Episode 33: The Leader: Part 2 - Developing Coaching Leaders in the RCAF- Scott C
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and we are back with part 2 of our interview with major general retired Scott Clancy on leadership in the RCAF. If you missed part 1, you may want to check out the previous episode. But without further ado, let's jump into it.
Bryan:So in your book, you show a real willingness to admit past mistakes, showing a level of comfort with vulnerability. And, personally, I admire that. I find doing this podcast, sometimes I run into this thing where you're in a position where you're trying to give people wisdom and answers, and you're collectively bringing that in. But at the same time, you're conscious of the fact that this isn't because I'm a perfect paragon of being a pilot or being a leader. It's just that these are things I've learned along the way, and sometimes you're learning from your own mistakes as well.
Bryan:So what are some mistakes that you wish you had corrected earlier in your career that a young pilot can learn from?
Scott:Yeah. That's a great, great question and a hard question. So I'm gonna answer real honestly. I had a really big mouth.
Bryan:Okay.
Scott:Those who know me are saying no kidding, Scott. Right? Like, okay. I had a big mouth. I was brash.
Scott:And to a certain extent, I was tactless. And if I thought I was right, that was it. Like I was just right and I was going. And now for the most part, like I was always well intentioned. Note that those two things, those are different.
Scott:Like I still to this day think that people that are well intentioned, no matter how that comes across, if they're well intentioned, then I can work with this. It's people aren't well intentioned that, you know, I concern myself with more than anything else. So I was brash. I even, at one point in time in the command post, the squadron command post in front of all of the senior staff, told the CO how he had his head up his posterior.
Bryan:Oh no.
Scott:As a captain, directly to a Lieutenant Colonel. That got me in a lot of hot water as it should. Brash and tactless. I disagreed vehemently with the decision that the commanding officer was going to make, but it was well within the purview he had. He was flushing down weeks of training for this one high profile event that he was good blah, blah, blah.
Scott:For whatever reason. You know what? Completely his decision to do his resources, his squad and all the rest of stuff. For me, I had voiced it. I had voiced it in a very strong fashion.
Scott:I disagreed with it. All the reasons why he had all that information. He said, Scott, that's good. I know I'm making this decision. And then I went off.
Scott:It's like that one step, too. It's that those things where my mouth gets me into trouble when I knew that I had given him. As a matter of fact, I had given a great example to everybody else of what someone was should do is make sure that are you aware of all of the consequences of things you're doing? You still wanna make that decision. That's fine.
Scott:That's well within. That's what I should have done. I didn't. I did this again. I was promoted to major.
Scott:I got myself in even more trouble, you know, being brash and tactless and telling people that that they had no business, you know, because of being what I would consider to be incompetent about something. That's no way to be. And that doesn't get you any favors. And nobody remembers what the actual events are, what those elements were. Nobody remembers the dialogue and the vulnerability that the commanding officer was showing to actually hear out that young captain and all of those things.
Scott:They don't remember any of that. They just remember there's Scott going off. And what that did is it detracted significantly from my ability to demonstrate an example of how I needed to be as a leader, how I needed to be accepting of other people's opinions because I wasn't accepting of people's opinions above me if I thought they were making the wrong decision. It took time for me to season to be able to be like that. Funny enough, I don't think I ever had that kind of approach with subordinate people within my organizations.
Scott:I just had a better relationship with them than I did with, you know, especially, you know, some of the senior officers that were around. That doesn't mean that it wasn't right. And it was definitely a bad example that I was setting.
Bryan:So let's say one of our listeners is sitting there right now saying, oh, wow, that sounds really familiar. What is a practical piece of advice you can give them to correct that? So the time when I started really realizing
Scott:about how my leadership or how the specific moments when I was doing things, letting my emotions get a hold of me, I didn't really internalize this until I was a full bull and mostly as a Brigadier General. I was still pretty brash, much more subdued because I didn't have to be. Right? Like when you're in a more senior leadership position, you're very rarely put in a position where you have to confront those those bad realities. And then the people are so high up the food chain that when you do go off, you know, it's either career ending or nobody else below knows about it.
Scott:Right? That kind of stuff. The practical tool for me, I started reading. I read a lot about being self aware. I started journaling and stuff like this, but it was, Mark Devine's book, Seal Fit.
Scott:Actually it wasn't his book, Seal Fit. He's the guy who created the Seal Fit brand, but it's his book, The Unbeatable Mind. And in The Unbeatable Mind, he talks about the monkey mind. And the monkey mind is this negative spin wheel that you have inside your head that's always going to be self deprecating. It's always gonna be bad things, bad things, criticism.
Scott:And this is this you can't help it. It's it's billions of years of evolution as hunter gatherers that's there to try and critique things so that the next time you come up, you can do it better and get that meal and whatever else. But what I liked about that idea is that monkey mind is out there and that's not necessarily you. That's not who you are. Okay.
Scott:And there's creating space between who that that monkey mind that's just going, that doesn't mean that you have to react on those impulses. Now, the next person I started reading was Doctor. Susan David and her work on emotional agility. She started really honing in on the fact that you have these emotions that are going to happen. You get angry or you're upset or you're sad or whatever.
Scott:They might be emotions and acknowledging that their emotions are one thing. That doesn't mean you have to react on those emotions. That doesn't mean that you have to your behavior has to reflect. Cause I used to excuse it. Like this here's the other part of the problem.
Scott:When I'd have people mentoring me on my tactless approach to certain things, my answer, you know, a lot of times back would be, and if not to them, because it depends on who it is. Right? Like if you're in a PER debriefing.
Bryan:PER stands for personnel evaluation report. This system of annual evaluation has since been replaced with an updated version.
Scott:The colonel says you have to stop doing this. Of course. Yeah. I'm gonna get better. I'm gonna work on this.
Scott:But in your mind, in my mind, a lot of times I was saying, but this is just me. This is who I am. Mhmm. But the reality is is that I was letting my emotions dictate my reactions and behavior. And when I examined them, when I examined them in real honesty, that's not how I wanted to be.
Scott:That's not who I wanted to be. The idea that Susan David came with this great space, acknowledge the emotion, but don't it doesn't mean that you have to act on that. Being self aware about the creation of that distance and the distance the space between your emotions and the values, the way in which you want to behave, this is choice. And inserting that choice in there. So this changed everything in terms of my mindset.
Scott:It allowed me to say, and I can remember saying this when I was up in Alaska, I am angry and I can remember the whole team stopping. I am pissed. I'm really angry about this. That's not how I want to react because I know that nobody did anything wrong. Just So angry that the situation came about and people going, yeah, I feel angry too.
Scott:Okay. Well, let's get past this anger because I'm feeling it. Right? Okay. So because how I how I wanna be is like this.
Scott:And by saying those things out loud, I remember the team going, hey. Wow. Yeah. I felt the same way, but that's not what yeah. We have to get after this thing and that's what really this is about.
Scott:And I went, yeah. The situation's frustrating. Nobody here is frustrating me. This is just the sit wow. Okay.
Scott:Yeah. Right. You're right, boss. I can see it. And that allows people to go, hey, the red faced general over in the corner.
Scott:He's not pissed off at me. He's just upset that we can't get after this tour thing. And okay. So now and by saying it, man, you let all the steam off and everybody. So that's how I kind of got to that that pragmatic thing.
Scott:Recognizing that you're having an emotion, creating distance between the emotion and the behavior that you want and making sure that your behaviors align with who you want to be. That doesn't mean you're not going to react poorly. Ever since then, I've reacted poorly. But because I'm more self aware, I'll go back and apologize. Hey.
Scott:Listen. I went off. I had no business going off. Sorry about that. I was upset at this.
Scott:I wasn't upset at you. I was but then I just took it out and that's that's not who I want to be because then I'm just being authentic all the time.
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. It's funny. There's so much there that, you know, is about mindfulness, being self aware. Some of it is almost the same skills as it takes to be a good parent sometimes where you're when you're saying, you know, hey, listen, buddy.
Bryan:You know, your kid drives you crazy. You might go off a little. And then you say, hey, look. I'm sorry about that. That wasn't acceptable.
Bryan:That's not how I wanna be. Here's why it happened, and here's what I'm gonna do to try to improve that.
Scott:Oh my gosh. That the you know, yes, I did 37 years in the military. Yes. I led a lot of big organizations, but the times when this vulnerability and that space between the emotion, The worst examples are the examples I had with my kids. Oh my God.
Scott:I wish I'd done that differently is what motivates you to be a better parent the next time that something like that comes up. Oh yeah. You're I'm right on with you, Brian.
Bryan:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for your vulnerability, by the way. It's not, easy to sit down and say, hey, here's the things that I really regret about how I behaved or whatever. So I appreciate that.
Scott:Yeah. You're welcome.
Bryan:What would you say was your biggest challenge you experienced while leading at the tactical level and how did you overcome it?
Scott:Yeah. This is a great question and I think a lot of, flying supervisors will agree with me. As a senior aircraft commander and flying supervisor, this is where I found it to be the toughest. And I think there's a direct application here to the business world, but let's just stick with flying for right now.
Bryan:Okay.
Scott:You start being a pilot. You're an aircraft commander. Okay. You know your business. You know all the right.
Scott:Now you're given flying supervisor responsibilities. But at the same time, you're flying the same rate that you were flying before. For me, I started crawling in because, you know, I had a couple thousand hours of flying senior aircraft commander CAT 1. You're crawling into the cockpit with less and less experienced crew members because you have much more experience and they want them to be exposed to your experience. But the reality is is within the last short period of time, 6 months, 1 year that you've been a flying supervisor, you've gotten less and less actual time to get in the cockpit because of your flying supervisor responsibilities that have to get done so that you can enable the crews to do their business.
Scott:Right. This was the time when I found it to be the toughest because you're still expected to be on point, if not better than, you know, the senior aircraft commanders that are I say just flying. I don't I'm not diminishing any thing here, but it's that additional weight of responsibilities and time out of the cockpit, but you're expected to be the most experienced person there. This is what I considered to be the toughest the toughest thing leading at that tactical level. Because when there was a tactical decision, they still look to you as providing that decision.
Scott:They still look to you just to have, you know, to have that lightning bolt moment of this is what we're going to do, and this is how we're going to tackle it, even with complex problems. But you're doing so with less and less time in the cockpit, less and less exposure to that actual flying, getting more and more distant from it. That's the hardest balance that I found leading at the tactical level.
Bryan:Right. And when when you're an AC, when you're an aircraft commander, you're pretty much at the peak of your game. Right? Like, you've gone through a bunch of upgrade training. You've really been put through the mill in terms of your system knowledge, your tactical knowledge, your hands and feet flying ability, and it's you've kinda been brought to the pinnacle.
Bryan:And so now you're in a place where, basically, your job is to do your job and to mentor. But then from there, like you said, you're gonna have less and less time to do those practical skills.
Scott:So, you know, there's there's there's 2 things there. The example that you use as well with aircraft commanders has to do a little bit with hands and feet. So, you know, helicopter driver, and you know, I am going to distinguish myself from the fixed wing guys. My feet are not on the floor. They're not just kind of resting.
Scott:There's no trim that push that aside for a second. You're very right. As an aircraft commander, as a senior aircraft commander, crawling out of the cockpit with a with a junior first officer, In many instances, I would never touch the controls ever. Like, I can remember flying days, weeks, barely ever do, maybe doing one landing or one takeoff and because they need that exposure and that expertise. Knowing and understanding the balance of keeping your skills going, keeping your skills honed, at the same time, wanting to make sure that the people that really need those exposures are enabling you to get them.
Scott:This is important stuff. The role of an aircraft commander. And I go back to leading here. Right? Your job is to replace you.
Scott:The instant that first officer crawls into the cockpit, you should be preparing them to be an aircraft commander. The instant. Mission planning, doing all the stuff, making the decisions, putting them in that position, briefing crews, everything. They should be doing it from day 1 or at least aspiring to do it the next time or you're walking them through it. It's you're either demonstrating it or you're getting them to do it or ever because you have to make sure that they're they're set to go with that.
Scott:And and my pitch to the, you know, the pilots and the Canadian Armed Forces out there is that when we get into, you know, the next punch up and and there is gonna be a next punch up. Right? Like, the war in Afghanistan wasn't the last time that we're going to be in combat. That's for sure. Next time we get into a big punch up, we might not have the luxury of saying, hey, this is the upgrade process.
Scott:It might be you're qualified in the C-130. You've spent 3 months at the unit. You're an aircraft commander. Why? Because everybody else is dead.
Scott:So here we go. Okay. You know, we go back to the Battle of Britain kind of kind of leverage. We're still going to get to have to get the job done regardless of where we're at. So you always have to take those advantages and those opportunities and don't miss out on those opportunities.
Scott:And then think of the opportunities that you got given. Like I say, go back to that that great aircraft commander who's always challenging you and doing the things and putting you in that position. So by the time you went to your upgrade, there was nothing. Right? So this this is this is why I always think you have to be leading in the in the cockpit for sure.
Bryan:So I do wanna circle around to we talked about what the big challenge was, which was getting into those leadership positions and having less and less time to fly. What is the best way someone can overcome the challenge of that situation?
Scott:1st one is brutal prioritization and time management. When you become a supervisor, it's not good enough to say, okay, you know, I know when I'm flying because you can be a victim of a flying schedule as an aircraft commander a little bit. Right? Like you don't have to really brutally prioritize your time because, you know, the responsibilities that you have outside of actually, you know, the flying pieces and mentoring inside of the flying machine are relatively minimal. You go to being a flying supervisor when you start taking on those other responsibilities.
Scott:You're gonna have to prioritize your time and manage your time to directly impact what you need to do when. And then it's going to be prioritization. A lot of leaders. This is business leaders, military leaders, government, everyone comes to me and they always ask a lot of the same questions. There is nowhere near enough time in the day to do all of the things they have to do.
Scott:You're telling us Scott, that we need to coach these people to replace us. I don't even have enough time to do all the things I have to do. And I would say to them, what are the things that you have to do? And I say, before you answer that question, did you find time this week to play with your kids? Kiss your wife?
Scott:Oh, you found time to do those? Yeah, but they're a priority for me and we're back. Look, and and I don't want to be pejorative about this, but you know, up at the highest levels of the Royal Canadian Air Force, If I did everything that the Director General of Air Raidiness had to do every single week, every single day, I never would have slept. There's just no way. So I'm just going to make priorities.
Scott:And yes, somebody's going to be upset. Something's not going to get submitted. You just have to be good with this. You're going to make your peace with this. When you're crawling into that, if I'm going to go on a mission and I'm going to have a junior Brian, you're my first officer coming up on this mission.
Scott:We're We're gonna go out and do this mission. Well, you know what? The day before, I'm gonna take 2 hours. We're gonna go down and we're gonna walk through a couple of things around the mission playing, stuff like this because there's some things that I read. I have looked at your upgrade program and where you are with this because I wanna focus on these things.
Scott:And we're gonna tick off some boxes with that. And what that means is I'm not going to get this report in that the CEO wanted me to. And guess what? I guess he's not going to get his report because if I had a choice between those two things, I know which one I choose. You're going to go back to those things that actually mean something to you and mean something to the organization that that are in line with your values.
Scott:So when you're leading in those in those tough situations, you're going to have to brutally prioritize. And sometimes that the paperwork's going to take a back row and sometimes it's not. It's sometimes you're gonna have to say, you know what? I'm actually canceling that mission. Why?
Scott:Because if I don't get this stuff in, we're not gonna have our Wi Fi for the next month. That means you guys aren't gonna be flying anyways and then we're not gonna be able to get this stuff done. So this is a need to and you're gonna create that balance. This is gonna be tough. It's brutal prioritization and really good personal scheduling.
Scott:And that's the way that I look at that.
Bryan:Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I think every captain can attest to this that when you look and you look at your poor majors, and they are an order of magnitude more busy than you are. And you notice that that they're in earlier than you are, and they're in later than you are. So there's that aspect of it, but it it's kind of self evident that that job, you're not gonna survive unless you learn some of these skills that you're talking about.
Scott:You know what? It's not just learning those skills. It's internalizing that I'm going to prioritize things that are right for me. And after that, the dominoes are going to fall where they may fall. And you're going to have to make decisions as you go along that are really important that you're good with.
Scott:Sometimes you're going to have to do things that you don't want to do because you just have to. That's fine. And you know, one of the the other skills that I would I would add in there is, you know, we've talked about open communication like it's in the cockpit aircraft commander crew, this kind of stuff. But same thing with your supervisor. Those flight commanders and there's many flight commanders out there that don't feel that they can tell the CO, there's no way you can expect me to do all this and fly and mentor and lead and develop.
Scott:Come on. Like there's there's no way. And bring to them. Say, listen, I've got choices to make here and this is how this is manifesting in my schedule. I'm just telling you, I'm making these decisions and this is the stuff that's not going to get done and this is why.
Scott:And being able to have that that really open, vulnerable, and transparent conversation, you're going to learn a lot about what that CEO is like and you're going to learn a lot about yourself as well as a leader. Because the first thing is you're gonna have to get the gumption, the courage to go up and say these things. You're hoping the CO is going to be created that situation so that those supervisors can come to them and create this. But if you have flying supervisors that are the most tired, overwrought, stressed out people that are on your units, Who's who's releasing those missions? Who's doing the MAALA over top of those missions?
Bryan:For the listeners, MAALA stands for Mission Acceptance and Launch Authorization. The MAALA tool is used within the RCIF operational risk management process to assess aviation mission risks. The MALA is completed prior to the mission launch. It is the final confirmation that flying activity risk is being accepted at the appropriate level of authority.
Scott:The most tired, the most stressed, the most, Yeah. That's not where you want those people to be doing those things. Right? The supervisors are supposed to be the ones that are sitting back going, okay. I'm not the one who's doing a 16 hour crew day.
Scott:I'm not the one who has to do this. I understand the ramifications of this and this is where this authorization ends and whatever. You don't want them to be, fine. Whatever. You're just going to do okay.
Scott:Which is we've pencil whipped authorizations in the past for way too many things that have got us in trouble. Right?
Bryan:It strikes me as well that you mentioned that conversation between a flying supervisor and the CO. That's another place where that level of mutual trust is important to be able to bring that up and to trust that the CO is gonna be receptive of what you have to say.
Scott:Absolutely. And, you know, we say that it's the senior supervisor or leader that has to set the conditions for that. You know, if the CEO doesn't set the conditions for that openness and all the rest of stuff, then that's well, we can't just leave it there. You know, there's a lot of people that are just trying to do the right things. They might just not be good enough at it.
Scott:We have to have the courage to say, look, boss, we have to create an open conversation here about this because this is an issue and I'm bringing it to you, but it's not just me. It's the other supervisors and, and, and, and. And that's an opportunity for that CEO. So leading is not just hierarchical, right? I can be and I watched so many great organizations, especially, you know, military organizations and squadrons where it's the amongst the captains, you see the 3 or 4 captains.
Scott:They're the real leaders here. Even a lot of the flying supervisors and majors, they're following the lead of these senior captains. I remember a captain that, you know, taught me how to fly was still a captain when I was the wing commander. Right? Like, so when we're out and doing a mission or tactics and things like this, I'm in the backroom going, so what do you think about this?
Scott:What do you think about how that comes together? What do you think about that? Like, I'm recognizing the expertise that's here to make sure that, hey, we're making the right decisions and aligned with stuff. And a lot of times it's just confirming. Oh yeah.
Scott:Yeah. Well, this is good. This is all Okay. So we've got this kind of squared away. Yeah.
Scott:I would have done it differently like this. Oh, okay. Well, that's important for me to know. So anybody can lead and that's important.
Bryan:So this is a bit of a shift in topic, but at some point everyone will leave the RCAF. You mentioned in your book that you started to lose the ability to compartmentalize your decisions from the effects on national security and people's lives, and that led you to leave. Can you tell us more about that?
Scott:Doctor Yeah. So, you know, I was always with the field force. I served in Ottawa only 2 years as a general officer. I used to be called the worst trained general officer in the world, right? Because I arrived at Ottawa after 32 years of service as a brigadier general, never having served there before.
Scott:I didn't know where things were in the buildings, but I sure as heck knew what the field force looked like, Army and Air Force, out there. But I also knew that and and I think we all do. In your career, there's good and and bad stress. Right? Like, good stress is the stuff that challenges you to be better, that sets that goal for you, you know, that you when you set the goal to run a half marathon and the stress of getting there and doing the training and stuff like this.
Scott:So there's good stress and bad stress. The good stress always got me to react to and rise to the occasions and things like this. But as my career advanced, I was dealing with decisions that were larger and larger, making bigger and bigger impacts and bigger impacts on more and more people. And I'd say that the personnel portfolio stresses me out more than anything else. So, you know, being a KEG chair, being a SAG, and then, you know, being in charge of all the personnel for the RCAF, these were big responsibilities.
Bryan:Can you just quickly let us know what a KEGG and a SAG are?
Scott:So the capability advisory groups, TACL, Fighter, Long Range Patrol, the maritime helicopter. So, capability advisory group chair is the colonel that's responsible for the personnel management and succession planning of that capability, and then brings those to the commander of First Canadian Air Division, for approvals there and ultimately by the commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force. One step up from there is a one star that's assigned the supervisory role over each one of those advisory groups as well. As a matter of fact, knowledge around that and how the succession planning and management system of the RCF is done is I think foundational to professional development of the officer corps within the Royal Canadian Air Force. And anybody wants to talk to me about it, I'll talk to them about it at length because the more you know, the better you're positioned to be able to work within it.
Scott:So, so in many instances, as these decisions got bigger and bigger, I couldn't see the obvious thing, the obvious right thing to do. They say that as you get, you know, more and more up in rank that the problems become they go from being difficult problems to being, you know, complex to being wicked. Wicked problems have no solutions. It's just you're going to work out a solution. You're gonna run with it because there's no perfect solution.
Scott:This isn't 2 +2 equals 4. This is, you know, trying to figure out the best way to retain pilots. Okay. You know, things like this. And there are no simple solutions to those kinds of things.
Scott:And thinking deeply about these decisions and having too many things to deal with than you could actually deal with in any given day. This starts to weigh on you because now you have to decide where you're putting your time and effort. And there's, there's more things that are sitting on your list below the capability line that you cannot deal with because you just don't have time than are actually in the bins that you are moving through. And this can weigh on you because, you know, compartmentalization is basically taking emotions around those things and putting them into a spot saying, okay, I'm doing my best, but you know, my best is But you're still not doing all the rest of these things. Don't forget, as a general officer, I went out and I was visiting the wings and I was visiting people.
Scott:I'd hear whatever and fix these things. You need to fix these things or, you know, we're going to flounder here. And then we just can't get after them for whatever reasons. Compartmentalization was about deciding, acting, putting the emotions away and moving on. But when those emotions, they're coming back to you all the time and you're, you're anguishing over decisions of whether you can't, this is when this becomes a problem.
Scott:When I got into the NORAD sphere, things move in a 20 fourseven cycle. Like you're always on alert. You're always and as a general officer and as a director of operations for NORAD, the phone is ringing. Like when I say around the clock, I mean around the clock. And that, you know, for months weeks, you get no more than 5, maybe 6 hours sleep because that's the maximum ever between 2 phone calls.
Scott:And sometimes, sometimes the phone would ring and there's alarms in your house that you're running, you know, for the secure phone. Because when the secure phone rings, you have to answer in a few seconds. The impact on the ability in me to keep my perspective and balance, even between work and life and everything else, began to create a deep fatigue, an emotional fatigue. And I was recognizing it because, you know, as we said about being self aware and not wanting to react, my brash and tactless stuff starts to come starts to come back because you're tired. You're tired and you don't have time for this.
Scott:And I realized that I was getting to the point where I I just needed to be away from this. And I I wanted to leave before I got jaded. I have to admit, having the defense of the continent, watching where Russia was going, all of the the deep intelligence that we knew with, you know, where Russia was heading with this back in in 2020, 2021. Very difficult. And I I must say, emotionally taking that kind of stuff to heart because it is the defense of our nation.
Scott:Yeah. That led me to make the decision that I needed to leave the service.
Bryan:It sounds incredibly intense. I never thought about just the idea of having that that alarm that goes off in your house to go have to answer that phone within so many seconds. And and that's just on a sort of a day to day that's not the other all the other things that you're putting aside and not dealing with. That's just like the pressure of day to day life. Compound that with all these things that you're compartmentalizing.
Bryan:You know, there's only so much room in that box to put that stuff into.
Scott:So, you know, I I hearken it back to anybody who's held ALERT, the SAR crews that we have that are holding ALERT for, you know, months, years where they're in this environment. The things that they see and expose themselves to to make sure that they're honed to be able to do this. The f 18 crews that are holding alert and then risking themselves as they go way up north with very little recourse if they have to punch out at minus 60. And and, you know, the the kinds of things that the risks that we take, these you compartmentalize them, you accept them, you put them away, and you can deal with them. But over time and, you know, I'd had 37 years in by these times.
Scott:You know, we're scratching the surface of all the stuff that have compartmentalized, you know, up to this point in time. I can point very clearly to my my friends that have passed away and that the things that we had to do for the fight in Afghanistan and Haiti. Like, I keep going with with those things. Over time, that builds up a deep fatigue. You just lose the ability to put those emotions away or to deal with them properly.
Scott:I just needed space.
Bryan:I respect that. I respect your ability to kind of see the limit and recognize that. And, I like what you said about not wanting to become jaded. I think everybody's served with somebody who does let themselves get to that point. And some people, I think, have this sort of feeling like the military is a life sentence.
Bryan:And no matter if they're enjoying themselves still or if this is something that's wearing them down, that this is just something that they have to stay in. But the reality is it's, you know, it is a bit of a way of life, but it's also a job. And if it's not fitting you or you are becoming jaded, it might be time to move on.
Scott:You bring up an interesting point, Brian. It's when I mentored a lot of the senior officers in the Royal Canadian Air Force for the last few years since I've been out. But also as, you know, director general for air readiness, you in charge with all the personnel. So all of these senior officers, you know, that I was speaking with and I I would tell them things like, hey, listen. If you need to move on, then move on.
Scott:You can always come back. And they went, what? Don't worry about that. We're gonna be fine. You don't have to carry on.
Scott:This isn't and that's very much against the dogmatic kind of, hey, retentions about everybody staying in and hey, let's just let's just everybody take a pill for a second and remember that you want people leaving the service that love the service. Mhmm. Who are your best recruiters?
Bryan:Well, it should be the happy veteran. Right?
Scott:And here we go. And I I you know, think about this in terms of business. You know, you hate to go work at this company. I learned so much. Everything I know about this, this, and this is I learned from there.
Scott:And then and you move on. Not everybody has to have a lifelong, career, and not everybody's career has to be the same. This is the other problem we have within the RCAF. Each one of the communities has their bespoke. Here's how your career progresses.
Scott:This is when you go to your staff college. This is when you do this. This is your staff tour. This is your flying supervisor tour. Blah blah blah.
Scott:Got got news for you. I was a 2 star general. I never commanded a squatter. Ever. Didn't command at the Lieutenant Colonel level.
Scott:Nope. Had a marriage that was falling apart. Things just went poorly. I was acting while so employed as a full Colonel commanding an air component in Haiti. There's no bespoke way to be doing this.
Scott:And the more that we can get everybody online with that, that it's the right exposures and that we need a variety of different exposures. This diverse ideas and opportunities and things like this that these are what's gonna make our teams really rich and our experience at those leadership levels rich. We just have to find a way to value these things in a less systemic way of scripts and merit boards and things like this.
Bryan:Taking this back to flight training. In flight training, you are always told what you're doing well and what you can do better. From the perspective of leading and coaching, what are our CAF pilots doing well and what do we need to work on?
Scott:So I think that we're doing well with our technical flying skills. I think our flight safety culture, and I think our tactical mission application planning. I think these are pretty good. And I think we're leading in that realm well, and I think we're coaching our teams well through it. I think that when we put together, detachments and ATFs to go overseas, I think they do well with those types of things.
Scott:Things that I think we struggle with, I think we struggle with electronic warfare. I think we're gonna struggle with the high end missions, you know, a full on fight, global fight, between the US
Bryan:Like a peer adversary kind of thing?
Scott:Well, not our peers. Right? But with a peer adversary with the United States. Right? That's why I say global fight.
Scott:A global fight is gonna be the western Occidental powers, China and Russia and whomever else decides to go North Korea along with them. I think that we struggle with multi fleet integration. I think we struggle with developing first officers in a timely fashion to aircraft commander. And as we just said, high end combat mission planning and support. But more than anything else, and this is my message to pilots, you know, as opposed to the rest of the Air Force and aviation personnel.
Scott:Knowing what it takes to support the aircraft beyond the actual aircraft itself, this is something we don't do well.
Bryan:What do you mean by that?
Scott:Well, I think that Pilots are so hyper focused on and I think that the leaders of pilots are so hyper focused on all those other things that I was talking about. High end combat planning, the mission plan, all the rest of those things. That they forget that when you make that step up the rank ladder, the stuff that happens to support everything that happens before those wheels go in the well and you go airborne. That's the stuff that is going to be complex and complicated and takes all the planning and takes all the coordination in the world. I don't want to say the easy stuff, but technically the easier stuff is that stuff that's going forward.
Scott:Now it's hard, but it ain't as complex as the stuff on the back end is. And we have a real lack of understanding of what it takes to create availability and serviceability. Just ask a pilot. What's the difference between availability and serviceability? How do you create real good fleet availability?
Scott:As you become a flying supervisor, you have to know and understand this. Because you have to understand the way that squadrons and the detachments move together to be able to enable that piece. And if you can't, you're not gonna be able to program flying operations in a way that's gonna be able to defeat the enemy because you're gonna be overcome by your the limitations on your own logistics. It's not every aircraft serviceable all the time because that's just not gonna be a reality. And the answer is you're gonna have to understand more of that back end pieces.
Scott:And and I think that's a place where we could mentor and coach our teams better. I think that aircraft commanders need to lead crews and place them in ever increasingly challenging situations. And I don't just mean the tactical high end combat tact, you know, how does the Aurora gonna deal with a medium to high level threat with a limited electronic warfare capability and all of the limitations that we saw in Syria and Iraq? It's not just about that. It's about that sonar operator or radar operator that says, you know, 20 minutes before the launch, I ain't going and you can't make me.
Scott:How often do we put aircraft commanders or first officers in their training in that situation? So what are you doing? How often do we put them in front of a role playing master corporal who says who's very adamant and maybe a little brash and tactless and says, you know, exercise, exercise, exercise. Listen, expletive, expletive, expletive. I ain't going and you can't make me.
Scott:Putting people in those real leadership conundrums. Allowing them to access. Okay. Hold on. Because the reaction that I've seen from a lot of people that get put in these kind of situations, they tend to repeat the threat.
Scott:They repeat how they've, you know, and and then repeat what the mission is and say, let's go. And then when someone says, no, I'm not going, they just do the same thing slower and louder. Like you don't speak English. As opposed to going, Kaela, what's the first thing you would do? Some, you know, I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, Brian.
Scott:What's the first thing you'd do?
Bryan:I'd ask why.
Scott:And here we go. But that's not the real reaction that happens, you know. I might even separate that individual from everyone else first and sit and say, hey, listen. Are you okay? Yeah.
Scott:Because you're okay yesterday. You're okay. I don't understand. Something happened because you're getting after that. That connection.
Scott:Remember we were talking about this right on the front end? Aircraft commander needs to establish that connection. Leaders need to establish that connection. You're gonna use this is the situation. We're gonna use that connection to be able to say, I need I need to understand this.
Scott:You need to make me understand this. Because you do understand we have a job to do. You have just not me and not today. My wife just oh, oh, it's about you and the specific thing. Okay.
Scott:I can deal with let's put this in context. Let's try to whatever it is. But we don't put our people in these kind of situations. And when we're assessing people for advancement in a rank within the Canadian Air Force, we don't see these situations and the evolutions of these as being the gates by which we say, hey, these individuals have walked through these leadership gates. We've watched how they no.
Scott:They've got this course. They've got this thing. They've ticked in the box. It's not how they led. It's that they were a flight commander.
Scott:Did you ask the flight whether you think that this guy should be a light colonel? Well, maybe you should. Right? If there there's a lot of things out there that I think we could do better. Now systemically, this is really tough to do.
Scott:Remember, I'm out now. When I was in, I was the guy responsible to try and put a system over this so that we could actually do this. Right. Now that I'm out, I'm just saying you've got to figure a better system to be able to assess leaders that are going to be bigger than this. This is going to be a really challenging space to lead in.
Scott:And this is why I say knowing and understanding how to lead with stuff that's outside of just the cockpit becomes essential to enable flying operations.
Bryan:So am I getting it right that you think one of the big challenges for an aircraft commander, let's say, it has a lot to do with engaging with all the supports that actually make the mission happen. I think what you're saying is that when we take off and we go conduct a mission, this is the stuff we're really good at. But the stuff that we really need to work on is all the things that come beforehand that actually make that mission happen. Yes. Yes.
Bryan:Okay. Interesting.
Scott:To be clear. Right? I think technically and and this is a completely other thing. To our allies, we are becoming more and more technically unwanted. We we can't fit in.
Scott:We can't fly in the right environments. The technology that we're employing is so dated. It's becoming a liability to the high end gen 5, you know, oriented battle space deeply connected battle space of the future. From an Air Force point of view, I know that Chris McKenna and the team at the Royal Canadian Air Force are working to try and overcome all of those things. But if you cast that aside, all of that support piece that enables the tail of that whatever machine and tactical piece to move forward, this is where our allies would love us to contribute significantly.
Scott:And yet we don't see the back end of our operations as being Air Force capabilities. We see them as being support to our already aircraft centric Air Force. And that's not necessarily true. Right? Like the air expeditionary wings of the United States Air Force own no aircraft because they're expeditionary wings.
Scott:They're actual installations. You add the squadrons to them so they can operate there. But the real capability developer is the expeditionary wing. That's the capability.
Bryan:Interesting. So we've been talking a lot about leadership skills and what we're doing well and what we need to work on. And the big thing I wanna always bring this back to, especially as actionable advice for pilots, for aircraft captains, for first officers. So in this case, how do we develop the aircraft captains that are leading, mentoring, and coaching in the aircraft?
Scott:I actually think this is simple. It's gonna be hard to do, but I think it's simple. We're talking about leading, mentoring, and coaching. These are the skills you want? Fine.
Scott:First off, flying supervisors, expect that. You expect, this is about that trust thing, right? Giving trust at a 100%. I'm going to expect that my aircraft commanders are leading, mentoring and coaching first officers. I'm going to expect that my flying supervisors are leading, mentoring, and coaching aircraft commanders so that they're following up.
Scott:They're setting those examples. I'm going to write evaluations. I don't know what the current evaluations, but it used to be called PERs, now Patmos or something else. But you're going to write evaluations on that. How, not on how they fly.
Scott:That's the baseline. Remember we talked about competence? You have to be competent in the aircraft. That's why you have a category. That's why you have standards officers.
Scott:That you can fly the aircraft is fascinating to me. That you're leading, mentoring and coaching first officers well to develop them. That's what gets you advanced in rank. That's what makes you a leader. That's what we should be writing PERs on.
Scott:So if you do those things, then the follow on part that's even more harder, then that's what you promote. That's what you reward. That's what you're telling people that you want to reward is people that are mentoring teams along, mentoring crews along, people that they wanna fly what they wanna fly because they learn from these people. These are the people you're promoting. These are the people that you're advancing.
Scott:And there it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy that the the best pilots, the best aircraft commanders, the best ones that are bringing first officers along are the ones that are ultimately being the best leaders. And that's the ones that we're making, flying supervisors and flight commanders.
Bryan:So it sounds like, like you said, it's pretty simple. Basically creating a culture where we are advancing the people who have these traits that we wanna see in pilots.
Scott:Absolutely. And although that's simple, the hard part, right? Someone used to say leadership, it's simple, but it ain't easy. Right? The hard part to this is that, well, that's not the thing that's going to make them stand out.
Scott:They're going to have to organize the, you know, the wing party or the air show for the That's not the things that we need to be rewarding and focusing on. And so focus on those right things. He flew an excellent tactical mission. Okay. Maybe there's an element of competence in there at that captain rank.
Scott:I'm good with that. But realizing that as you crawl up to those next rank levels, that tactical competence is going to wane in light of other skills and other organizational and development skills. You know, if you're a major and you're not teaching your flying supervisors and aircraft commanders how to time manage and balance between the things that you have, Then I don't understand what you're doing if you're not being an example. If every major's cubicle you go past, you go, oh man, I don't want to be him. Then you're not setting an example because nobody wants to be you.
Scott:Like at one point in time, this is just going to be, you're going to create the culture that you want, you know, to fulfill. And that's gonna be where you're at.
Bryan:Yeah. So it's kind of like, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy that you need to put in motion. Absolutely. Okay. So we're gonna get into what are normally our last three questions, and then I'm gonna ask a quick couple follow on questions just specific to you and your book.
Bryan:So the first one here is what was the most important thing you did to keep yourself ready to do your job?
Scott:So two things. First thing, in my early days of flying, I read and studied everything. I stayed curious about flying and tactics. And second, as I became a a leader and a little bit older, sustain number 1. Right?
Scott:So you're still reading, you're still doing all of this, still trying to be the best, the most professional guy in the cockpit, that kind of stuff. But then it was fit to fight mentally, physically, eat, sleep, hydrate, play and relax, and maintaining that balance. And it's because you wanna be able to do those things to sustain number 1.
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. I especially agree. I think it's so easy as you get busy to forget about the fit to fight part. It's really easy to let your own well-being drop off the radar while you're taking care of all these other things, especially as life goes on and you have kids and you maybe you're getting promoted or you're now in a aircraft commander role and you're mentoring a crew or all these different things.
Bryan:But it is so important. We had a guest on a little while ago, Greg Jurlink, and he was talking about his mental well-being. And, he said that he finds that if he takes care of his body, his mind will follow. And it's something that I've been trying to do recently is realizing, like, hey, this is really important. This taking care of yourself thing is really crucial to being effective in life.
Scott:And it's gotta be routine. Like, anybody who's been a fitness nut and I'm a bit of a fitness nut triathlon kinda stuff for a lot of years, It becomes a drug that you need. And I'm a morning workout guy. So, you know, if I had to be at work at 6:30, 7 o'clock in the morning, then I'm up at 4, 4:30, and I'm getting that workout in. And I'm going to sleep earlier in the night so that I can be up and and do those things.
Scott:And it's creating that that balance so that you can be fit to be coherent, cognitive in the cockpit, be focused on the mission. That's and and like I say, it's gotta be a routine. It's gotta be something that you're searching for all the time.
Bryan:What do you think distinguishes a great aircraft captain as a leader from just a pilot?
Scott:So being a good pilot is an honorable thing. Great hands and feet. Good with the machine. It's a it's a good thing. But a great aircraft commander coaches their crew.
Scott:They're always developing their 1st officers to replace them, and they're seeking out the opportunities and advancing those First Officers into those opportunities to fulfill aircraft commander duties, take on those responsibilities, and lead themselves. And you're doing so within that safe space. What I used to tell First Officers is look, unless you're trying to kill us, there's nothing that you can do with this aircraft. That, right? So let's let's do, let's let's test this.
Scott:You're making the decisions here. You're doing this. You can't make a bad decision because if there's something wrong, I'm going to say so. But just go. It's your machine.
Scott:You're in charge. Act like the aircraft commander. And if you just keep on reinforcing that. And then the other thing is, and this was tough for me. Shut up.
Scott:Like as an aircraft commander, right? Person's making the decisions. Yeah. Reinforcing is good, but with small words. Right?
Bryan:Yeah.
Scott:So, we're going to turn left here. We're going to do this thing like that. I just have to nod. They look over and go, Okay. Yeah.
Scott:You're just reinforcing that they're making all the right decisions and then be that competent first officer role playing for them. That's the best thing you can do.
Bryan:And that's not easy for some of us. Like those of us, like you and I who like to talk, it is hard to know when to just shut your mouth.
Scott:Yeah. That's that's a lifelong skill. Right? And that goes in line with that tactless thing.
Bryan:Yeah. I'm still working on it myself. So
Scott:Yeah. Me too.
Bryan:What would your advice be to a pilot who is about to step into a leadership role for the first time, perhaps as as an aircraft captain?
Scott:So, yeah. First thing I would say is study, keep learning, you know, stay curious. You have to be competent. That's gonna, you know, underpin that trust, especially in military operations. Then the consequences are are way too big not to be.
Scott:Secondly is stay open. And stay open to learning while knowing when to be decisive. And that's a hard balance to make. Yes. I'm accepting input.
Scott:Yes. I understand where you're at. Yes. You know, this information is good CRM. But at one point in time, you're gonna have to make a decision.
Scott:You have to get on with it. So being open while knowing when to be decisive and don't apologize for either. Right? I'm not apologizing for being vulnerable and open at the same time. I've cut off everything and I'm making a decision because time is at the essence.
Scott:We're just going to do that. That's it. And the last thing is be deliberate about how you want to lead your crew. I say this to all young leaders. If I could give one piece of advice, get a journal and start journaling not on just how you feel, but how you're leading.
Scott:And then be critical of yourself. Did I really want it? If I had to start all over, if someone gave you a crew and said you are going to go into operations and keep that same crew for the next 6 months and fly and fight in combat with them. How would you want to start leading that crew so you can make it the best crew? I've been listening to this, Netflix special on the Lancaster and they talk about World War II.
Scott:And in the beginning of this, they came out of training and they had all these gunners and observers and they're all sitting around this big, you know, mess hall building and they say, great, go form crews. They didn't form the crews. They let everybody pick their own crew. And what what's fascinating is you talk to all the vets and they go, no, no, we had the best crew. Everybody had the best crew.
Scott:Okay. Well, then make that best crew.
Bryan:Yeah. I like that a lot.
Scott:Yeah. Me too.
Bryan:So that does it for our discussion on leadership. I do have a couple questions for you. The first one is, do you have any other writing projects in the works?
Scott:Yes. So I've been asked by a few people who've, read the book and business and government that they'd like a pocket guide that encapsulates some of the checklists and tips that I have from the book, but squeezes it down or something they could put in their pocket and carry around, make as a quick reference.
Bryan:Kind of like an aide memoir.
Scott:That kind of thing. I don't know. It's an idea. I have 2 fiction ideas. One of them is a compilation of leadership short stories.
Scott:So, like, ideas I have in my mind that could demonstrate some of the concepts that I have, you know, around leadership. But in a way, there was someone go, oh, wow. You know, like it's more of a story than it is. Mhmm. Because the leadership book is a book on leadership and coaching.
Scott:This is just a story, but it would be centered on those concepts of ideas and leadership and stuff like that. And the other one's something completely different. But, yes, I have some other works I won't stop writing. Cool. Whether I publish anything else, I don't I don't know.
Scott:Okay. When you're
Bryan:doing something creative, like when I started doing this podcast, it's not always about publishing it and having, you know, a 1000000 people listen to it. Something some part of that process is just, hey, can I make this? Can I make something I'm proud of? And then you kinda go from there.
Scott:And the other writing project that I I will continue, I have a I call it a leadership forum, but it's basically a newsletter on leadership and coaching, and it's called Synapsis. It's like connecting the synapsis of your brain. And whether it's interviews, you know, I've interviewed Tom Lawson and Steve Lucas, so ex commanders of the Royal Canadian Air Force and CDS, and walked through their ideas on leadership and coaching, kind of pull them out, squeeze them in. It's all, and I put them in, I organize it in 3 category areas of people, concepts, and tools. I'm trying to get to some pragmatic tools for people.
Scott:And if you go to my website, you can sign up for that. And there's a lot of people in there. I'm looking forward to maybe interviewing. I could, and you know, some people like this to try and get out the ideas on concepts and leadership and coaching. It's not just military leaders, a lot of civilian leaders, CEOs of big organizations, doctor from the UK, this kind of stuff.
Bryan:Okay. Very cool. And that kind of dovetails into our next question, which is where can people buy your book? Where can they check out your other projects? Sounds like you have a website.
Scott:Yep. So the website's www.scottclancy.ca. I always say, you know, go there and click on the links there. You can, hit me up. Scott at scottclancy.ca is the email.
Scott:You can get the book, developing coaching leaders just by typing that in to, Amazon. It's available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. There's also a link on the website that'll take you right there, and it's available in on Audible and iTunes for audiobook.
Bryan:Awesome. Scott, do you have any other thoughts you wanna leave us with?
Scott:I just wanna make a pitch. You know, since I've left the the service, I keep on saying this. I am so eminently proud of the Royal Canadian Air Force, especially 2024, its 100th anniversary year. I believe that the young people in the air force are smarter, stronger. They are more willing to adapt and more capable to adapt than a lot of us older folks are.
Scott:And I'm so proud of the people, that are in there. I I think there's nothing but good things, that are gonna have to happen or going to happen for the Royal Canadian Air Force based upon the people that there will always be challenges. There will always be equipment challenges and governmental challenges and operational deployments and international blah blah blah. But it's the people that will make the difference, and we have great people. That's what makes me so awe inspired for the RCF.
Bryan:Yeah. I totally agree. Scott, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today and to answer all these questions. I think this was a really interesting conversation. But more than that, I think we gave some young leaders some really practical tips and tools that they can walk away from this with.
Bryan:So I do hope that, listeners check out your book, check out your website. And, again, thank you so much for being here.
Scott:Thanks again for having me.
Bryan:Alright. That wraps up part 2 of our discussion with Scott Clancy on leadership in the RCAF as well as his book, Developing Coaching Leaders. For our next episode, we'll sit down with Ben, a special operations forces operator who decided to switch to pilot. We'll talk about why he made the switch, what his experience has been like on phase 1 flight training, and what his successes and challenges have been so far on the next episode of the pilot project podcast. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this episode?
Bryan:Would you or someone you know make a great guest? Do you have a great idea for an episode of the show? You can reach out to us at the pilot project podcast atgmail.com or on all social media at atpodpilotproject. As always, we'd like to thank you for listening today and ask you for your help with the big three that's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us 5 stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.
