Bryan: 00:29

Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is fellow Aurora aircrew, Carson Choi. Carson, welcome to the show, and thanks so much for being here.

Carson: 00:42

Hey. Thanks so much for having me, Brian.

Bryan: 00:44

Yeah. It's been a long time coming, so I'm glad we got this together. Before we start, let's go over Carson's bio. Carson joined the CAF in December 2000 as a reserve naval warfare officer. After sailing on several maritime coastal defense vessels in the West Coast, he transferred to the RCAF in 2007.

Bryan: 01:02

He graduated from Air Combat Systems Officer Wings Training in 2009 and was posted to 407 long range patrol squadron in Comox, BC on the CP 140 Aurora. As he had a commercial multi IFR pilot's license through the UWO Commercial Aviation Management program, he was one of a handful of axos selected to fly the CU 170 Heron uncrewed aircraft system in Kandahar, Afghanistan. He deployed to Kandahar Airfield or CAF from April to October 2010, and upon return to Canada was selected to be one of 2 Canadians seconded to the Royal Australian Air Force number 5 flight, their Heron UAS unit. He was posted out can to Brisbane, Australia from 2,012 to 2,015, where he cross trained as a sensor operator and deployed again to CAF in 2012 to 2013. After his posting to Australia, he returned to 4 07 squadron and completed his maritime operational aircrew training in 2016 on the CP 140m Aurora.

Bryan: 01:57

He deployed to Op Impact in 2016, 2017 several multinational exercises and operations out of Fiji in 2019 as part of OP Drift Net countering illegal fishing. After his posting to 4 07 squadron, he graduated from the aerospace studies program in 2020 and was posted to Ottawa with the RCAF remotely piloted aircraft systems project. In 2022, he was posted as an EA to the chief of staff to the CDS. And in 2023, he was posted out again to NORAD HQ in Colorado Springs. Today, we will be discussing his time flying the Heron as well as his experience with remotely piloted aircraft systems.

Bryan: 02:33

So before we get into the meat of this discussion, there's so many words for these things, UAV, RPAS, UAS, drones. Which one is the preferred term, and what does that acronym stand for?

Carson: 02:45

So you're right. There's a ton of words to describe in tons of terms. Right now, I guess the largest grouping is UAS, so uncrewed aircraft systems, what used to be called unmanned aerial systems. A lot of these other terms are subsets of UAS. So RPAS, remotely piloted aircraft system, is a type of UAS, but not all UAS are IPAS, if you understand what I mean.

Carson: 03:08

NATO generally has 3 groups. So it's group 1, 2, and 3. Group 1 would be something like your average quadcopter you can buy at store. Group 2 is this in between stuff between that size and like a Cessna, for example. And then group 3 is this big, literally and figuratively, big group which includes everything from MQ-nine Reapers, MQ-9B Sky Guardian, all the way up to Global Hawks, RQ-four Global Hawks.

Bryan: 03:37

And those are huge.

Carson: 03:39

Yeah. The way I used to explain to people when I was at Dar 8 with the project was, Reaper, like, I'm about 5 foot 7 ish. When I stand up, the wings of a reaper are above my head, and it's about the same size as as a standard fighter aircraft, Whereas the r q fours, their wingspan is the same as 737.

Bryan: 04:00

So that's the thing I'm

Carson: 04:01

talking about here. Yeah.

Bryan: 04:03

And so which group of those would the Heron fit into?

Carson: 04:07

So Heron was of the lower end of the group threes. So what I, also will add is group threes are also 2 main categories or subgroups, I guess. There's something called males, so medium altitude long endurance, and then hail, so high altitude long endurance. So heron, reaper, predator, that sort of thing was medium altitude because it's generally below 50,000 feet. And then Global Hawk and Triton, which is the essentially the Maritime Global Hawk, is the high altitude.

Carson: 04:37

They they generally fly above 50,000 feet.

Bryan: 04:40

Wow. That is crazy. Yeah. It's pretty complicated.

Carson: 04:45

Yeah. It's very, when I was at the project, like, explaining that to most people, like, were many slides.

Bryan: 04:54

Yeah. No doubt. So I think today, most of what we'll be discussing is RPAS. Is that correct?

Carson: 05:00

Yes. Yep.

Bryan: 05:01

Okay. So we'll use that term today. And that's remotely piloted aircraft system?

Carson: 05:05

Correct.

Bryan: 05:06

Okay. So we talked about it a little bit in your bio, but how did you end up involved in flying the Heron? And was that something you wanted or something that just sort of happened?

Carson: 05:15

It honestly happened by accident. I, I got my wings. We're about to go on house hunting trip for our next posting. And I show up to Comox, and I go to the 4 7. I I have this thing where I always just check-in to the unit and see, you know, if there's any crazy things that are gonna be expecting I'm expecting to do in my next, you know, couple months.

Carson: 05:35

And I sit down with an app for like a matter of the time, and he found out that I had a commercial multi IFR from Western, as you had mentioned. And he basically said, Oh, guess what? Like, the RCAF was putting on all call for Axos with some sort of pilot's license to fly these things because we already have pilots doing it already. And, like, would you be interested? Or well, I think that was how he put it.

Carson: 06:00

He might have been like, hey, guess what? You're going. I I can't exactly remember what it was. I'll be charitable and say I made the choice. But, yeah, that was literally what it was.

Carson: 06:10

And then, I came back off house hunting trip back to Winnipeg, And I was remember telling my course mates, like, I think I'm going to Afghanistan.

Bryan: 06:19

Oh, wow.

Carson: 06:20

Yeah.

Bryan: 06:20

So this is actually something I was unclear on. So these were flown by both axos and pilots. Is that right?

Carson: 06:27

Yeah. So the vast majority of the crews, on the rotations were pilots. There were about half a dozen axos. Again, all of us had some sort of pilot license, and they basically just, like, trained us in the same way that we train the pilots, like the OTU, if you wanna call it.

Bryan: 06:45

Okay. The OTU being operational training unit?

Carson: 06:49

Correct. Yeah. So same sort of training regimen that the pilots got with De Heron and then, yeah, basically sent us out with the rotations.

Bryan: 06:57

So this is probably a good time as well to ask what did a crew of a Heron consist of?

Carson: 07:03

Yeah. So I always like to say for something called an uncrewed, you know, aircraft system, there's actually a ton of people in it. Yeah. So the Heron had about 5 to 6 people each shift, let's call it.

Bryan: 07:16

Oh, really?

Carson: 07:17

Yeah. So there was a pilot. We used to call it the air vehicle operator. So all intents and purposes of pilot. The payload operator or sensor operator, it's an ASOP in our when we use them.

Carson: 07:30

And then we have this team of IT folks that we basically work with all the time.

Bryan: 07:36

Okay.

Carson: 07:37

Yeah. So it averaged about, like, 5, 6, sometimes 7 people.

Bryan: 07:41

Wow. Okay. That's more people involved than I would have imagined. Yeah. So you kind of alluded to this, but I guess finding out you were going on the Heron was also the time you found out you were going to Afghanistan.

Bryan: 07:54

So how did you feel when you found that out?

Carson: 07:56

It was a bit of a reality check. It was 2009, that time frame. We've been in Afghanistan for a while. I personally wasn't expecting to go, mostly because I was going to Aurora, which wasn't in Afghanistan up then.

Bryan: 08:09

Mhmm.

Carson: 08:10

Yeah. Afghanistan was definitely in the news all the time. It was exciting, scary, you know, as every as you'd expect. It was very interesting talk with my parents. Yeah.

Bryan: 08:21

No doubt.

Carson: 08:22

Yeah. Yeah. But, no. It was, in the end, it's like, hey, that's what you joined up to do. Right?

Carson: 08:27

So

Bryan: 08:28

Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's kind of, like, the interesting thing is, like, all of us who joined post 911, there's a chance you're going to Afghanistan. Like and not everybody ended up going, obviously, but there's that chance was there.

Bryan: 08:40

Right? Yeah. You knew that when you joined.

Carson: 08:43

Well, actually, I joined pre 911.

Bryan: 08:46

Oh, true. Because you were a reservist.

Carson: 08:48

Yeah. 911 happened about 2 weeks after I finished, Basic.

Bryan: 08:53

Wow. That's some crazy timing. Yeah.

Carson: 08:55

So I was back at UWO, you know, learning about airplanes, and, yeah, and all that happened. So

Bryan: 09:01

Wow. So what was the workup training like for Afghanistan?

Carson: 09:06

I can't really get into a whole lot of details. Essentially, as I alluded to, there is kind of an operational training regimen with the aircraft, much like, you know, ground school and then flight school, let's call it. Yeah. And then the rest of it, like, I'd say 90% of it, was the normal pre deployment training for Afghanistan, like, that all the aircrew would have had to go to, like, if regardless if you're, you know, HURC or other platform.

Bryan: 09:34

That makes sense. So sometime learning about how to fly the aircraft, sometime learning about kinda what your job would be, and then the normal pre Afghanistan training that all aircrew would do.

Carson: 09:44

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That was what it was.

Bryan: 09:46

Was the Heron difficult to learn how to fly?

Carson: 09:49

No. I mean, a lot of people, like in UAS, are passed to video games. It's not like that either. I found it, interestingly enough, I had just come up from an app school, I found it really intuitive because it's not throttle and stick. It's, you know, keyboard and mouse.

Bryan: 10:05

Mhmm.

Carson: 10:05

So it actually really works for me. I I can't say for sure what the other pilots felt, but, yeah, I thought it was fairly intuitive, actually.

Bryan: 10:14

Okay. So it's phone with keyboard and mouse. That's interesting.

Carson: 10:18

Yeah. It's actually quite not what you're expecting.

Bryan: 10:22

So what were the roles that the Herons, filled in Afghanistan?

Carson: 10:27

So, generally, we did intelligence surveillance for Constance, ISR. A lot of it, especially with the Canadians, was friendly overwatch, just, you know, overwatching other our folks. Also, really, a lot of it was pattern of life, you know, scanning roads and counter IED, counter improvised explosive devices, like that sort of thing.

Bryan: 10:50

Okay. So what would you guys do for counter IED? Is that essentially, like, searching for and locating them?

Carson: 10:56

Yeah. Basically. Yeah.

Bryan: 10:59

Yeah. I know you can only get so specific. And just for the listeners, obviously, with our past systems, there's a certain amount of secrecy. We call it OPSEC or operational security. So Carson's not trying to be vague, but there's some things that we can only go so deep into.

Bryan: 11:14

And that's just the nature of the beast.

Carson: 11:16

Yeah. Exactly.

Bryan: 11:18

What did an average day look like for you in Afghanistan?

Carson: 11:23

So what normally would happen normal was very relative. But usually, me and the, sensor operator, we would go in. There are certain cruise shifts, basically. So you just, you know, go in at a certain time, and then you go check-in, you know, go to the ops desk, you know, see what's going on, and then see if you're taking off or landing the aircraft, or you're kind of just taking over a mid shift. Again, that's the real big difference in terms of the nuts and bolts between RPAS and crewed aircraft is the person that takes the plane off isn't necessarily the person that's landing.

Bryan: 12:00

Really?

Carson: 12:00

Yeah. It just depends on because the Heron and the male hail UAS can fly for so long, there's no way based on aircrew regulation, you can't stay there as long as it flies.

Bryan: 12:12

Okay.

Carson: 12:13

So a lot of times you'd be taking over midship. So really you'd go into a ground control station and then basically as the crew are doing their thing, you kind of chat with them, say, okay. That's what's going on. That's what we expect. And then, basically, just swap seats and continue on the mission.

Bryan: 12:28

Okay. Wow. So that must have been kind of strange sometimes to walk into a mission that was kind of midway. I'm assuming you guys did get some kind of a briefing so you don't go in cold, and then, you know, you're in the mission.

Carson: 12:39

Yeah. Exactly. So that's what I mean by talking to the ops desk. They will know, like, in more broad sense what's going on. Mhmm.

Carson: 12:47

And then, like, literally airspace, blah blah blah. That's when you talk to your off going person, let's say.

Bryan: 12:54

Okay. What would you say was the most fulfilling part of the job in Afghanistan?

Carson: 12:59

I would say, especially when we're, you know, doing friendly overwatches. Even though we are in Canadairfield, not necessarily, you know, co located with where our friendlies are, you know that what we're doing is actually demonstrating or having some concrete effect on their peace of mind, if nothing else. Most of the time, we're, like, literally, like, watching their backs. Mhmm. So, yeah, in general, that is very fulfilling, or at least that's what I found.

Bryan: 13:29

Yeah. I can imagine that the idea of being the person who's helping keep those Canadian troops safe must be quite a feeling.

Carson: 13:37

Yeah. Yeah. It was.

Bryan: 13:38

And I remember, even just from my time in op impact, anytime you're doing something that you feel is concrete and is having, like, real world effect is very motivating. So I can imagine that having that direct effect on their everyday lives must have been pretty cool.

Carson: 13:54

Yeah. It is.

Bryan: 13:55

What would you say was your best day in Afghanistan?

Carson: 13:59

So, again, it'll be vague. But, basically, we were doing friendly overwatch, and we do our shift. And then we come back, and the ops desk guy says, hey, come over here and take a look. And it was, like, essentially a thank you note from the guys that we were supporting. Oh, wow.

Carson: 14:15

So, basically, like, they took the time to thank us for what we did to help them.

Bryan: 14:20

It sounds kinda corny, but it gave me a little, like, shiver down my spine. Like, it's a really cool thing. You know, you know if those guys took that time that it meant a lot to them what you guys were doing because they're busy and they're tired. Yeah. And so for them to take that time to thank you, you know, that that was huge for them.

Carson: 14:38

Yeah. Yeah. It was.

Bryan: 14:40

So this one can be a tough question. But what was your hardest day in Afghanistan?

Carson: 14:44

Well, I would say, it would be so private McKay's death was on 13th May 2010. So the reason why it's the I say that is because I in the location where he passed, we were actually doing overwatch. So I was on shift. I was on in the box.

Bryan: 15:04

Oh, wow.

Carson: 15:05

Yeah. So, we hear the calls. We see the chat. We see everything, and it's just it was just heart wrenching, to be honest, because we're, like, we saw what was going on.

Bryan: 15:15

Yeah. I guess, probably another thing you can't get too much into.

Carson: 15:18

Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan: 15:18

Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. Kind of related to that, you mentioned that you had a very memorable experience in Afghanistan before we, began the call. Can you tell us a little more about that?

Carson: 15:30

Yeah. So before my rotations, when I was in second language training, I knew like, you know, I didn't know him very well because he was in a different course, but one of the officers then, was killed in Kandahar before, we got there. And at the time, during the operation, the calf would sometimes fly relatives of the fallen to Kandahar and kind of show them around saying, you know, this is what your relative did or where they were. So the leadership basically just asked her and said, hey. Could some people, you know, come for breakfast with these people?

Carson: 16:09

We were coming off shift, so it was around around that time anyway. So me and my sensor operator were like, well, you know, sure we'll we'll go. And it turns out afterwards, a a friend of mine said, hey. I'm gonna be there too. It turns out he was escorting the parents of this person, and we're chatting for a long time.

Carson: 16:29

And I just remember, like, it's very emotional and very memorable because there's one of these times we were talking to somebody in Afghanistan, flying over from Canada, and he's actually, like, actually knew their child. Mhmm. So I didn't know him very well, as I said, but it was just that other like, that connection was there.

Bryan: 16:48

Yeah. I mean, like you say, you didn't know them well, but you knew them. And to be talking to somebody's parents that you knew that's gone now and in Afghanistan, that must have been really surreal.

Carson: 16:59

Yeah. It was there are many instances when I would use the word surreal for my first one, I guess, to be honest. Yeah. That's definitely one of them. Yeah.

Bryan: 17:08

Yeah. Did you find it difficult to be chatting with them, or was it more like you felt like you were supporting them?

Carson: 17:15

Both. I remember saying to the central operator, I was like, well, you know, like, what do you say to your, you know, these people that have lost their relatives here? But then we started talking. It was great. It was just like talking to my friend's mom and dad, really.

Bryan: 17:31

Yeah. Wow. What would you say was the most intense experience you had in Afghanistan?

Carson: 17:37

So I was there during the Taliban ground attack. I believe it was a Xinjiang time frame. So at the time, the ground control station for the Heron was located a ways away from where the ops building was. So it's me, my central operator. We We hadn't started the aircraft yet.

Carson: 17:54

We were about to take off on a mission. And then, basically, we see the chats like, hey. No. Things are going down. And then, like, alright.

Carson: 18:01

So we obviously abort the mission. We stopped, and we're just watching this thing, like, all this stuff go.

Bryan: 18:08

Like, what do you mean by that, all this stuff go?

Carson: 18:11

Basically, like sitraps. Just sitraps just coming over to chat.

Bryan: 18:14

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Carson: 18:15

Or situation reports. Yeah. And then we realized, holy crap. Like, they're actually trying to come over. Right?

Bryan: 18:22

Yeah.

Carson: 18:22

Yeah. And then at some points, we decided, hey. Like, we should really be, you know, GTFO ing and getting back to the ops desk and stuff hanging out. And then I just remember looking, like opening the door because it's the ground control session's essentially a mini c can, like a half size c can, if you can imagine that. Okay.

Carson: 18:41

And I just remember opening the door, and I see all these twinkling lights. And as part of the trip, you knew that these are all aircraft from the stack. Yeah. Just let's come in over Afghanistan light. Must have been dozens of them.

Carson: 18:53

I just see all these lights. I'm like, holy crap. Pretty much all the combat aircraft in southern Afghanistan are right above us right now.

Bryan: 18:59

Wow. So, like, a feeling of being very well protected.

Carson: 19:04

Yeah. Yeah. It was, again, like, super surreal. No.

Bryan: 19:09

Yeah. I think I remember hearing about this. Like, this was a pretty major assault they launched on the airfield. Right? Because normally, like, harassing mortar attacks and that kind of thing was pretty normal, but this was, like, an actual attack that they launched.

Bryan: 19:20

Right?

Carson: 19:20

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Bryan: 19:22

That's just wild.

Carson: 19:23

Yeah.

Bryan: 19:26

What would you say was the most challenging thing about flying the Heron?

Carson: 19:29

So I don't think there's Heron specific. It's more of our past or UAS specific. It's the fact that your situational awareness is not very high. By that, I mean, there's no force feedback, as I said, for Heron especially. They're you're flying, you know, keyboard and mouse Mhmm.

Carson: 19:45

With waypoints and all that. So you don't like, the only way you can tell if a aircraft is banking is if you literally look at the instruments. You're relying on your instruments. Similarly, your camera usually, most of the time, it's the sensor. Right?

Carson: 19:59

The sensor is obviously staring at whatever it's staring at. So you don't really have a lot of, situation awareness around, like, what aircraft are around you unless it's on some sort of communications method. So it becomes very easy to get complacent, and then, you know, bad things happen. Mhmm. Yeah.

Carson: 20:17

So I I would say that's the biggest thing.

Bryan: 20:19

So how did you overcome that danger of complacency and the challenge of having that reduced situational awareness?

Carson: 20:25

You really just have to do a lot of cross checks, which most pilots could understand. And then you really have to, like, purposely be, you know, saying, alright. We're doing this. You know, this is where the aircraft's at. This is the airspace we're allotted.

Carson: 20:40

And just really make sure that you're keeping an eye out. And obviously, fatigue because a lot of things are so automated, becomes a big issue. And with UAS, you can come in and out. So, like, you don't sit in the GCS for, like, 8 hours or whatever it is.

Bryan: 20:58

A GCS is a ground control station.

Carson: 21:01

There are, like, x number of hours that you sit in, and then your next crew leaves you, and you you go in and out every couple hours, basically.

Bryan: 21:09

Okay. Which makes sense. Like, even when we were in the Aurora over Iraq, we would constantly do seat changes every Yeah. Like, every hour, you'd switch seats, take a break, whatever. Because otherwise, as crazy as it sounds, like, you can be there physically.

Bryan: 21:24

Like, it's hard enough when you're physically there above a war zone, and you can still be exhausted and starting to fall asleep, much less, I imagine, when you're in a ground control station and trying to stay awake with none of the physical sensations of flight or any of that.

Carson: 21:39

Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Bryan: 21:42

So this is a question I've had for a while about UAS operators. How do you stay calm and cool when exciting or frightening things are happening on the ground?

Carson: 21:51

So for my case, it's tough. I'll say that outright. But as the saying goes, really, like, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Yeah. And I, like, I purposely have to think about that a lot.

Carson: 22:03

Mhmm. Especially when things are, you know, getting pretty wild. With Heron, at least, like, it's not a very fast aircraft, so there's really only so much you can do quickly. At least that sort of alleviates it, but, yeah, in general, you can't let yourself get too worked up. I think that's really a general pilot thing, really.

Carson: 22:23

But yeah. Mhmm. Do you

Bryan: 22:25

find that challenging?

Carson: 22:26

It did get challenging at certain times. Yeah. Like, if troops are coming in troops in contact, then you definitely wanna be there trying to do whatever you can. But you again, you have to say to us, hey. It'll will take us as long as they get there.

Carson: 22:40

You know, let's just kinda step back, make sure everything's going right, and then, alright. Let's go.

Bryan: 22:45

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I imagine that would be extremely challenging, especially like you said, troops in contact, the desire to be there and to help protect them. That must be a real challenge.

Carson: 22:56

Yeah. Yeah. It is.

Bryan: 22:58

So you worked extensively with the Australians, including time both in Australia as well as deployed to Kandahar. What was that experience like?

Carson: 23:07

It was amazing for many reasons. So, a, Australia's a beautiful country. Love it. Love the people there. Also, just professionally and personally speaking, it was very good.

Carson: 23:18

The Australians are I mean, you've met Australian exchange

Bryan: 23:22

Yeah.

Carson: 23:22

Like, they're they're not that different than us. I mean, so my friends might might say otherwise, but our military's mindsets are very similar, I would say, in many ways, just in terms of culture. Professionally speaking, that's how I got caught in as a sensor operator because at the time I'm not sure what it is now. It's been almost 10 years. But, at the time, the Heron pilots with the Australians had to be a winged RAF or, you know, army navy pilot.

Bryan: 23:50

Oh, wow. Okay.

Carson: 23:51

Yeah. So because I was an AXO, I had to get cross trained, and the only other job really is to be a sensor operator, which is Okay. Interestingly enough, in a job for the ASOPs in Canada. But because of that, I knew both seats. So I can kinda help out if if it's a brand new, and say, alright.

Carson: 24:11

I suggest we should be doing this instead because, you know, previous experience.

Bryan: 24:16

Yeah. Right. So you had the experience to not only be the sensor operator, but to kinda say, well, like you said, hey. This is probably our best practice right now based on what I saw in my previous tour.

Carson: 24:27

Yeah. We flew out of Kandahar with the Australians as well, but their area of responsibility was somewhere else. So, like I didn't try to impose too much Yeah. Canadian Southern Afghanistan stuff. But yeah, like basically like how to fly the aircraft, like what tactics were being used.

Carson: 24:44

Sometimes I could give some more insight.

Bryan: 24:47

Yeah. For sure. I mean, you don't wanna step on toes too much or pour too much maple syrup on the situation. But

Carson: 24:53

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Bryan: 24:55

That's interesting. I actually I didn't realize that in your tour with Australia that you were the sensor operator. So it's pretty cool that you got a chance to sit in both seats. Which one did you enjoy more?

Carson: 25:05

It's hard to say. I've been asked this question before. They're both very interesting for two different reasons. The sensor operator, now has the joystick and is moving the camera around. So they when things are happening, they are obviously the most hands on, literally.

Carson: 25:22

Whereas the air vehicle operator or the pilot almost doubles as a tactical coordinator in the Aurora. Mhmm. They do a lot of that coordination stuff, whether it be airspace or comms or whatever it is. So it really depends, like, who is asking what time of day. I'm like, no.

Carson: 25:38

I don't know. Maybe I like being a sensor. Maybe I like being pilot. So

Bryan: 25:42

Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I can see that there'd be, like, kind of aspects of both that would appeal and probably times where both jobs get boring and times where both jobs get exciting.

Carson: 25:51

Yeah. Exactly.

Bryan: 25:53

So Canada recently announced that we are acquiring a fleet of m q nine b Sky Guardians. What can you tell us about this project, and what does it mean for the RCAF?

Carson: 26:02

Yeah. So you said the RCAF announced it, in December or so that we're getting 11 aircraft. The idea being the aircrews, so the pilots, central operators, etcetera, will be based in the National Capital Region. And then we'll have 2 locations for aircraft, 1 in Comox and 1 in Greenwood. I just actually had to take a look myself to see numbers of people.

Carson: 26:23

So they're looking at 160 people in Ottawa and then 25 in Comox and 55 in Greenwood. So those 2555 will really be like the technicians. The MQ-9B will be armed. And the missions in all cases is, intelligence surveillance reconnaissance. And then overseas, you can have, like, engaging targets.

Bryan: 26:46

Okay. Well, that's interesting. You know, it's funny. I totally didn't think about the fact that the aircrew doesn't have to be where the aircraft are based. Mhmm.

Bryan: 26:56

So when I read the article initially, I missed that aspect of it that the crew would be based in the capital region. I was thinking, oh, Greenwood and Comox. I guess they're gonna base the crews out of there as well. But you just don't have to do that.

Carson: 27:11

No. No. Exactly.

Bryan: 27:12

Yeah. It's gonna be a really neat capability. I'm really looking forward to seeing what we do with it and how that evolves. So you've had a few unexpected curveballs in your career. Can you tell us more about that?

Carson: 27:25

Yeah. Whenever people start asking my career, I say, man, how much time do you have? Because my life's been nothing but curveballs, by the way, since I joined. The big ones really, obviously, Karen, as we've already alluded to. It was literally, guess what?

Carson: 27:40

Hey, guys. I might be going to Afghanistan. Massive curveball. And that really fed into my Australia time because so how I got the Australia posting so I'd come back from Heron, and I was waiting to go on Mote, and that was when we had, like, years long waits for Mote.

Bryan: 27:58

Right. And just for the listeners, MOTE is the aircrew training course for the Aurora.

Carson: 28:03

Yeah. Exactly. So I just remember one morning brief. CO breached the squadron and afterwards says, hey, Carson. Can you just hang back?

Carson: 28:12

I'm like, that's not good. When the CO says yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So but it turned out, it's like, basically, he said, hey.

Carson: 28:19

Guess what? They're look thinking of sending 2 axos down to Australia to help out to work with their UAS program. Are you interested? So that was, like, massive curveball number 2. And then even my current job right now in NORAD, it was kind of a last minute posting.

Carson: 28:36

I was not expecting to come to Colorado Springs, really, but, yeah, the career of mine just just called me up one day and said, Hey, you know, how about Colorado? And talked to my wife who I have to give a shout out to because there's another one of these stories about, you know, relationships in the military. I met her on a Wednesday. On Thursday morning, I was flying off the cold lake for 3 weeks, and then we dated. And like I proceeded to be gone between temporary duties, exercises, and the deployment of the Kuwait.

Carson: 29:11

I was gone for almost 9 months of our year, 1st year together.

Bryan: 29:15

Wow.

Carson: 29:16

So I've had all sorts of curveballs in my career, and I really kinda made me have this, you know, motto, if you wanna call it that, like, even if it is a curveball and all of them have upsides and downsides, you always have to make the opportunity. Something that seems not great at first

Bryan: 29:34

can

Carson: 29:34

be end up being a great opportunity. Actually, I forgot another curveball because I came from the Navy. I mean, even the MCDV world.

Bryan: 29:41

And for the listeners, an MCDV is a maritime coastal defense vessel.

Carson: 29:46

I was hell bent on wanting to be maritime helicopter. I wanted to go back to Victoria. I was in Victoria, loved the city, and then I came out of NAV School, and for reasons, there actually were no maritime helicopter spots in either coast. So the aircrew flight commander in NAVSCHOOL says, you know what? I think you'll really like Comox.

Carson: 30:07

And we've done, something called a, basically squadron tours.

Bryan: 30:12

Oh, yeah.

Carson: 30:12

And we did Comox in Victoria. And Comox in 2008 is not the Comox of 2024. It was the earliest the way I saw it was this kind of sleepy town. I'm like, I don't know of a single guy like me who would really like it. I turned out absolutely loving Comox, and now it, like, begged, borrowed, and stole to get a second tour back

Bryan: 30:34

there. Wow. So it sounds like you had all this unexpected stuff come your way, but every time it turned out to be even better than you imagined.

Carson: 30:42

Yeah. And I think part of it I mean, yes. A lot of them were good goes, and that's kind of like a running joke between people I know. And, but a lot of it, I believe, is the attitude that you go, like, you go into it.

Bryan: 30:55

Yeah. 100%. We've talked about that a few times on the show before. You know, I'll say it again even though it's a cliche at this point, but you can be miserable in an amazing posting, and you can be so happy in a posting that you didn't want. It all depends on your attitude going into it and how you keep that attitude going.

Carson: 31:14

Yeah. Exactly.

Bryan: 31:16

So we're down to the final three questions. We always ask these. What is the most important thing you do to keep yourself ready for your job?

Carson: 31:24

It was hard to pick just one, but I will say this one because probably not one that gets mentioned a lot is learn, especially with this field, UAS. The field is growing so much. I don't have a really good analogy for it. I guess the best analogy I could think of kind of off the cuff ish is if you ever read about aviation in like the 1910s, right? So the airplane was a thing, and they're like, all right, what do we do with this thing?

Carson: 31:48

And they're trying all these crazy, whacked out ideas about what aircraft would look like, what an aircraft can do, what an aircraft can't do. I believe that we're in that situation now with UAS. Like, we know UAS is a thing. You know, we can see it in the news, but the roles and the opportunities are still really being fleshed out right now.

Bryan: 32:09

Yeah. For sure. Because, like, right now, we're kind of looking at it as, like, well, it's an airplane. It's an airplane, but it doesn't have people in it. But there's more to it than that.

Bryan: 32:18

Right?

Carson: 32:19

Yeah. And and a lot of I think it's we might not know yet. Like, there might be another iteration that we just haven't thought of right now or, you know, I haven't thought of right now.

Bryan: 32:29

What do you think makes a good RPAS pilot?

Carson: 32:33

I'm not gonna sidestep the question, even though I totally am. I don't think there is a distinction between a good RPAS pilot and, pilot pilot. The skills are really the same. I mean, maybe not the hands and feet stuff. Otherwise, situational awareness, airmanship, leadership, as I said, there's a crew.

Carson: 32:52

Right?

Bryan: 32:53

Mhmm.

Carson: 32:53

So I would say there's really no difference aside from, like, those very specific hands and feet things I might not need in UAS.

Bryan: 33:02

Okay. So what then would you say makes a good pilot?

Carson: 33:06

So my experience with the multi crew world is leadership, really. Mhmm. Especially if you're becoming not just FO, but, like, AC crew commander, especially. Hands and feet are good, obviously. But, really, like, in a multicrew environment, that leadership is really what's gonna get you through.

Bryan: 33:24

Yeah. For sure. I completely agree with that, especially in the Aurora world where you're dealing with a crew of 10 plus people. You can be a first officer, and it's really important that for you, like, your world is knowing the airplane and being a good pilot, hands and feet wise, being a the practical skills good pilot. But if you don't move beyond that and become a good leader, you're really not gonna be effective.

Carson: 33:45

Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's I mean, that goes with a lot of military trades, to be honest, but that's true.

Bryan: 33:51

Yeah. True. And by the way, I really like that you pointed that out that my question was a little off there about what makes a good RPAS pilot and that the skill sets are essentially the same. And I think that's such an interesting thing that I wouldn't have thought about it. It still shows the mindset a lot of us are in about thinking of these as very distinct things and thinking of, like, well, yeah, there's being a pilot and there's being an RPAS pilot.

Bryan: 34:13

But the truth is, RPAS systems are gonna become more and more common. Right? And more and more pilots are gonna find themselves flying our past systems. So those skills are gonna they're gonna be the same, with some differences, of course.

Carson: 34:26

Right. Yeah.

Bryan: 34:27

Yep. Okay. So for our last question, if you met somebody who was interested in the RPAS systems, particularly the ones that we are acquiring, what advice would you give them?

Carson: 34:40

I would say, cliched line, but, like, watch this space. Like, UAS is evolving fast. I think this is gonna be a next big thing in aviation. I mean, it kind of already is, but I think even more so. So, See what happens in the next few years as we look at getting MQ-9B and all that stuff because, yeah, it'll be very exciting, I think.

Bryan: 35:02

Jeremy Schneider (3six zero six): I guess the other thing people can do is talk to their career managers, make sure if they are interested in it, that they that they know that.

Carson: 35:09

Yeah. Definitely.

Bryan: 35:10

Okay. Cool. Okay, Carson. I guess that's it for our questions today. I just wanna thank you for taking the time to be here on Friday and taking some time out of your day down in Colorado Springs.

Bryan: 35:22

Thanks so much for joining us.

Carson: 35:24

Yeah. Thanks so much, Brian. That was great.

Bryan: 35:26

Okay. That's gonna wrap up our chat on the IAI Heron and RPAS operations in Afghanistan. Listeners may remember the name Ryan Finlader from episode 8 on the Twin Otter. On our next episode, we'll be interviewing his sister, Paula, about a search and rescue mission that earned her and her crew the Cormorant trophy for 2022. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard during the show?

Bryan: 35:50

Would you or someone you know make a great guest for the show, or do you have ideas for episodes for the show? You can reach out to us at the pilot project podcast atgmail.com or on all social media at atpodpilotproject. We'd like to thank you once again for taking the time to listen to the show. We know you have lots of options out there for media, so we truly appreciate you giving us your time. With that said, we are doing our best to make a comeback here after a long break, so we would really appreciate it if you could tell a few friends about the show this week.

Bryan: 36:20

And, of course, don't forget to like and follow us on social media and follow and rate us 5 stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up.