Bryan: 00:00

Hey, folks. This is your host, Brian Morrison. I just had a couple points for you before this show starts. First of all, you may remember that we had teased that the next episode would be with Ben, a former special operations forces operator. However, to make things fit with Remembrance Day, we've chosen instead to air this next episode, which will be a 2 parter, and then we will air Ben's episode after Remembrance Day.

Bryan: 00:23

The second thing I'd like to say is today, our audio for the guest starts out a little rough for the first about 30 minutes. We ask that you hang in there because it is still a great discussion. Without further ado, here is the episode.

Bryan: 01:04

left. Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is former CEO of the Canadian Forces Air Crew Selection Centre, Dave Chamberlain.

Bryan: 01:16

Dave, welcome to the show, and thanks so much for being here.

Dave: 01:19

Thank you, Brian.

Bryan: 01:20

Before we start, let's go over Dave's bio. Dave was born and raised in the Orleans suburb of Ottawa. He joined Air Cadets at 12 and, through cadets, got a glider pilot license at 16 in 1997 in Comox, BC. He did private pilot scholarship in 1998 in Saint Jean, Quebec. And for our Canadian Forces listeners, yes, this was right by the mega.

Bryan: 01:40

He flew in a local club in Ottawa for the rest of high school. In 2000 to 2003, Dave did the Sioux College Aviation Technology program and left with a commercial multi IFR pilot license. Dave joined the Canadian Forces in 2004 through the CEOTP program or continued education officer training plan. He skipped phase 1 due to his flight experience. He did phase 2 alpha in Moose Jaw in the spring and summer of 2006 and phase 2 bravo through the fall.

Bryan: 02:06

Dave completed phase 3 on the Hawk in the winter and summer of 2007. He completed phase 4 in late summer 2007 to February 2008. Dave went on to complete the fighter pilot course in June 2009 and was posted to 4 0 9 Tactical Fighter Squadron on the CF 18 from 2,009 to 2,011, mainly flying Northern sovereignty and quick reaction alert or QRA. Dave flew for op podium during the Vancouver Olympics in 2010. He was then posted to 419 Tactical Fighter Training Squadron on the Hawk as an instructor pilot in 2,011.

Bryan: 02:38

In 2015, Dave was posted to Trenton where he worked wing ops for about 2 years until a promotion and posting to 436 transport squadron on the c one 30 j in 2017. In 2019, he deployed the op presence in Dakar as the detachment commander for about 4 months. In 2020, he was posted to 426 transport training squadron to be the tactical training flight commander for the c one 30 j operational training unit. In 2022, Dave was posted to CFASC or Canadian Forces Air Crew Selection Center as the CO. Now in 2024, he is freshly posted back to 436 Transport Squadron as director of operations, which is a unique position due to the size of the squadron where he supervises the current operations officer, plans officer, training officer, and scheduling.

Bryan: 03:22

Today, we'll talk about Dave's career a little bit, then we'll get into some questions about aircrew selection. We'll cover questions the audience, particularly on Reddit asked, as well as some FAQs that Dave and the folks at the selection center get asked fairly often. So let's start with the standard question. Where did aviation start for you?

Dave: 03:38

I mean, definitely, my my earlier year is kinda hard to push. I don't know exactly when it was sort of the thing I wanted to do for a living, but, I got a couple of opportunities as a young kid, specifically one to just go for a a flight in a in a light Cessna airplane. And I was always about 11 or 12 years old, and, I told my parents how much I enjoyed it, and I kinda thought that's what I maybe wanted to do. And I guess they did a little bit of research and found out about air cadets and suggested that, maybe that's something I would wanna try. So I did.

Dave: 04:08

Signed up for air cadets right when I was 12 years old and took off from there.

Bryan: 04:13

It's a super common story on this show that I would say the majority of my guests started in air cadets, and I did as well. I I joined when I was 14 years old, and it's such a great program. I just can't believe that there's still a program in Canada where you can go and get your pilot's license for free. It's such a amazing opportunity.

Dave: 04:31

It is. I think if we look at it, though, from the d and d sort of military side, I don't know that they even invest enough. I think it's, it's a good bang for for their buck in terms of the number of dollars that get put into the cadet program. And then as you say, a lot of your guests, turn around and end up joining CAF. And And even those who don't, they they get a lot of, valuable sort of leadership, citizenship, background, things that they'll bring forward into the economy.

Dave: 04:59

I just think it's a it's a beneficial youth program no matter whether somebody ends up ultimately joining CAF, whether as a pilot or not, or whether they just take that, that good experience and just use it to be, maybe more more productive and more successful people that start their lives.

Bryan: 05:15

I totally agree. Like, it's officially not a recruiting tool, of course, but it essentially acts as an unofficial recruiting tool. And what you're getting out of that is somebody who already has all the basic skills. They're gonna need to do well in basic training. They basically have a leg up in, you know, all those little things that make life a little more stressful when you first get there, even right down to, you know, ironing your uniform, knowing how to do drill, knowing how to make a bed properly, all those little things.

Bryan: 05:42

And, of course, if you get your flight experience and then you join as a pilot, you have that little leg up for you both from your air cadet experience as well as your flight college experience. So, yeah, I agree. How did you find your flight training experience in the forces? And did you find your previous experience gave you a leg up over your peers, or did they catch you fairly quickly?

Dave: 06:03

There's no doubt I benefited from all my previous flying experience, whether it would be through the cadet program. For all that, it's just a civilian, private pilot's license at the end of the day. Because of the way the program is structured even at that sort of ab initio level, there's still a performance grade on every flight you do. And unlike, say, if you showed up to flying club and paid for your own flying training where you could just essentially keep pumping dollars in until you were successful. With the cadet programs, you are held to a certain progress standard.

Dave: 06:32

And if you don't make it within the time, they have a lot of it's sort of an upper out. So it gets you used to that mindset of, you know, every flight is an opportunity to learn, but it's also you're also being evaluated. And there is performance expectation. So I think it teaches you and motivates you to show up prepared all the time. Pay attention to debriefs, get the information you can from a debrief so you show up for the next flight better prepared.

Dave: 06:53

And that actually carried on into the Sioux College program that I did where, again, it was actually graded the same way as we grade in the, the class where it's a 1 to 5 performance scale, 5 being essentially perfect, perfectly performed with no, no significant errors. To, you know, one being you couldn't do it under any circumstances sort of deal, but created the same way. So, again, it gets used to that sort of formal, almost rigid way of thinking about going into a little lesson, extremely well prepared for what you're going to be doing that day, and then formally debriefed with, hopefully, some root cause identified. And, it teaches you that cycle of, you know, take the debrief, use it for your next flight, arms you with questions for the next briefing. So that that definitely gets you into that mindset.

Dave: 07:38

And then, of course, showing up to Moose Jaw, even though I bypassed phase 1. Showing up to Moose Jaw, I already had the commercial, the multi engine, the IFR training, and a lot of what you do in Moose Jaw prior to talking about phase 2 bravo at the time. But prior to being streamed into either helicopters, transport, or jets, A lot of what you're doing is sort of that clear hose, that basic VFR flying or that IFR flying and having done a fair amount of both. It was definitely beneficial because it meant that a lot of background knowledge, the IFR rules, and everything are the same. The basic techniques of the cross check and everything else you're gonna be doing, essentially the same.

Dave: 08:13

So I'd like to think that it's just, you know, awesome, but, there's no doubt I benefited from all that, all that experience I got before, and I was fortunate to get all that experience before, all subsidized. So a number of new programs like the Sault College program where you just pay your basic college tuition, and essentially the flying is free as long as you perform. So no doubt a huge benefit at public expense for me, but, I've paid it back now that's served as long as I have.

Bryan: 08:41

Yeah. Definitely. Did you notice that there was, like, a significant difference when you started phase 2 between you and your peers?

Dave: 08:48

Yeah. Not just me, but I think so at the time, at least, phase 1 bypass was granted to anyone who had graduated one of these sort of government subsidized and overseeing college programs. Because I think historically, they had shown that, you know, it just wasn't necessary because we were that much better prepared. So everyone who came from all those college programs wasn't about the same boat I was. We're there, you know, what's going on.

Dave: 09:11

Already had a fair amount of experience in that formal flying setting. I already had a good understanding of BIFAR rules and all the things that, you know, you're expecting to pick up on phase 2. So there was definitely a little bit of a delta, and it allowed us to sort of help out some of the other folks who are going through it at the same time, help them with some engineering and stuff. And then by sort of tutoring or helping people study at night, you pick up a lot yourself that maybe you didn't know why it's best. Like, teaching is one of the best ways to reinforce your own understanding of things.

Dave: 09:42

It was a it was a win win for sure to have that extra knowledge and then be able to sort of share it around.

Bryan: 09:47

Yeah. For sure. One thing I thought was interest I was in the same boat. I skipped phase 1 because I had done the commercial multi IFR at University of Western Ontario. And one of the things that I found very interesting was I definitely found that at the outset, I was ahead, but it was really interesting how quickly that gap closed.

Bryan: 10:04

Like, the efficiency of the Canadian Forces flight training is really obvious. It's just really amazing how quickly they could bring people up to speed and and very quickly close that gap.

Dave: 10:14

For sure. And I I see it. I mean, one of the primary ways or one of the one of the reasons for that would be, you're sort of living it every day. So city side, you might have a have a day job that you're doing while you're trying to pay for your your flying on the side. You're doing it sort of as you can afford it.

Dave: 10:33

Obviously, you join the CAF. That is your full time job when you're loaded on a course. That's all you do all day every day. And on top of that, I was already common at the time, so I was living outside the barracks, but those who are living in sort of the residential combinations of the barracks, we're gonna call it. Were sort of immersed 247 in that flying train experience.

Dave: 10:51

So at night, you were still hanging out with people that you you were in class with all day. So there was always opportunities to study. And those of us who lived in in the, you know, outside of those barracks could still stop by, and there's always somebody around that you could go and and and talk to about what you were doing that day or that week. And I think just by having that level of intensity and that that level of frequency, can definitely steepen the learning curve. So it's definitely the way to do it if, if you're going to do it.

Bryan: 11:21

Yeah. That's really good insight. I hadn't thought about that before, but that's a huge that's obviously a huge contributing factor that you're just basically immersed in it 247, especially, like you said, if you're staying in barracks. So that's a good point. You were one of those folks who was lucky enough to fly the CF 18.

Bryan: 11:35

What was your coolest experience flying the Hornet?

Dave: 11:38

Oddly enough, probably the first trip. So I had never, I'd never gone to any of JT or on the job training, in either the fighter base before. So I never even sat in a Hornet, before my first flight, really. So Wow. And, on top of that, it was done as part of a through the CBC, mini doc, but it would all be done and recorded.

Dave: 11:59

So instead of doing the the sort of standard clear hood lung profile that you do, we got a clean jet to be able to perform better. And it was a cold winter day, and, so the engines were obviously performing better than they normally do. So really cool experience. My very first takeoff in Hornet was a clean Hornet with a a full afterburner takeoff. So the acceleration was, you know, probably double what I'd ever seen in the Hawk or anything else.

Dave: 12:23

Yeah. Just a really cool way to sort of introduce to the jet because it's such a huge leap in performance. So it sort of exceeded my, my expectations, if you will. So that's a a flight that stuck with me.

Bryan: 12:36

That's awesome. Can you explain to the listeners what you mean when you say a clean jet?

Dave: 12:40

Sorry. Clean jet, meaning no no external stores. So typically, most tactical fighters like the, the f 18 or the f 16 or anything, that sort of thing, we're very fuel limited from the outset. So you tend to carry external fuel tanks. Additionally, any bombs or missiles or weapons or pods you might have on, everything contributes to drag and adds weight, so they all come with a performance penalty.

Dave: 13:03

So when we fly CleanJet, that means, you know, no external stores, so you are getting the best performance you're gonna get out of the airplane in terms of thrust to weight and thrust to drag.

Bryan: 13:12

Okay. Awesome. So you did your several flying tours, and you ended up at the selection center. Can you tell us more about the path that led you there?

Dave: 13:22

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Air crew selection center for me was honestly more of a target of opportunity than anything else. Myself along with a lot of people, like, geographic stability is very important.

Dave: 13:32

So the selection center being in Trenton made a really good fit. And to be honest, for all that I went through air crew selection like just about everybody else, so I kinda in the back of my mind, I knew it was in Trenton. I didn't know a lot about it. It was just offered up by my CEO one day, say, hey. Due for posting sometime soon, this this opportunity is here.

Dave: 13:51

You'd probably be a good fit. Are you interested? And I said, yeah. Of course. And, yeah.

Dave: 13:56

So I sort of just fell into it, but it turned out to be a great opportunity, a good, good spot to spend a ground tour if you have to spend a ground tour. So for anyone out there who's looking for a a ground tour, you can keep it in mind.

Bryan: 14:10

Right on. It's always interesting to hear people who I think as pilots, we have this tendency to, at least certainly at the beginning of our career, all you wanna do is fly. And if possible, you wanna fly operationally even. Like, a lot of people don't even wanna take that time out of school. But it's interesting as our career moves along, you start to see the value in maybe it's maybe it's actually good to take a break from operations and go to a school for a while, or maybe it's even good to take a break from that and have just the, hopefully, 8 to 4 kind of job of a ground job where you can focus more on family or whatever else is going on in life.

Bryan: 14:46

And you start to see kind of as you'd move along through your career, you start to see the value in all the different types of postings that a pilot can have.

Dave: 14:54

Yeah. Definitely. And then, you know, in some cases, I don't wanna say it should be maybe it ends up being kind of mandatory anyway, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to spend 7 or 8 or 10 years in continuous frontline operations. I think that's a recipe for burning. And I think, folks start to lose some perspective too, and they they start to get a little bit lost in the in the machine and the chaos.

Dave: 15:18

So it's it's good to take a step back. Go to, like you said, an 8 to 4 job can be can be really good for your family life, but can also just be really good for your own mental health. Take a rest. And then when you go back to the opposite quadrant, you you're ready to go again and, but you maybe still understand that, hey, we're glad balance can still matter. So, yeah, I I do know a few people, because the J model is a single squadron for the entire fleet, which means that, you know, people who keep flying then just can end up staying on that squadron in an inordinate amount of time, especially if they sort of promote and then rehack their tour, midway.

Dave: 15:55

It's not uncommon to see 7, 8 years straight on that squad. It can definitely take a toll on the family and the mental health and everything else.

Bryan: 16:04

Yeah. I totally agree. Burnout is a real concern when you're on a operational line that long. And the other thing I like that you said was the idea of kind of gaining some perspective by doing tours. Because when you're at the pointy end, you see your issues, you see the things that make sense and don't make sense to you and to your peers, but you might not necessarily know the whys and wherefores behind why things are happening that way.

Bryan: 16:28

And if you get a chance to work behind the scenes, you might end up feeling a little less frustrated the next time you're back at the pointy end because you actually understand, like, well, this is why this is happening. This is why this needs to go this way. And and now I understand that, and it's not like it's easy to make assumptions about why things are happening in a certain way when you're when you don't know exactly what's going on behind the scenes.

Dave: 16:51

For sure. Yeah. Peeking behind the curtain can be, good for the mutual understanding piece. And I always try to encourage conversations and getting to know the people who work behind the curtain. It's unfortunate that, our headquarters is sort of dislocated from us.

Dave: 17:05

So, you know, guys in Winnipeg are are running the show, for Mhmm. Some Trenton here. It can lead to some, some misunderstandings for sure and, like I said, some frustration. So being able to to look behind the curtain, it's always nice when one of our folks who came from Squatter is at the other end in Winnipeg, and you actually know the person so you can call them and get sort of some of that, us versus situation that can develop sometimes because, obviously, everybody's got a job to do and is trying to to do their best at their job. But it's not always clear.

Dave: 17:37

Like you said, if you're if you just know an operator your whole life, you might not understand what's going on behind the scenes or some of the reasons why.

Bryan: 17:43

Yeah. And it takes a real intentional effort to avoid those us versus them mentalities. Like, that's not something people intentionally develop. It's just something that sort of seems to naturally happen, just because you're operating in different spheres in different worlds. So it can happen really easily between aircrew and maintainers or aircrew and and headquarters types or or all those different kinds of interactions.

Bryan: 18:06

And it's why it's so important, like you said, to get to know those people and try to develop some mutual understanding between them.

Dave: 18:13

Yeah. For sure.

Bryan: 18:14

Okay. Let's start talking aircrew selection. Can you tell us more about your role at the selection center?

Dave: 18:19

Yeah. In terms of my my personal roles, commanding officer there, it's, actually kind of funny to call it a commanding officer position because there's only 5 people at the center. But that just has more to do with the fact that we're we're dislocated from headquarters in Winnipeg and just gives you the importance of what the center does. They want to sort of assign it that that level of importance. But, the center itself, I guess the easiest way to describe it is we act as the filter between the recruiting center and phase 1.

Dave: 18:49

So if I had to, in sort of layman's terms, unless we just say that we're there to make sure that the folks that we're sending onward to later phases of training at a higher cost. So phase 1 and onward are the right people and people who are as likely as possible to be successful. And I think with the updates in the testing methodology over the past few years, we've seen a pretty substantial increase in the success rate of the candidates that are going forward. So I would say that the selection center is doing exactly what it was designed to do and probably always had, but I'd say that it's probably getting better and is better now than it maybe was when you or I went through.

Bryan: 19:32

Yeah. It's definitely changed a lot. I'm I'm looking forward to talking a bit about that because I know it's changed like crazy since we did it, and it was basically like a bunch of sims and then a couple paper tests.

Dave: 19:43

Right. Yeah. Exactly. Which I don't know. I don't have the, the hard data on how successful or how well validated any of that was.

Dave: 19:52

I can say, I think at least from my perspective, the old testing methodology where it was more sitting in what looked a lot like a flight simulator, maybe intuitively looked like it would test well for, for what makes a good pilot. But I don't think that was necessarily ever scientifically valid. And I think with the cockpits that we are employing now in the CAF, it's probably less and less relevant because I think it focused more on your hands and feet and just maybe 1 or 2 of the domains that we test for now. But it didn't do anything to screen for those skill sets that are probably more important now in airplanes that are fly by wire. Essentially though, like if you look at an F18, probably the easiest to fly airplane that I've ever flown because the computer is doing a lot of the work for you.

Dave: 20:40

But what's challenging about those cockpits is all the systems management and the situational awareness, which is what we focus on more now at the selection level.

Bryan: 20:48

Yeah. That's the interesting thing about flying as an air force pilot is you're not just up there to fly. You're using flight as a means of accomplishing whatever your mission is. So flying is kind of like the background skill while you employ the aircraft to achieve whatever tactical goal you're trying to accomplish.

Dave: 21:06

Yeah. That's that's exactly right. And particularly as we move forward into more and more modern cockpits, we're starting to remove some of those positions, like some of the axos slash what used to call navigators are being employed in fewer platforms or employed in different ways. So a lot of the work that they used to do is now being shifted to the pilots. And a lot of the work that the pilots used to do is now being shifted to the airplane because it's not capable of doing that piece on its own.

Dave: 21:35

So it's kind of an interesting time to be, to be in a sort of selection game because it's, the future is right in front of us and we're looking at some new platforms the next few years as a CAF, and they are probably going to have some some fairly different requirements from the airplanes that they're flying even just a few years ago. Like the, while we are still flying with the legacy H model Hercules or, even the f 18, I think the the f 35 is gonna be another sort of leap forward.

Bryan: 22:04

Yeah. A 100%. So by the time somebody gets to the selection center, what processes have they completed?

Dave: 22:11

By the time they get to aircrew selection Trenton, it sort of depends because we we see people from a few different, places, but, including sort of folks who are already maybe at RMC, or folks who are doing an in service selection where they're already a member of the CAF, but they're in a different trade and they're looking to move over to recruit trade. But I think the vast majority of the folks we see are coming off the streets today are civilians. What they will have done at that point is essentially just the basic recruiting center piece. So they'll have gone in, they'll have done their Canadian force aptitude test, which is different from the test that we administer, but it it's sort of along the same lines. It's looking for, for certain abilities.

Dave: 22:53

They'll have done their their interview at the recruiting center and they'll have been identified as probably suitable or potentially suitable for one of these aircrew trades. And then they'll be sent to us and then we will run them through, you know, our selection process. And then I think we can talk about what goes on after that. I think you might have some questions about that.

Bryan: 23:10

And we will definitely touch on some of that. Will the applicants get any kind of preparation material? And if so, what will it consist of?

Dave: 23:16

Yeah. So I'm glad you asked. I was going to to try and spell out the link, but I'll I'll maybe just send it to you because it's a long one. But there are a couple of, on Canada dot ca, if you know where where to go digging for it or if you just Google Canadian Forces Air Crew Selection Centre, the 2 first hits that come up, I checked them this morning, are are relevant. So, one of them is our candidate guide.

Dave: 23:38

And that actually talks a lot about the test itself and it even gives you some sort of screenshots of what the test is going to look like. And I think that can be really helpful because then you're not sort of surprised the day out. You're sort of you're able to mentally be prepared for what you're going to be looking at. And then the other one is the joining instructions piece, which which has some more information on sort of what to expect, how you're going to get here, where you're going to stay, what you're going to eat, and what your day to day is going to look like. And then there's actually a video link in there as well, which gives a pretty good overview of what to expect over the 2 days of testing.

Dave: 24:12

And it gives candidates a look inside the center. So you'll see the classroom you'll be in, you'll see the testing center and the computers you'll be sitting at. Again, I think that could be helpful sort of for folks who might be a bit anxious about doing the test or coming to do the selection. Just having a visual of what to expect might be helpful, but I'll, I'll send you those links for sure because I think it's important that people coming here have an opportunity to check those out.

Bryan: 24:33

Yeah. For sure. And we'll put those in the show notes so that any of the listeners who are interested in that can check it out on the website and can follow the links to to see those. The first one you mentioned, is that was that like a study guide, essentially?

Dave: 24:46

I don't know if I'd call it a study guide, though. So what's important, I guess, to understand about our test is that the intellectual property of the test is not something that the Canadian Forces or the Canadian government owns. It belongs to a civilian vendor and we use it under license. So they are very careful to protect their intellectual property. So there's not a lot we can release about the test.

Bryan: 25:07

Okay.

Dave: 25:08

So I'll stop short of calling it a study guide, although I think it might be fair to call it a preparation guide in terms of giving people an idea of what they're going to be tested for. And if you, if you look at that guide and you look at what the tests are, I think that will give people a really good idea of what kinds of things they could go out and practice before they show up in terms of getting ready. We're not really allowed to endorse and I won't endorse any particular app or any particular website or anything. But if you take a look at what's in there, I think most people will look at it and go, oh, that looks a whole lot like x, y, zed app.

Bryan: 25:43

And,

Dave: 25:44

I can't speak to whether or not there's any value. We haven't got any hard, good data to say if you do such and such to prepare, you will statistically be x amount more prepared. But I think, intuitively, it kinda makes sense, and I really don't think it it can't hurt anyway.

Bryan: 25:57

Yep. That makes sense. And for our listeners, if it sounds like sometimes Dave is can't directly answer a question, there are nondisclosure agreements involved in this process, and we respect those and so do the trainees who attend. So there are just certain things that can't can't be directly discussed on the show, and we're we're working our way through that as we kind of ask the different questions. So we just have to be patient with that, and that's just the way it is.

Dave: 26:22

We, as the selection center, are definitely not trying to hide anything. We're not trying to make it any more difficult than it needs to be. I think the test stands up very well on its own. As you said, we should respect our agreements with our vendor and, we don't want to step into the territory of violating the trust that we have with them because they do provide us a good service and good support. And, you know, we have an obligation to, to hold up our end of the bargain.

Bryan: 26:46

Okay. So you may or may not be able to answer this question just based on what you've already said. But I asked about preparation material on that same subject. Is there a best way an applicant can prepare for selection testing?

Dave: 26:58

Yeah. So, as I said, go take a look at the candidate's guide and take a look at what the different tests are. You'll see some screenshots, and it'll give you an idea of what the tests are about. And I think most people should be able to kind of get an idea. I know there's and again, I won't point out any links or anything.

Dave: 27:14

I know there's some Reddit threads out there, and I know the RAF, whose test is also very similar to ours, have some other maybe resources that could definitely be helpful. Again, I won't point it to them directly, but I will say that as far as I know, our, our vendor supplies the RAF as well and the RAF have a different arrangement with the vendor than we do in terms of what they can share and what they can push out there. So I think that's that's as far as I'll stick my head code on that one. But, if someone were to go and look up what the RAF test looks like, they'd get a pretty good idea of ours. And, again, you will get an idea of what it looks like just from the candidate guide.

Dave: 27:51

We can release that. That's not a problem. We just can't, specifically endorse any particular preparation method or anything. The other side of that being, if if we were to go and endorse something and then somebody didn't do well, we don't want them to feel like we, we led them astray. So I think it's, part part of

Bryan: 28:08

for sure.

Dave: 28:08

Part of folks showing that they're motivated, we could say is is probably going out and doing some of that research on their own. And it's not it's not very hard to find via via Google. So if, if this is a job or a career that you're interested in, it wouldn't take you that long to find some, some fairly helpful resources. Alright. That's that's not a very satisfying answer to anyone who's, who's looking to, to come our way.

Dave: 28:29

But, I think once folks folks realize that they can Google it, it won't take them all to, to 0 in on the right resource.

Bryan: 28:36

Well, and that's a skill they're going to have to carry forward through their flight training anyways is being able to go into the documents and find the information you need and not always have it spoon fed to you. So you'll need to be able to handle this basic search

Dave: 28:50

function. Exactly.

Bryan: 28:52

One of the things that really impresses me these days is how competitive this process has become and the level of preparation people do try to go into it with. Just talking to various I get a lot of messages, emails, whatever, from listeners who are either have gone through the process or about to go through the process. And the competitive nature now of selection is wild because I remember basically just showing up and thinking, well, I'll just do my best. And, you know, I I went in and performed decently and and got the offer, and that was that. It seems like it's become an extremely competitive process now.

Dave: 29:31

I'll say what I think has probably changed the most other than just the fact that test itself is very different. But I think the Internet has kind of changed the way that candidates can prepare and how they communicate for him. So I think you you said you went through 18 or so years ago or whatever it was. Somewhere from AI, I I went through testing in, 2004. And if we think if we go in the way back machine and think back to the early 2000, there just wasn't that much out there on the Internet.

Dave: 29:57

You couldn't Google Canadian Forces' aircrew selection and get 6 Reddit trends to talk about, sort of what it is that Yeah.

Bryan: 30:04

100%. The

Dave: 30:04

only real resource you had was maybe the recruiting center or if you're fortunate enough to have a friend or a colleague or a family member who has already gone through it, they talk to you about it a little bit, but the resources weren't really out there for you to be able to do much prep beyond what they tell you their Korean style, which is, yeah, go practice your basic math, your mental math, those kinds of things, which is all still valid. But now I think the resources that you can get with a simple Google search are amazing. So you're absolutely right. It means that people can go up much, much better prepared and it can make it that much more challenging, that much more competitive. I think, that's a net benefit for the CAF.

Dave: 30:42

Maybe if you're the candidate showing up to try and get in, you're less happy about that because if you're the one who's going to work hard and get prepared, you'll know that you still have a lot of competition and it can be fierce. And there are only so many slots a year. So even if someone we can I think you had a question about it later, but even if someone makes it through and and and qualifies selection wise, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to get selected and recruited at the end of the day? Because even once they pass their crew selection, they still go to selection boards who will then rack and stack them based on largely based on what their their ASC scores are, but also based on other factors that, that recruiting group determines. So maybe educational background or things like that.

Bryan: 31:26

Yeah. That makes sense. So you just mentioned that, you know, air crew selection has changed a ton since I took it 18 years ago. Can you summarize the process of air crew selection testing from start to finish?

Dave: 31:38

Yeah, for sure. So you go through the recruiting center, wherever that is, your closest one. And, once they determine that you meet the basic eligibility requirements, through the recruiting group, They will load you on a, on a course here or a serial, we call them here. And then they'll then make arrangements for your travel, and all those sorts of things. So depending on where you are in the country, a lot of folks arrive in through Pearson International and Toronto, then make their way to Trenton.

Dave: 32:06

That'll usually happen the night before for candidates who come from everywhere from Alberta East. And if they come from BC or overseas, including the states, then they'll arrive a day prior. So they get an extra day to sort of get their body acclimated to Eastern time and all that stuff. Day 1 of the testing, they'll show up at 800 in the morning. We'll do a bit of admin and processing, give them a brief about what to expect over the next few days, make sure they haven't had any significant issues traveling, etcetera.

Dave: 32:34

Get them to sign a non disclosure agreement as you already mentioned. And then they're into part 1 of the testing. So the total test times around 7 and a half hours, depending on how fast the candidate is. That's a bit over the 2 days. So day 1, they'll do 3 to 4 hours of testing, at which point, and in that time we'll, we'll cut them loose for lunch as required.

Dave: 32:57

Once they complete their testing for day 1, so 3 or 4 hours of testing for day 1, we'll take them into what we call a realistic job preview. What that is is the candidate's first opportunity to talk to an actual member of aircrew might be the day that they arrive at selection. So oftentimes, they'll come from a recruiting center where there are no aircrew members. You know, they might talk to a bunch of army people who will do their best, but don't have that firsthand knowledge and experience. So the realistic job preview, takes about an hour, hour and a half on that first day in the in the afternoon.

Dave: 33:29

It's an opportunity for them to talk to, a pilot, an AECSO, and an AEC.

Bryan: 33:34

AECs are aerospace control officers. They operate as air traffic controllers, air battle managers, and tactical air control party air officers.

Dave: 33:43

It's probably the first time they've had an opportunity to hear it from somebody with actual firsthand experience. And we'll get some really interesting questions, through those that maybe even we haven't thought of, but there'll be some of the simple things like what's everyday life like, what's your schedule like, you know, where can I expect to be posted to, how often will I be posted? When they're trying to get those answers out of the recruiting center, they're getting a very generic sort of answer that probably doesn't doesn't paint a realistic picture. So I think the the RJP or the Realistic Job Preview is probably, important in terms of forming their expectations of what a career will look like for them. And then obviously, even within that, each community can make your, your experience vary quite a bit.

Dave: 34:27

So we do have a little bit of a spread throughout our pilots. If they have specific questions about a specific community, but at the very least, we tend to know who to point them to for a real answer from somebody who's actually done it. So that can be helpful as well, I think.

Bryan: 34:42

Yeah. That's awesome. I don't recall that they used to do that when when I went through. I can't remember for sure because it's quite a while ago, but

Dave: 34:49

I I think it is new. Again, like you, I don't remember ever getting that. I remember maybe our results being yelled out in public to everybody and, and now and then I was like, okay. You failed. You failed.

Dave: 35:00

You failed. You passed. We'll get measured kind of thing. We have a different approach now. So, good segue.

Dave: 35:07

So after that realistic job preview, which again, yeah, I think is more of a modern thing that we do, that'll be the end of their day 1 and they'll be cut loose, for the evening so they can go back to the barracks or to go have dinner. The next morning they're in back at 7:30, 8 o'clock time window and they'll start part 2 of their testing. And that'll be the last of the 7 and a half hours. So again, really depends on the candidate. Sometimes it's quick, sometimes they need a little bit more time and that's fine.

Dave: 35:34

Once they complete their testing, we get results right away out of the system. It'll give us their final results for each of the the different domains, and it'll tell us which of the trades they qualified for or not. And then, again, I think different from when you and I might have gone through, they actually get an individual sit down debrief. So definitely a kinder, gentler approach, but I think a more useful one as well because if they haven't made it through for the trade they selected, for example, they may have still qualified for another trade or another one of the 3 trades that we're we're testing for, which means that we can perhaps just guide them toward that other career that they might not have considered. I think, you know, Top Gun has gets a lot it's a lot of mileage for just sort of off the street people who don't have a background in aviation, but I don't think the, the Wizzos or the, the air traffic controllers in Top Gun get a lot of screen time.

Dave: 36:25

So I think for a lot of people, those are trades that they maybe haven't considered if they don't have a background in aviation or family member in aviation or in the military. So it's an opportunity for us to try and give them, I don't wanna say a sales pitch, but at least open their eyes to, maybe something else they could try. And it may be that they did very well in terms of, hey, you'd make a good air traffic controller according to your test. You just you missed out on some of the stuff for pilot, but those things might be pilot specific and then, we can, we can guide them towards those opportunities. If they're unsuccessful for everything, we can explain the policy for retesting, which is they have to wait 12 months, but that's it.

Dave: 37:01

I think back in our day, if you weren't successful the first time around, you had to go off and you had to pay for your own flying training and sort of make some progress. That's no no longer the case.

Bryan: 37:11

Because you used to have to basically upgrade, I think, a a level of licensing from whatever you had. Like, if you had no pilot license, you needed to come back with a private license. If you had a private license, I think you needed to come back with a commercial license.

Dave: 37:23

That's right. Yeah. And that's that's what I remember as well. So that's gone, which I think is a good thing. Now it's just a it's just a blanket 12 months, wait time, which for better or worse, I think it's just it's it's a way of making sure somebody doesn't do it one day and then try it again 3 weeks later, but it's very, very fresh in their minds.

Dave: 37:40

So maybe it would bias the test.

Bryan: 37:42

Yeah. For sure.

Dave: 37:43

It also shows that if you're willing to go away and wait 12 months and come try it again, you're you're probably serious. This this is something you're willing to to to wait for and go do again. But I think it's great that they've removed that requirement to go out and spend potentially 1,000 of dollars on your own pocket because not everybody can do that. And I think we probably lose out on some candidates just because of that, which I don't think is good for anybody. So it's it's good now.

Dave: 38:07

It's just a straight 12 months and, or you could potentially try for another trade.

Bryan: 38:13

I really like that change in policy. I think the old policy definitely biased against anyone who basically was in any way financially disadvantaged. Most people cannot afford to go and, in a year, get a private pilot license or especially a commercial license if you already had a private license. Let's say

Dave: 38:30

I totally agree. And, yeah, at a certain stage, we're also looking potentially to recruit. So so a lot of the DEO folks right there post university. They're at a certain stage of life.

Bryan: 38:41

And when you say DEO, that's Direct Entry Officer?

Dave: 38:44

The folks who are walking in off the street already with their degree. They're at a different stage of life from an ROTP, so the regular officer training plan, those those RMC candidates. They probably already have a family and other obligations. So to ask them to go and spend within a year ago and get maybe a commercial pilot license, I think that's probably not realistic. No.

Dave: 39:03

Or or a good it wouldn't be a good family decision for them in the first place because it's a huge gamble at the end of the day. So I think it's great. Yeah. You just wait a year if you can if you can afford to wait a year. If you've already got something else going on, then, you have the opportunity to come and try it again.

Dave: 39:15

And you can do it up to 3 times, so that's a lifetime maximum. But most people, I'll say, if if they're unsuccessful on their first try, but they're dedicated and they they spend that 12 months off preparing and and doing what they can to, correct the deficiencies that we will have pointed out in their debrief session. Statistically, their second time around, they're much more successful than they were on their 1st go round. So anyone who's close to the line, I'll always strongly encourage to see if you can wait the 12 months, come back and do it again. You'll probably get through, on the 2nd time around.

Bryan: 39:47

Yeah. That makes sense. I know that obviously there's gonna be some advantage for having seen the test before. And like you said, with having a good debrief and going back and specifically working on whatever your deficiencies were, you should have a good chance of succeeding the second time around. So we've hinted a little bit at this, but what metrics are being measured by aircrew selection?

Bryan: 40:08

I've heard people talk about the 7 cognitive categories. Can you tell us a little more about that?

Dave: 40:14

Yeah. For sure. And again, this this information is actually readily available. Those are the links I'll send you, but we can we can definitely cover it here. So the some things we look at first is strategic task management.

Dave: 40:25

So that is kind of being able to prioritize things in real time, being able to plan ahead. So you'll have different, I'll segue here, there are multiple tests and different tests will feed in each of these domains. So some, some tests will feed into more than 1. Others are really only informing 1, but, generally speaking, strategic task management, we really just sort of prioritize plan ahead. Perceptual processing, so that's sort of being able to pick out information from a large field and and pick out what's important and what you actually need.

Dave: 40:56

Short term memory, so literally just being able to remember things in short time. Having other information kind of thrown at you at the same time and then being able to recall what you were shown earlier. So again, it it speaks that ability to sort of filter out what's not important in the moment, which is super applicable to modern cockpits. Spatial reasoning, so and and again, I can talk about this because you'll see it on our on our, preparation material, but it'll be things like it'll show you an airplane, sort of a picture, a 3 d picture of an airplane, and it'll show you the instrumentation. It'll ask you to sort of match up like, hey, which is which?

Dave: 41:33

So it'll give you like 4 pictures of an airplane. It'll show you a set of instruments and it'll go, okay, which airplane does that represent? What's your ability? And it'll, it'll give you other things. And again, if you look at some of the apps that are online out there, it'll give you like a deconstructed box.

Dave: 41:46

It'll give you an image of the fully constructed box and like 4 deconstructed boxes and it'll say, okay, well, which box is that? If you were to flatten it out. It'll have like a different shape on each side, if you will, and then it'll fold it flat. It's your ability for your brain to sort of put that image back together. Another one is symbolic reasoning.

Dave: 42:06

So there's some mental math involved here, and I'd say I'll put an asterisk or a foot stopper here. 1 of the things that I can say, at least anecdotally amongst the staff, what we've noticed is younger candidates, I won't give a number, but I'll say those like the ROTP candidates who tend to be just coming out of high school age and to suffer more in the mental math categories. We can speculate as to why all day long. It could be that they grew up with a calculator in their pocket, whereas the older folks maybe didn't. But if there's something that if I were if I were an 18 year old looking to come to the selection center, symbolic reasoning, the mental math piece is probably something I would focus on.

Dave: 42:46

Just being able to do the quick mental math. I don't need you to be able to do calculus and integrals and stuff, but if you can do the mental calculations, that's something that we do see a little bit of weakness in for some of those younger folks. Psych psychomotor. So this is what they used to test us for in the in the big moving box. Right?

Dave: 43:04

Psychomotor being your hands and feet. Yep. And your your hand eye coordination. So, definitely weighted and and weighted more heavily for pilot candidates. In terms of preparing for it, I mean, if you grew up playing any kind of video games, you're you're probably gonna be okay here.

Dave: 43:19

We literally have, like, a video game controller stick and and some video game panels. The tests consist of different things like trying to hold a cross on a dot in the middle of the screen, and then using the joystick to keep it there as the cross tries to wander away at different speeds and different directions. Literally, your ability to see something happening with your eyes and then correct it with your hands. And then central information processing. So your ability to multitask, if I if I could put it that way.

Dave: 43:48

So you'll have things like, you'll have a fuel number and air speed and a and a distance and a whole bunch of other information, and you just need to be able to maintain kind of a cross check. And then when the fuel gets to a certain level, you have to hit a little green refuel button. When the, you know, the other number gets to a certain point, I have to hit a different button. So it's your ability to just keep a cross check up and then sort of notice that certain things need to be cross checked more often. So develop your cross check as you go.

Dave: 44:13

Again, very applicable. I mean, if anybody who's flown can tell you that's that's probably a core skill. So those are sort of the 7. Again, there's more information available in the guide and probably worth going into for anyone who's coming out to do the test. And then, the guide will also talk it'll break down the the individual tests a little bit further.

Dave: 44:33

I think it would be a bit dry for us to talk about here.

Bryan: 44:35

For sure.

Dave: 44:36

But those those are the sort of things that we're looking at.

Bryan: 44:38

Interesting. You may you may not know because obviously you've only been involved with staff in recent years. Were they testing for all these different cognitive categories back when we did it, or has this been something that's developed over time?

Dave: 44:50

It's definitely developed over time. The, there was some of it back in our day. I don't know if you remember when you went through and I think it was done more at the medical screening level. So if you went to Toronto to DRDC there to get your measurements and stuff done back in our day, they sat you in front of a computer screen and you do a couple of sort of cognitive abilities tests.

Bryan: 45:11

I do remember that. Yeah.

Dave: 45:12

I think it was handled more on the medical side than on the selection side at the time. Now we're definitely taking it on the front end here, so to speak, just to, because it is so applicable to what you're going to do in a modern aircraft.

Bryan: 45:25

Right. And plus, if you handle it there, it's more people through the filter, basically. Right? So, you know, DRDC is is busy like every other part of the military. So the more people that get, let's say, oh, they do every great at everything, but not that part.

Bryan: 45:40

That's probably something you wanna know before you send them for medical testing at DRDC.

Dave: 45:43

Yeah. That's right. And and that's a good, good that you bring that up because back in our day, you'd go through the selection center in Trenton, and then on the same sort of trip, at the end, you'd go to Toronto to Safemie within DRDC and

Bryan: 45:56

get your

Dave: 45:56

testing done. We don't do that anymore. Because of what the pass rate is and resources being what they are, we now bring candidates back. So if they're successful and we'll actually do the measurements at the selection center ourselves. So we'll get the idea of like, do you fit in the cockpits?

Dave: 46:11

Yes, no, or maybe I'm willing to send you for a cockpit check. And then if all of that is successful, so the candidates will go home. But if they're successful with all that, then they'll be scheduled to go to Safini on a separate trip to get measured.

Bryan: 46:25

Okay.

Dave: 46:26

That is unless they're out camp. If they're coming from overseas and, like, they do it on the same trip just to make things a bit easier because the international travel piece.

Bryan: 46:35

Yeah. That makes sense. We were just sort of speaking to this, but what are the potential outcomes at the end of testing?

Dave: 46:41

Yeah. So when you come in at the recruiting center, you'll have given them, you know, you know, your sort of first choice, second choice, what trades you're interested in. What we look at for statistics, is really what your first choice is versus how many pass. That doesn't mean that you'll fail for everything. So if you come in, best case scenario, I guess, would be that you are successful for your first choice.

Dave: 47:02

So let's say you come in for Pilot, you're successful at the end of the day, we'll take your measurements. So we're looking at things like your seated height, your reach, your femur length, just to make sure you fit within at least 2 out of 3 of our training cockpits. And I say this today as of September 2024, this is being reviewed. I think they're, they're going to get a little bit more in detail about different cockpits and sort of trying to make sure that we're taking people who are going to fit because we have had a few cases where people get substantially through their training and then we find out, well, actually you don't fit in these cockpits and we should have only taken you for other things. So it is evolving as a process for sure.

Dave: 47:41

But assuming, assuming you're green and you fit in all those cockpits, you'll go home. You'll check back into your recruiting center. You'll say, Hey, I passed for everything. They'll double check and we'll have already input the data in our system and they'll be able to see that you're successful and that will move your file along to selection boards. And then again, they'll rack and stack, so X number of slots and that changes depending on the requirements year to year or even quarter to quarter.

Dave: 48:08

But if you make that cut, then you'll be given a job offer, you'd be sworn in, and then you're off in the system. So awaiting basic training and so on. If you're not successful for your first choice, but for another choice, again, I'll be part of the debrief process. We'll see if you're interested. At the end of the day, all we do at the selection center is point out what's available or what's possible.

Dave: 48:29

And then the onus is on the candidates to go back to recruiting center and say, hey, I wasn't successful for the pilot like I wanted, but I made it for Axo and I am interested in doing that. And then they'll be on to the selection process or the continued selection process for that. So again, the selection boards, rack and stack, top candidates will be given job offers. Or there is potential that they were completely unsuccessful for anything or that they're not interested in another trade. So they tried to have a pilot, we're not successful, don't wanna do it.

Dave: 48:54

We'll inform them that, hey, you're allowed to come back and try it again in 12 months. Again, onus being on a candidate, go back to your recruiting center, tell them, yeah, I wanna try it again in 12 months, and we'll keep your file open. Or I guess you could decide that, nope, you're not interested or maybe you're interested in something that's not an aircrew trade. And again, that's just between the member at that point and the recruiting center. There are people who come through, they're not successful for any of the aircrew trades, but they think, hey, I'd still be happy to be something else within the CAF.

Dave: 49:23

And there are tons of opportunities, obviously. So

Bryan: 49:25

Mhmm.

Dave: 49:26

Still lots of room for for folks who don't make it for whatever reason through our selection. Doesn't mean they wouldn't be extremely good at something else.

Bryan: 49:32

What percentage of applicants are successful in getting selected as pilot?

Dave: 49:36

So that's a it's a difficult one to give you a straight answer on as you probably gathered that I can't ever give a straight answer. So we we tend to track for first choice success only, which makes it a bit easier because pilot tends to be people's first choice. We rarely see it in the 2nd or 3rd. We see anywhere between maybe 35 50% success on a on a first attempt for first choice pilot. But that doesn't mean that let's say of those 50 to 70% who are unsuccessful pilot, that doesn't mean that they're not successful for Akzo or AEC.

Bryan: 50:11

So

Dave: 50:12

when you say like successful, I can only really speak to that first choice pilot being successful or not. 30 to 50 percent depending on sort of the time of year who we're testing. So DEO, the direct entry, they tend to be a little bit older and perhaps more mature. We're not really sure. We don't have I'd be speculating big time if I sort of take a guess at why they tend to do a little bit better.

Dave: 50:35

But they do tend to do a little bit better than say our ROTP who, you know, in the case of someone coming from Quebec in the CGEP system, they may only be 16 or 17 years old, might be their first time away from home. So I think that probably contributes a little bit to NURBS and just having a little bit of a harder time with the test. But with that being said, if we're testing much older candidates, that can also have an impact on their success. So

Bryan: 50:58

I guess, like like, for example, I'm 38 now, so I'd be an older candidate. And I think about now, like, how would I do if I was walking into aircrew selection, maybe even with my flight experience? I think it would be challenging, because there's so many of those skills that I just haven't like like basic mental math and things that I'm you you know, when I did it when I was 20, I had just graduated high school. So I had done tons of basic mental math very recently. I think as a as somebody who's been going through life now for almost 20 years since then, and not using a ton of those skills, like, I would have to do a lot of study and prep to show up and be successful at this point, I think.

Dave: 51:37

Yeah. That's that's definitely true. There's probably and, again, we haven't really gone to the extent of linking it scientifically to anything in particular, but anecdotally, I can say that anyone over sort of the late thirties, 40, we do see a drop off in performance. And whether that's because you're older and your brain maybe doesn't work the same way anymore, or like you say, some of those basic skill sets are not something you've used. And, the older we get, we know that learning doesn't get any easier with age.

Dave: 52:05

So

Bryan: 52:06

Yeah. For sure.

Dave: 52:07

That can probably have an impact too.

Bryan: 52:09

Mhmm. So you said 30 to 50% of people are successful on their first choice, which is typically pilot. Would you have numbers on what percentage of people who are selected as pilot successfully complete flight training?

Dave: 52:22

I don't have really good recent data, and I don't wanna don't offer too much of a of a guess. What I can say is that attrition at the phase 1. So that is what's done in Portage at the time. The numbers we have are for the Globe, which is a few years old now. I think it's been replaced, but the failure rate went from being fairly significant down into, if not the single digits, definitely the teens.

Dave: 52:48

So it became the exception about the rule that people would not make it through phase 1. So if you make it through aircrew selection now, your odds of making it through phase 1 selection are extremely good. Mhmm. At least compared to what it used to be. Part of the reason I'll be I'll hesitate to comment too on overall success is it really depends where we stick the bar and what fleets.

Dave: 53:08

It becomes a really complicated question to answer because different sub I don't know if you should call it a sub trade, but, you know, as you know, like helicopter, multi engine, fighter, they each have their own success rates within those communities. And then we'd have to try and control for, you know, how how high quality the candidate pool at the time was and how competitive it was and then how successful they were.

Bryan: 53:30

For sure.

Dave: 53:31

So to to give a good robust scientific answer, you should think of their goals.

Bryan: 53:36

Yeah.

Dave: 53:36

But again, the the goal of ASC is to to reduce downstream failures. Yep. And I would say that since you and I went through, it's it's actually gotten better for people who make it through. They're definitely more likely to be successful.

Bryan: 53:48

Which makes sense because that is the entire goal of aircrew selection programs. Like, I was reading some data on, one of the ones that they use in the United States, and they mentioned in their kind of fact book that the program saves them something like $52,000,000 annually in avoiding failed training costs. Now, obviously, our savings would be less because we have a much smaller scale of flight training, but it gives you an idea of kind of what the point of aircrew selection is. The other thing you mentioned the GROW being replaced, just a quick note. I think it has been scheduled for replacement under FACT, future aircrew training, but it's still in use right now still.

Dave: 54:29

Yeah. I think I think you're right there. I I don't wanna get it too much into fact because I'm definitely not a subject matter expert, but, I think for anyone looking at coming to aircrew selection, say today, they probably by the time they get through the system, they'd probably be looking at flying one of those stacked aircraft, downrange.

Bryan: 54:46

That's true. I believe that's true. Yep. Yep. Okay.

Bryan: 54:50

That's gonna wrap up part 1 of our chat with Dave about aircrew selection. For part 2, we'll be talking about questions the audience, particularly on Reddit, asked as well as some FAQs that Dave and the folks at the aircrew selection center get asked fairly often. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this episode? Would you or someone you know make a great guest on the podcast? You can reach out to us at the pilot project podcast atgmail.com or on all social media at atpodpilotproject.

Bryan: 55:19

As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning into this episode and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us 5 stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up.

Bryan: 55:34

See you.