

we get message that one or more

Canadian.

Troops had been killed in action, and that we

needed, uh, to get the.

Bodies from Kandahar to the

base that.

We flew out of in the Middle.

East, just south of Dubai. For they can be

picked up by an Airbus, uh, to be then brought back to

Trenton. So there would be a brief

patching ceremony on the ramp in

Kandahar.

And you'd have anywhere from 1502,000

troops.

Not just Canadians, Americans, Aussies,

French, whoever.

Was there would come out. And we did this for every country.

That was having one would line up.

In two big groups on either side of the back of the plane,

and the bodies would be loaded on. And then we would

take the bodies, fly the bodies to the Middle East. We'd have another

repatriation ceremony for the bodies coming off the

plane to be put into storage until the

airbots can.

Come pick them up, which is usually a couple of days later,

we'd have.

Another repatriation ceremony for them to go on to the Airbus.

And then when the Airbus arrived back in

Trenton, there would be another repatriation ceremony for when

the bodies came off, and then were placed into the hearses to be

taken down highway 401 to Toronto.

So basically, for every group of

fallen.

Soldiers that there were, you generally would have four

repat ceremonies. Sometimes it was three.

Um, one of my experiences, it was a three repatriation

ceremony because when we.

Offloaded the bodies out of the air.

Base in the Middle East, they literally went off the Herc and onto the Airbus because

the Airbus was already waiting.

Okay, so they combined two into one.

That makes sense.

And how many repatriation parades did you.

Say you've been to?

At least 70. I mean, even if you're not

flying an actual ceremony yourself, or a

repet crew yourself, if you're not working, you're

tending on the ramp. Whether it's in Kanahar or it's in the

Middle East, you're attending the parade as the body's arriving

or departing.

What's that like? Not fun.

Um, that's

the area I had the.

Hardest time dealing with, with my time.

In Afghanistan, was the

repatriation ceremonies.

And turns out it wasn't so much the repatriation ceremonies that got to

me.

It was seeing the

brothers in arms.

Sisters in arms of those who had.

Fallen, hurting really bad.

That tore me up. I carried

that. What I found out later that I.

Dealt with through mental, uh, health therapy.

Was pent up grief for them. I was grieving

for them. I didn't have time to grieve for them. I had a job

to do.

I had to get in the plane of fly, go in compartmentalize,

put it back your mind, deal with it later. Well, uh, I chose to deal with it

16 years later when it started.

Really building up for me.

Those weren't flights we ever wanted to.

Do, but it was definitely a job we had

to do.

Mhm, do any of those

repatriation flights.

Stand out to you? One does,

specifically.

I was at the end of one of my tours. We had actually

already handed in all.

Of our flying gear.

It was the day before we were leaving.

The AirBoss was already in the ramp in the base

south of Dubai.

We're going home the next day, and at 830 in the

morning, we got.

The call that four soldiers had died and they

needed a repat ceremony that.

Night in order to bring them back.

For the Airbus to take home the next day.

And there were no other crews available

that could do it.

The two crews, uh, were up in Afghanistan, were already flying around, so they were

not available. And the other crew that was in Dubai was our

replacement crew. They had just arrived, so they were not ready

to go flying. And so they asked us, can you

guys go do this trip? And we said,

if guys go and sign all our gear out for us,

and if they were able to pre flight the plane for us, we can go

to know somewhat get some sleep now, because it was going to be an all

nighter that we were going.

To pull to do this, then, yeah, of

course.

So that's exactly what we did. We went to bed, got about three

or 4 hours of sleep. We showed up 1 hour prior to takeoff.

Normally show up 3 hours prior to takeoff. We showed up 1 hour.

We were handed, uh, all of our.

Gear that we had signed back in.

Got right in the plane, fired up.

Flew into Kandahar, and then did the.

Repatriation ceremony in Kandahar on the ramp.

And I remember once the parade was

done, we would always give

again the brothers and sisters of,

uh, the fallen.

Time, about five to ten minutes in the back of the plane to say

their last goodbyes.

And I remember looking in

the back, seeing what again?

I knew it bothered me, but I had to walk away from it, I

couldn't see it.

And I looked over on the ramp.

And I saw this young captain. And I recognized him

from my time at RMC.

It was Captain Matt Daw. I knew

Matt? Not closely.

He was in another squadron from myself. I knew his

brother, his older brother better, uh, Vince, because he was in my

squadron.

So we knew of each other and.

He recognized me too. So I went over and talked to.

Him and, um, I gave him my.

Condolences for the loss of his men.

And uh, I asked him how much.

Time he had left in his tour and he said, three weeks. I

was like, oh, that was kind.

Of one of the worst times for.

Any soldier going in and out. It's the first three weeks and last three weeks.

First three weeks, you don't know what to be cautious for the last three.

Weeks, your guard gets let down none.

Not saying Matt let down his guard by any stretch of the imagination.

Let me make that very clear.

Um, it's just coincidence.

Later on, things went bad.

So he said, yeah.

So we shook hands, I went and jumped in the front end,

fired the.

Plane, flew the bodies into Dubai.

Bodies were offloaded from the Herc right onto the Airbus.

We handed into our gear as we're walking off the Herc

to the guys that were waiting, and we walked right onto the Airbus

and flew with the Airbus all the way home. So now I'm seeing

literally every repat parade for these four

soldiers that had passed away.

And ah, when we got to Trenton.

We obviously stayed on the plane while the bodies were unloaded

and then put in the hearses where the families were.

And then they were taken away. And about an hour

later we were.

Able to get off the plane and see our families.

And about ten days later, somewhere around there,

I remember being at home, sitting on the

couch, had a drink in my hand and

I was watching CTV's.

News Net and a news flash came up said, another

Canadian soldier has been killed in Afghanistan.

At that point, I remember standing up

and then the picture of the soldier

popped up in the TV and it was Matt.

Uh, and

I remember I dropped the

glass and it shattered on the floor.

My wife was in the kitchen at the time. She's like, what's wrong? And I

just pointed at the TV.

And I said, I was just talking to him.

What do you do?

So the things that had bugged me over the years were

seeing the guys grieving

for their lost comrade, um, and.

Then regretting what I had said to him. Why do you

regret that?

I know what I said didn't lead.

To him getting killed, but

I wish.

I'd never said, be careful, I don't.

Want to do one of these for you.

That one line is one of the things I wish I'd never

said.

And when I was going through therapy, I did

written exposure therapy where you.

Write out the whole event. And those were the

two things where I got very upset when I was writing them out. And I

realized it wasn't the whole repatriation somewhere that bugged

me, it was those two concepts mhm, that really bugged.

Me over the years. I mean, I just got a little.

Bit upset recalling that now, but in the

past when I would recall that.

Memory, I would get a lot more upset.

And I've told this one to you before and you've seen

how upset I've gotten in the past.

So the therapy has definitely

helped me.

Deal with that grief a lot better.

Than how I was feeling in the past about it.

That's good. I'm really glad to hear that. We're

already getting into this a little.

Bit, but how has being around all.

That death and grief affected you?

Yeah. So over the years,

definitely around Remembrance.

Day, um, you'd start seeing more images on the

TVs, war movies and ah.

Such, uh, of past wars in

Afghanistan.

War. And the memories of the repat parades would come up

and I would start getting

upset.

Um, and over the

years, I found.

Especially over this past year, this time last

November, usually it was like the first ten days leading up to and

then a couple of days after, and.

Then you wouldn't really have any feelings

pop up for the rest of the year. Last

year, I kept having feelings pop.

Up after November's Day, like watching

Chicago Fire, Chicago PD or something where

someone was killed.

And then there was grieving, or there.

Was a ceremony tied with it, with grieving, uh, that would

get me upset.

And I realized that,

um, it was becoming a problem

and it was something.

Having talked with you multiple times, you really encouraged

me to go get seek.

Some mental health help, and I finally

did, and I'm so thankful that I did do

that. It involved me getting grounded

for six.

Weeks over the summer. I ever want to ground a

pilot.

But yeah, it's the steps I had to go through.

Yeah, sometimes you just have to.

Yeah, sometimes you got to.

And it's a process I'm glad I

went through and was able to address.

Those feelings almost immediately. When I was going through

therapy, I found I was sleeping better at night.

Not that I ever had dreams about it, because I haven't

never had really dreams about my time to Afghanistan. So I never really

attributed me getting only 6 hours of sleep at

night as a trigger from what happened in the past. But

I all of a sudden found I'm sleeping seven and a half, 8 hours at

night more consistently than I was

previously. And I was feeling a lot

better. I felt like the weight had been lifted

off.

But, uh, yeah, being around all that death, it

affects everybody differently.

Some people, they just block it out.

Some people, they can't see it ever

again.

I can't do repatriation ceremonies again.

That's just something

as disrespectful as that.

Might be, if I was told to do one, it's just I

can't that's my limitation right there.

I've done enough of those.

You've done more than most as far as those go.

Yeah. I'm glad it's behind me.

I'm glad I got the help that.

I needed and, uh, moving forward.

Remembrance Day is approaching. As it approaches,

how has Remembrance Day changed for you over the years?

Uh, like I said, the days

leading.

Up to it in the past have been upsetting. I

haven't had any problems so far, but also in the past. I

used to give presentations for kids at the schools about my time

in.

Afghanistan, and seeing some

of the pictures.

I would put in there, uh, would get me upset as

I'm talking to kids.

But I try to keep that under control as much as

do those.

I haven't done those in a while.

But I'm very interested to see how this year goes.

Mhm compared to previous years.

Yeah, you're kind of in unexplored territory now.

Yeah, I am.

I've seen a few images on TV since I'd

gone through therapy there and.

Someone dying, a ceremony even happening,

and.

It didn't phase me anymore. The fact that

I'm looking at this, I'm like, okay, I'm watching TV and it's not upsetting me

anymore.

That's good.

So I have got hope for this coming year as to

how I will do.

Yeah.

I'm sure at some point I'm going.

To still feel a little upset, but.

I really don't think it's going to be as bad as it's been in the past.

Yeah, I'm really happy for you.

Uh, that's awesome. Thanks.

So with Remembrance Day right around the corner, if you could say one

thing to Canadians about Remembrance Day and are.

Fallen, what would it be? Never forget.

Never forget the sacrifice that's been made. Not just by

those who have fallen.

But then the families who are left behind.

The sacrifice that they made. The

sacrifice that the soldiers who did come home

are still making in terms of dealing with mental

health, doing their job for this

country and what their

families are going through. Mhm there's a

lot of people who have put

a lot on the line, risked everything

so that we can live

in a society that we get to live in.

Because there's a lot of countries in this world that do not have

the.

Freedoms and the level

of life that.

We get to experience.

And it's sad that, uh, not everyone gets to experience

that. Yeah. It's,

um, so easy to forget

the.

Ripple effects that the losses and injuries have on

the people around. It's not just that soldier,

it's all the people connected with them who feel that loss as

well.

Absolutely.

It goes a long way that ripple.

Effect goes a long way out and affects a lot of people.

So just always remember who's made those

sacrifices. Okay,

so we're going to end on.

A slightly lighter note and ask some questions. We always ask,

what is the most important thing you do to stay ready for the

job?

Take time for myself.

I said that before when I did pilot training, but even today

I've got a very busy job with staff work

and being a chief checkpoint and checking.

Guys out and teaching pilots such as.

Yourself how to be instructors and testing

them and getting ready for our new aircraft

training fleets that we're going to be getting in a couple of years.

But you always have to take time for yourself. There's

always tomorrow. Whatever's happening today, at

the end of.

The day, it can wait till tomorrow.

Move on. But if you don't take time for.

Yourself, you can't put forth

that great effort into your job and into

all.

Those around you that they're expecting you to perform at.

It's very critical you take time for.

Yourself and do whatever it is that makes you

relax.

For me, it's ice fishing or watching TV,

or being in the pool or being around a campfire. Whatever

it does for you to take.

Your mind off of work and bring.

It down so you can be recharged for the next day, that's what you

got to do.

Yeah.

I really like what you said about how it affects the others around

you as well. That's one thing that I've always noticed about you

is a big part of your passion is about is the student

getting the best possible instruction? Are they getting the best

possible learning experience? And, uh, it affects

so much more than just yourself if you're taking care of yourself.

Absolutely. Every instructor is personally

involved in the well being of their students. And not just their students, but the students they

see around them. We have a job. Our job is to teach. We

want to see our students succeed.

And if we see outside factors

affecting their ability to learn,

then it's our.

Obligation to step in and help solve those problems.

We may not be able to solve.

Those problems, but then we could send the student off to get

resolution to those problems so that they can be successful. They

can come back to training so they can be successful. It, uh,

costs a lot of money to make a pilot, and we don't want to waste that

money. And we want everyone to pass. We need everyone to

pass. We need more pilots.

So to be very cognizant of how

our students are doing, both performance wise.

On the course, but also mentally, you can see when your

students attitudes all of a sudden has changed, something's just not quite

right, and when you can.

Pick up on those cues.

Because students will often not

be very.

Forthcoming with when stuff's going on. They think they can

deal with stuff in the background. You don't need to know as an.

Instructor, but we can see it sometimes.

You probably wouldn't be as able to do that kind of stuff if you were not also

taking care of yourself and making sure you're at the top of your game.

Absolutely. You always have to know your own limitations.

If you're at the point where you need to take a break, you got.

To call it what it is.

Mhm.

If you don't know your own limitations.

You can't be ineffective in

anything.

Whether it's being effective soldier, be an effective teacher, you can't take

care of yourself. You're going to lose out on that

effectiveness?

Yeah, absolutely.

So you have a lot of experience instructing young pilots.

What would you say makes a good pilot?

The ability to adapt to an ever changing

situation. We teach

students how to fly.

We teach them how to land, take off, fly around,

go up, go down.

Bad weather, good weather. But it's

all kind of a can scenario.

And we do it again and again and again. We just drill

in those basic

procedures.

Into you so it becomes second nature. So that all of a sudden,

when.

You go out to do it for.

Real and from what you've practiced, the situation you practice

in is changing constantly.

You're now able to have the

brain.

Capacity to deal with the, uh, ever changing

situation. And if you can't adapt to that changing situation, you just

freeze up. You're not going to be successful.

So those that, uh, are successful in the Canadian

forces are, ah, those that can adapt to change

on the fly without fail. They're the

ones that are going to have the easiest time. Yeah, I

agree with that.

Okay, so we're on our final question.

We'Ve changed it a little bit for.

Today'S topic and subject matter. What

advice would you give to young pilots who may encounter

grief and loss.

In the line of duty? Don't hide

it. Don't hide the pain.

Don't think you can deal with it on your own.

There's tons of resources out there.

People who are professionally

adept at dealing.

Um, with this and helping you deal with this.

You'd be surprised how many people you are sitting

beside every day at work mhm.

Who are going through the exact same.

Thing totally and aren't seeing a thing.

You help me open up

to my problems. Yeah.

We have to realize you're not alone.

Right. Mhm, and it's huge. And then when I went and got.

My therapy, I found out other guys.

That I was working with were going.

Through their own things.

Mhm. So go get help. Yes.

That's one thing that I learned when I realized

I needed help was how many people around me were

going through something similar. And just that feeling

of I'm not alone, this is going to be okay, we

can all get through this.

Yeah, it's huge.

And by realizing a lot of other.

People are going through this stuff, it.

Gets rid of the stigma behind it.

You're not alone.

No one's looking down upon anybody for.

Dealing with what's going on. Yeah.

If anything, I, uh, look more

positively.

Upon a person who understands I need help and

is asking for help. I find it kind of ironic that

up until where I finally asked for help, I was all about

anyone working for me.

Go get help. Like with you, Brian, go get help.

It was so easy for me to.

Tell people to go get help. But then when I was on the.

One in the other side of the chair,

needing help.

It was so much harder to ask for.

It was really scary.

It was very scary because you start running

these huge mind games, okay, if I ask for help,

I'm going to be out of a cockpit, I'm going to lose my career,

I'm out of the military. It's all going to go down

downhill.

Yeah.

You just catastrophize.

Absolutely. And I totally did. And my wife can

attest to that. Uh, I absolutely

was more concerned about my career than I was concerned about

me. And thankfully got past

that.

And, um, I'm one of the

cases.

Where I don't have to get out of the military. I was able to deal with it

before it got to the point where.

It really did affect my job and.

Now I'm able to go back to.

My so it's such a great success

story.

Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate it.

Mike, I just want to thank you so much for being here today.

And I know that some of these topics

and questions are not easy for you. So I just really

appreciate the courage that you've shown to come here and talk

about that. And I'm really excited to share this with

Canadians.

Thanks for having me. And I know we've talked for quite.

A few years about doing this particular mhm

discussion and I'm very glad that today

we finally got to it.

Yeah, me too.

Remembers day can be a hard time of year for our

serving members, veterans and their families. If

you or someone you know is struggling right now, I'd like to

encourage you to reach out to the Canadian Forces Member

Assistance Program, or SIF Map. The number

is 1802

687708. I've

used it in the past. Your chain of command does not find out you're

using it.

It is confidential and they will hook.

You up with a specialist or therapist

in your area. So please, if you need it,

use it. That number again is 1802

687708. I

recommend you save it in your phone in case you or one

of your peers or subordinates need it. Stay

healthy out there. Okay? That's going to wrap up

our chat with Mike, talking about his time in Afghanistan

on The Hercules, as well as his experiences with Remembrance

Day. For our next episode, we'll be sitting down with my budy

Paul Goddard and talking about the Ch 149

Cormorant and search and rescue in the Royal Canadian Air

Force. Do you have any questions or comments about anything

you've heard on the show or would you or someone you know make a great

guest? You can reach out to us at

thepilotprojectpodcast@gmail.com

did you know that we make videos for every episode that we

create? These videos feature footage from RCAF

air crew and personnel and provide some unique perspectives that

you don't want to miss. Check it out on all social media

at at podpilot project. As it is the

week of Remembrance Day, we want to remind you to try to get out

and go to a Remembrance Day ceremony in your local

community, or maybe check out your local legion

and get to know your local veterans. As always,

we want to thank you for your time and for joining us this week.

And ask for your continued support in the Big Three

that's like and follow us on social media, share

with your friends and follow and rate us five stars wherever you

get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks

for listening. Keep the blue side up.

See you.

Engineer shut down all four. Shutting down all

four engines.