Bryan: 00:00

Hey, everybody. Before the show starts, this is your host, Brian Morrison, with a short note. Can you believe it? We did it again. I teased that we'd be chatting with Ben this week about his time in the special operations forces and switching to pilot.

Bryan: 00:12

Unfortunately, I completely failed to take account for the fact that Remembrance Day was fast approaching. So we'll be having part 1 and part 2 of a Remembrance Day episode, and then we will finally get to our chat with Ben. I know some of you have been anxiously awaiting that episode, but I promise you these next 2 are going to be great, and I hope you enjoy them. So with that, here is today's episode of the pilot project podcast. Fuel ignition switches on, RPM switches.

Bryan: 01:04

Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today for our remembrance day episode is veteran and former RCAF pilot, Duncan MacIsaac. Duncan, welcome to the show, and thanks so much for being here.

Duncan: 01:20

Well, it's my pleasure to be here. Thank you for asking.

Bryan: 01:22

Yeah. It's such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you. Okay. So before we get started, let's go over Duncan's bio.

Bryan: 01:28

Duncan always wanted to fly, and so in 1974, he joined the CAF. After graduating from pilot training in Moose Jaw on the CT 114 Tudor, in 1977, he was posted to 44 3 maritime helicopter squadron flying the CH 124 Sea Kings at CFB, Canadian Forces Base, Shearwater. He served on deployments on HMCS Huron, Saginay, and Annapolis. A posting to 406 Maritime Operational Training Squadron followed, training other Sea King pilots. After 3 years there, he was posted to CFB Trenton at training systems headquarters.

Bryan: 02:01

While there, he was in charge of the officer training courses at CFB Chilliwack and the summer training courses for the regular officer training plan. In the spring of 1987, Duncan was posted to 8 80 Maritime Reconnaissance Squadron in CFB Summerside flying the venerable CP 121 tracker. While there, he flew missions supporting the navy, rocket firing, fishery, coastal, and northern patrols. After the tracker was decommissioned and put in storage in Mountain View, Ontario, he was posted to Corner Brook, Newfoundland as the recruiting detachment commander. While there, he enrolled numerous members into the CAF and was a key instructor for the recruiting course.

Bryan: 02:36

In 1994, he was then posted to 405 Long Range Patrol Squadron flying the CP 140 Aurora in Greenwood, Nova Scotia. As well as fishery and coastal patrols, he participated in exercises such as Unitas in Argentina and RIMPAC in Hawaii. He was fortunate enough to fly the Aurora in formation with 3 Dutch p threes in a 52 plane memorial flight commemorating the 50th anniversary of Operation Mana in the Netherlands. After 405 squadron, he completed his 27 years in the regular force in Greenwood operations and continued working in wing ops for another 8 years as a reservist. Active in the community, he is currently the president of the Hansport and District Lions Club, a position which he has held before.

Bryan: 03:16

A member of the Royal Canadian Legion branch 9, he was the service officer for 5 years and is currently on the Poppy Committee as the head trustee. Duncan has been married to the love of his life, Maureen, for 48 years and has 2 children and 2 grandchildren. So that's a lot of flying, Duncan. What sparked your passion for flying?

Duncan: 03:34

Well, like as my bio says, I always wanted to fly even, as young as I can remember. But, movies inspired me because, I, went to the theater to see anything that involved an airplane, whether it be the Battle of Britain or the fight of the Phoenix, movies like that, and airplanes. So I always wanted to fly, so I joined Air Cadets. And, I was an Air Cadet for a number of years, and the first flight I took on, was the, on the Airbus.

Bryan: 04:04

Oh, wow. That's a classic aircraft.

Duncan: 04:07

Classic aircraft. And I said, looking out the window, I said, you know what? I I think I'd like to do this for a living.

Bryan: 04:13

I've heard the Argus could be a little uncomfortable. It was unpressurized, loud, lots of fumes, could be cold. So if you can go on that and enjoy it, you know you're gonna enjoy flying.

Duncan: 04:23

Yes. That's true.

Bryan: 04:24

So, basically, it's just been something that you've wanted to pursue since you were a kid?

Duncan: 04:28

Yep. Yeah. I always wanted to do that, and, I wasn't sure how I was going to do it, but, I just knew that, I wanted to fly.

Bryan: 04:37

Now air cadets back then, was it still a program where you could get your glider pilot's license and your private pilot license?

Duncan: 04:43

You could. But, being, in Sydney in a air cadet squadron, you had to work really hard. Where we lived, you would often have to pool resources to get transportation into it and and back from it. So it, it wasn't easy. I wasn't involved in any of those programs.

Bryan: 05:04

Okay. Actually, one of the coolest things I got to do, I did my start in air cadet flying programs as well. And one of the neatest things I got to do during my time on the Aurora was we were flying through Sydney, and the cadets were doing their gliding. And, when we left, we did a nice high speed pass and, you know, gave them a wing waggle as we as we flew off, and that was really cool.

Duncan: 05:24

Yeah. Right on. Yep. I should say that, as a cadet, I went to the summer camp in Greenwood. And, when we were there, the single otter, came down and, took us for our flight.

Duncan: 05:37

So that was, the second flight that we're gone.

Bryan: 05:40

Oh, that's awesome. Yep. So you knew you wanted to fly. What made you decide to serve in the CAF specifically to pursue a career in flying?

Duncan: 05:49

Well, that's an interesting story because, like I said, I I wasn't sure how I would build up my hours. I thought maybe I'd have to go up north and, do some bushwhine, but a friend of my brothers told me that the military was taking officers right the out of high school into, a couple of different programs, to be a naval officer, an infantry officer, or an air crew. So I went in there and I said, hey. I'd like to, be Apollo. They told me at the time that every, young man that walks through that door wants to fly, but I said, I don't wanna do anything else.

Duncan: 06:28

That's so, don't put me down for any secondary thing. I just wanna fly.

Bryan: 06:33

That's probably smart because you probably would have ended up as infantry if you put that down.

Duncan: 06:37

Yes. And, I know some guys did that. And, once you're in, you find it very hard to transfer to a different, MOC.

Bryan: 06:47

Yep. For sure. That's even true now. Yep. There's lots of people who try, but it's it's all a matter of what's the current policy and how many people are they taking out of, trades within the military versus recruiting off the street.

Bryan: 07:00

And, typically, they're taking more off the street, so it's definitely challenging to do that. So you joined under the officer cadet training plan. Can you tell us more about how that worked?

Duncan: 07:10

Yeah. I can I can tell you a little bit about it? It was a program that, of course, we experienced the polish order just you know, it's it's kinda like a sine wave. There's too many and there's too few. So the answer to that training program was, initiatives to bring people in quickly and get them trained and, to a squadron.

Duncan: 07:31

And, basically, you have you're coming to high school, you skip university, you go right to basic training, and then on the flying train. At some point, you're supposed to do some French language training, but that didn't happen for me until after my first posting. I don't think the officer got program is is running now. I think you, have to have a degree, so either direct entry or or the regular officer training plan.

Bryan: 07:59

And so this plan, the officer cadet training plan, didn't involve getting a degree?

Duncan: 08:03

That's correct. Now later on, you could. If you wanted to, you could, do courses and and eventually have enough to, do a degree, but I never did. I never did pursue that. But I did the, the after professional development program, which was, the 5 courses that, you had to take that that we had the act number of years to finish them, which I did.

Bryan: 08:27

Oh, yeah. Yep. Those are still around.

Duncan: 08:29

As an aside, they used to call us a 13 week wonders because that was the length of the basic training in in in, Yeah. Certainly, we yeah. Basic training course. So that's what they called us when we initially came through.

Bryan: 08:45

So was the process basically just basic training and then on to flight training?

Duncan: 08:49

Yeah. It was.

Bryan: 08:50

Yep. What was the wait times like at that point? Like, where is it pretty smooth, basic training and then pretty quickly onto your flight training, or how did that go?

Duncan: 09:00

Well, I I joined in 74. There was a period, after basic training that I had to wait until the course started in in Portage, basic line training. But I joined in, October 74, and, I graduated from Moose Jaw in in 76. So 2 years.

Bryan: 09:19

Okay. So I'm not familiar with the history of kind of how our flight training has evolved necessarily because this was back in the seventies. Right? Yeah.

Duncan: 09:27

That's correct.

Bryan: 09:28

So at this time, there was still, like, a phase one program in Portage, and then you go to Moose Jaw where you got your wings. Is that correct?

Duncan: 09:34

Correct. Yeah. That's correct.

Bryan: 09:36

Okay. And and phase 1, what was that like back then? Was that pretty much a weeding out process of trying to kinda get rid of the chaff?

Duncan: 09:43

Yeah. Core phase 1 was, more or less, making sure you had the ability to to fly. And, it's kinda funny because we we had someone on our course who had, like, I don't know, 5 or 600 hours, but it was all crop dusting. And, he had no problem with the the basic flying. When we got to Moose Jaw and, started in the instrument flying, he just couldn't hack that.

Duncan: 10:13

Having I don't know if you're familiar with the Tudor's Hall, but what we call being under the bag, you couldn't see anything other than the instruments, and you try to totally rely on your instruments. So yeah. Yeah. He fell off very hard.

Bryan: 10:27

Yeah. A lot of people find it pretty challenging the first time they go under a hood or, I guess, under a bag, which I imagine is similar. And, all you have is your instruments to rely on. It can be pretty disorienting.

Duncan: 10:37

Yeah. It can be.

Bryan: 10:39

So you did your course on the tutor in Moose Jaw. What were your expectations going into flight training, and how did the reality compare to those expectations?

Duncan: 10:47

Well, I I I really didn't have any expectations because I didn't have a lot of experience with military training at the time. So I just remember, at one point, we visited MooseTop before our car started and looking in the inside the Tudor and thinking, my god, am I ever going to learn how to fly this? But very quickly, I would say by 3 or 4 Clearhood trips, you know where everything was and whatever they did. It was a pretty simple airplane once you get used to it.

Bryan: 11:22

That's funny. I think that's a feeling that most pilots feel at some point when they look into an aircraft, and maybe it's when they look into their first Cessna 150. Or for me, I certainly had that feeling looking into the Harvard 2 at Moose Jaw and and certainly once I moved on to the Aurora. I think that's a really, really common feeling. You look in the cockpit, you look at all these unfamiliar switches, and you think, holy cow.

Bryan: 11:43

How am I ever gonna understand all this?

Duncan: 11:45

Yeah. That's right. Yep.

Bryan: 11:49

So what was the most challenging or exciting part of the tutor course?

Duncan: 11:54

Well, I think the most challenging part was definitely the, the instrument training because, like I said, when you're you're under that bag, you really don't know what's going on until the instructor, decides to take the take the thing down and give you some clear hood and, whatnot so you can fly around inside of, actually just looking at instruments. At the time, the, the, simulator in Moose Jaw was very basic. It had no motion. The instruments would move, but, so you could do the procedure. There's a procedure trainer only.

Duncan: 12:30

So you would, do the procedures and then do it in the real airplane.

Bryan: 12:35

Mhmm.

Duncan: 12:35

Yeah. And, so the most challenging part was being under that bag and, trusting the instruments and and relying on what what you were, seeing with your

Bryan: 12:47

So the simulator was more of a cockpit procedure trainer Correct. Is what we call it now.

Duncan: 12:52

Yeah. Yeah. It was. And then

Bryan: 12:55

what was the most exciting part of the course?

Duncan: 12:57

The most exciting was the formation because at the time, like I said, we we did the full course in Moose Jaw, and, I love formation flying. And, I always remember on my my formation task, the, instructor, my or my test pilot, he looked at me and said, you're going seeking. Right? And I and I said yes. And he said, this is about 20 minutes into the flight.

Duncan: 13:21

He said, if I tell you you pass right now, can I use the rest of time to, do a little formation practice? And, I swear if the cockpit if the, canopy had been opened, I could have talked to you in the right car for the rest of the flight. And it would it was amazing. Yeah. It was true.

Duncan: 13:38

Wow. Yeah.

Bryan: 13:39

So so the instructor was just able to keep it that tight? Oh, yes. Yeah. Had that instructor been a snowbird or something, or just was that good at it from being on the course?

Duncan: 13:48

No. But he was he was trying out for the snowbird, so he he needed the the formation time.

Bryan: 13:53

Okay. Yeah. So it's interesting something you just said there. You weren't done your course, but you already knew that you were going Sea Kings?

Duncan: 14:00

Oh, yeah. Probably about 3 quarters of the way through the course, they would assign people based on the need. And, you know, you always have your choices. You know, 112, and 3, but it's not necessarily your need. It's what's the importance need.

Duncan: 14:20

And it's time that they needed seeking parts. I think probably about 6 6 of us went seeking or helicopters out of, in a Moose Jaw.

Bryan: 14:28

Yeah. That's still pretty much how it works. They do their best. They ask for everybody's, like, top three choices. They ask for your top three locations because maybe they can give you one and not the other.

Bryan: 14:38

But, ultimately, what is the forces need is gonna be they're they're gonna do their best to make both things fit.

Duncan: 14:43

Yep.

Bryan: 14:44

But the needs of the forces are the the top consideration for sure.

Duncan: 14:47

Yeah. It is.

Bryan: 14:48

How did you feel when you found out you're going Sea Kings? Was that something that you wanted?

Duncan: 14:52

I asked for Hertz. I wanted to fly Hertz. That was my my big dream. But, I wasn't terribly disappointed when I was given the Seekings because, of course, you have to learn new aircraft. And, like I said, I just wanted to fly.

Duncan: 15:10

It didn't matter what it was. That's fine.

Bryan: 15:12

I mean, that's the best attitude you can go into selection with in any case.

Duncan: 15:16

That's right.

Bryan: 15:16

You know, there I've always said there's no bad cockpit in the RCAF. True. All of the aircraft have their their positives and their minuses, and they're all pretty cool jobs when it comes down to it. So as long as you can go in with a positive attitude, you're probably gonna have a great time.

Duncan: 15:31

Yeah. I think we clarified this

Bryan: 15:34

a little bit earlier, but you got your wings on the tutor course. Right?

Duncan: 15:38

Correct. Yeah. I think at the at the time, we were we, I mean, we were a very close course. We knew everybody. And, to have the wings parade in Moose Jaw altogether, that that was an important part of our training.

Duncan: 15:54

And I know now, they break it off. If you're going, helicopters, then you go to portage, finish, flying there and get your wins awarded in in portage.

Bryan: 16:05

Yeah. That's right. Nowadays, after phase 2, you go to portage for multi and helo. You would go to Moose Jaw to finish your training if you're going fighters. There is some changes coming there for where they're sending people for training right now for fast jet, which I think we're gonna actually talk about in a in a show soon.

Bryan: 16:24

But, yeah, they split them into their kinda 3 streams now, and then you get your wings, and then you go on to your operational aircraft.

Duncan: 16:30

Oh, okay.

Bryan: 16:30

You got your wings on the Tudor, and then you were posted to Sea Kings. Now was there any basic helicopter course before the Sea King?

Duncan: 16:37

Yeah. There was. You would go back to portage or prairie and fly the, the Kiowa, we call it, or or the Jet Ranger, I guess.

Bryan: 16:46

That's a Bell 206. Right?

Duncan: 16:47

Yeah. And, you know, you come from Moose Jaw and you think, oh, brand new pallet, got my wings and you end up on the, jet ranger, you can't do a damn thing with it. You can't even horror. Yeah. But very, very quickly, you'll learn how to, do the right thing.

Bryan: 17:10

The Jet Ranger is still renowned for humbling new students for sure.

Duncan: 17:14

Yeah.

Bryan: 17:15

I've got a lot of buddies who are helicopter instructors here. And, I remember on my multi course, you could watch a new pilot on one of their early flights. Like, we'd be doing our startup checks and things. And you look over at this helicopter, and it's hovering. And it would go it would start wobbling, and it would wobble more and more and more.

Bryan: 17:33

And then all of a sudden, it would snap and go perfect, and you knew the instructor had taken over.

Duncan: 17:37

A car ride. Yeah. And, you, you air taxi with it. And, you know, with the first couple of times you you try to do that, you'd be, like, say, wobbling all over the place.

Bryan: 17:48

I bet it's a huge challenge.

Duncan: 17:49

It's a challenge, and your instructor takes you out to an open field, and you're roaming around the field quite a bit. And then he puts you in front of a tree, and you go every which way you, of I'll I'll left and right and back, but you won't go forward. So then he puts a tree puts you in between 2 trees. You go forward and back, but you won't go to the side.

Bryan: 18:12

I imagine that's a powerful motivator.

Duncan: 18:14

Yeah. That's powerful motivator. And before you know what you're doing, find areas, which is basically landing or going into a hover inside a, an area that's thrown up by trees.

Bryan: 18:26

So what would you say was the biggest challenge on that course?

Duncan: 18:30

The on that course, you know, when a helicopter is flying, it's like an airplane.

Bryan: 18:36

Okay.

Duncan: 18:36

But hovering is a different story. So very quickly, you'll learn that, you don't wanna be ham fisted. It just takes a very, very light touch to, use the controls, whether it be on the on the road pedals or the collective are are cyclic, and, our light touches work best.

Bryan: 18:56

Yeah. That makes sense. What was the coolest thing you did on that course?

Duncan: 19:00

The off levels, very challenging. When you land a helicopter, and you're on the basically on the side of a hill kind of, thing. So what you do is you put the the top skid down first, and then you very slowly lower the other skid. And that's the same problem. You're keeping even though the helicopter itself is on an angle, you wanna keep your rotor

Bryan: 19:25

straight. That sounds like it's really challenging.

Duncan: 19:27

Very. Very much so. And then, of course, the other challenge the other challenge is when you have an engine failure or a simulated engine failure, then, of course, you have to autorotate. So, we spend a lot of time out on Grabber Green, which I assume is still there.

Bryan: 19:43

Grabber Green? Yep. Yep. Grabber Green is still a training area there.

Duncan: 19:47

Yep. Well, you do your auto rotations. So you just spent a lot of time out there.

Bryan: 19:52

Can you explain an auto rotation for the, audience?

Duncan: 19:55

An auto rotation? Basically you're using the the airspeed you have and the height you have keeping the the rotor going because normally the engine is keeping it going, of course. You've now lost your engine. So you're ascending down at a fairly good rate, and you're pulling collective at the very end. You know, level the aircraft and do your landing.

Duncan: 20:18

And if you do it right, you can walk away from it. If you don't do it right, then, well, you might walk away, but the aircraft is, is not going to.

Bryan: 20:28

So because I actually have never fully understood an auto rotation myself. Do you have to have forward momentum going? Like, what happens if you're in a hover and that happens?

Duncan: 20:37

If you're in a hover, we're practicing with seeking all the time because you spend a lot of time, in the hover. And, generally, you're no more than 40 feet, so you have enough inertia in the rotor to, make safe landing. Okay.

Bryan: 20:56

That's interesting. And, yeah, that would be huge for the Sea King, especially when you're what what they call in the dip. Right?

Duncan: 21:02

Yeah. And, the the higher you go, you're actually going into the red area. And, with a heavier helicopter, you can get what you call, basically, the the it'll disturb air flying going through your rotor. And, unless you get some forward speed on, you gotta break that, disturbed air.

Bryan: 21:23

What's that phenomenon called again?

Duncan: 21:25

Yeah. Rotor settling. There's 2 different terms for it. Rotor settling, and there's another one that escapes you right now what the what the term is. Okay.

Duncan: 21:32

Yeah. We'll probably

Bryan: 21:34

get into dipping and all that stuff as we discussed the Seaking. Right?

Duncan: 21:36

Yep.

Bryan: 21:37

Okay. So speaking of which, let's talk about your seeking years and your maritime operations. Your first operational posting was the 443 maritime helicopter squadron flying Seakings. Can you describe the experience of flying these helicopters?

Duncan: 21:52

Well, when you first go out and, you're gonna land on a ship, the deck looks very small. Yeah. So it's a very big airplane, on a very small deck. And it doesn't look like you have a lot of room between yourself and the hangar face, but, it's about 8 feet actually between you, the chip of your order blades and the and the hangar. So you do have lots of room, but, again, it, kinda goes back to, your basic training in Portage where you'll go to the side a little bit, but you won't go forward.

Bryan: 22:29

That's funny. I think only a helicopter pilot could call 8 feet of clearance, lots of room. That must have been something because even even by that point in the seventies, the Sea King had been around for quite some time. Right?

Duncan: 22:42

Yes. It had been.

Bryan: 22:43

Yeah. By the time I joined the air force, the Sea King was quite old and had a bit of a reputation for being a bit of a a maintenance pig. Did it have that reputation yet in the seventies?

Duncan: 22:53

Well, we we had a number of problems, with the, the cracks. They seemed to travel from the sponsons up to the transmission mounts. The rotor head is solved. So there was a lot of NDT ing, nondestructive testing going on. In other words, they were taking x rays of various parts to make sure that you didn't there were no cracks in any kinda serious location.

Duncan: 23:22

So that was one of the problems we had. The other one was, I don't know whether you're familiar with transitional lift. As you enter the hover, and the aircraft slows down, your, your disc, your rotor is no longer basically a flying wing, but it's actually doing all of the lift. So it requires a bit more power when you enter the hover, especially if you're hovering around 40 feet out of, ground effect or water effect if you're hovering over water. And, there's quite a wide vibration when you go through that, period of translation left, which is around 30 or 40 knots.

Duncan: 24:07

And, in seeking, the, instrumentation is is is, mounted on rubber, but it vibrates, so much at yeah. For a while, you can't see it.

Bryan: 24:18

Oh, well.

Duncan: 24:18

Daytime is not a problem. At night at night, it can be a challenge. And, especially, with helicopters, if things don't work the way that it was supposed to, the helicopter tends to back down. And, one thing I didn't wanna be doing is backing it up. So, there was a a period that there was no night dipping probably for about 3 or 4 months until we had, a better, a raddol and a better dobbler system installed.

Duncan: 24:50

So, after that, we basically went back to knife flying once the new equipment was installed.

Bryan: 24:57

Okay. And that makes sense. I I just wanna explain a couple of things for the audience. So Rattle being a radar altimeter that shows you your actual height above the ground or water. Yep.

Bryan: 25:08

And then can you explain what the dip is? Because we've mentioned that a couple times now.

Duncan: 25:12

Okay. So the, Sea King, was an 80 submarine aircraft, and it had what you call basically a a cylinder ball. We called it a cylinder ball, but it was a a transducer probably about, it weighed a couple 100 pounds, and it could be lowered down into the water down to 450 feet, which is quite quite, far down. First thing you would do is do a what we call a, a thermograph. Basically, it's the temperature of the water.

Duncan: 25:44

And, you understand that as an airplane climbs up on the air, the temperature drops. And that's the same thing with the water. The further down you go, the colder it gets, but it's not always the case. And sometimes those are the we call a layer, a thermal layer, where the temperature actually increases for 5 or 10 degrees. That's where a submarine would like to hide.

Duncan: 26:08

We want to hide either in that boundary layer or just below it. And, so you'd like to know the temperature of the water. You wanna know where the thermals are. If you're hunting for a submarine, you wanna know where you might be hiding at. So going into the hover, once you're in there, you lower your ball, lower the sonar transducer, and run down, and then use your, sonar operator will know which, depths to put the ball at for the best, best sounding.

Duncan: 26:39

Now once it's a transducer does, it send our electronic signal. And if there's something, metallic, that signal will bounce off it and return back to the helicopter. And that that tells you where the submarine is. And and, of course, you get into Doppler, Don Doppler, and all of that, which you'd be filling them with, from the Aurora.

Bryan: 27:00

Yes. Of course. Up and down Doppler, depending on if the sub is moving away or towards, the source of the sonar. Right. And that's the dip in a nutshell.

Duncan: 27:08

Yep. That's, ever if everything goes right. When things go wrong, you have to do what I'm calling a free shrink, which is basically taking the helicopter up, as straight as you can until the sonar transfusion clears the water. And, then you can put on forward speed, and, what you do is you get the helicopter stabilized and slow it down just so the cable is off the, what we call the left of the, solar transducer space, and then you can raise it. And, it comes up at high speed.

Duncan: 27:44

And then just before it gets through the helicopter, it slows down, and you can leave either leave it at the trail or which is hanging beneath the helicopter, or you bring it in to the, sit it inside the position.

Bryan: 28:00

And that's for an emergency. Right?

Duncan: 28:01

That's correct. Yeah.

Bryan: 28:03

Yeah. And I remember even on the Aurora, we would be trained for that because we won't obviously go into code words and things. But there if that happens, you warn the aircraft around, and those aircraft know to climb to get out of your way and to to be out of the length of that of that cable, essentially.

Duncan: 28:18

That's right. Yep.

Bryan: 28:19

And, speaking of code words, for anyone who's worrying about operational security, obviously, we are staying out of that world. And, any kind of thing we're talking about, for example, thermal layers and where submarines hide, you can find on Wikipedia. So Yes. Don't worry for those who are hearing this and worrying about that. We're we're keeping our our noses clean.

Bryan: 28:41

We've gotten a little bit into this, but, what kind of missions did you conduct on the Sea King, and what did those involve?

Duncan: 28:47

Well, as I mentioned, the, the Sea King was a United Submarine aircraft. So, normally, whether it be a a an east flank or a NATO mission, you'd be normally assigned to be at the front or behind the fleet, looking for any submarines that, that shouldn't be there. You can also be, tasked to do slanging because, the seeking could do slanging operations. And I remember one time, we were in the Mediterranean, and, it seemed like there were helicopters everywhere of, many different types and varieties doing slinging operations. Can you explain what slinging is?

Duncan: 29:28

Oh, slinging is carrying a load beneath the, air under the helicopter. So and, you would do this to resupply the ship. So, you were, fly over to the, supply ship and pick up a, a pilot, load underneath a helicopter, bring it over to your ship, and, put it on the flight deck.

Bryan: 29:52

But I think you were saying something about there was helicopters everywhere and

Duncan: 29:55

Yes. There were, but the controller there were, 2 or 3 different controllers, and they they would assign each helicopter, basically a route, out through it and and out through it and direction to fly in. And, they were really way it was really a ball court in. Yeah. And, even though the sky looked like it was almost overcast and helicopters, that's why there was it was really well coordinated, and, everybody say in the wrong corridor.

Bryan: 30:26

Yeah. That's an interesting thing. The first time or maybe not the first time, but when you are in congested airspace and everything's being tightly coordinated, but there's just aircraft everywhere, For me, it would be being in a stack over a target in the Middle East, for example, and there's just layers and layers and layers of aircraft. It's, pretty awe inspiring the first time you see that.

Duncan: 30:49

It is. Yeah.

Bryan: 30:50

So you guys did anti submarine warfare. You did slung loads. Anything else on the Sea King?

Duncan: 30:56

Personnel transfer, of course. But, it was pretty easy. You would, you fly to a either land base somewhere and, either exchange people or go to another ship and bring people over to your ship kind of thing. That's pretty much the type of task you can go get.

Bryan: 31:14

Did you guys do any search and rescue?

Duncan: 31:16

Yeah. We were we could very easily be ended up with a ship while searching for somebody. And, as it turns out, coming back one time to Halifax, we, had a missing, a member of the crew of the ship.

Bryan: 31:33

Oh, no.

Duncan: 31:34

So we were assigned to go ahead and and try to find him, but it was probably a couple hours after, he had gone missing. The odds of finding, would be very slim because, you think about somebody in law even with a life jacket on, there's maybe less than a third of a life jacket and ahead above water. Yep. That's, really not a lot to see, if there's any kind of sea state. In other words, if the, wave action is is fairly high.

Duncan: 32:04

We've run exercises where we've taken a barrel and taped it up like a plastic jug kind of thing and taped it up with a make it radioactive and thrown it out and flown away from it and then coming back. You don't see anything until you're almost on top of

Bryan: 32:23

it. Yeah. I can attest to that. We would sometimes, use the little, float at the top of a sonobu. Yep.

Bryan: 32:31

Because it's an orange little orange triangle, basically. And, if the if the ocean is not calm, you're not gonna see it until, like you said, you're on top of it, and then you need to be lucky to look in exactly the right place. It's very challenging.

Duncan: 32:45

Exactly. Yeah. A life raft is a different story. It's bigger, and, generally, life rafts would have some kind of radar reflector Mhmm. That, your radar operator could pick up.

Bryan: 32:56

Yep. For sure. So you served on HMCS Huron, Saginay, and Annapolis. What are some of the unique experiences of living onboard a ship, and what would you say was the hardest part?

Duncan: 33:09

Well, when you live aboard ship, you're, in very close quarters with, other people. You're lucky as an officer because you you share a cabin with one other officer. There are other messes on the on the ship that are much more cramped, so there isn't a lot of extra room. So that's one of the hardships you have. When you, first go out on an appointment, the food is pretty good.

Duncan: 33:38

But, the longer you're at sea, the, food starts to degrade, base that's based lay on storage. And, but the hardest part, of course, is we is being away. I I find it very difficult being away from the family for 3 4 months at a time. Mhmm. And I know that some of the ships now, when I see them leaving Halifax, it stirs up old feelings, and, they're gone for 6 months, 7 months at a time.

Duncan: 34:06

That's a that's a long deployment.

Bryan: 34:09

Yeah. I I can only imagine. My deployments were 4 3 months, and Yeah. I found that very challenging. It is definitely the hardest part.

Duncan: 34:17

Back in the day, and I'm gonna say that a few times probably.

Bryan: 34:21

We can we can forgive you

Duncan: 34:22

for that. The only only communication you had was, if you're lucky, you would go ashore and use the phone, and then there was an overseas call, which could be very expensive. So, really, the only communication you had were letters, and, everybody anticipated mail day when you got a letter from home.

Bryan: 34:42

So how did that work getting mail? Would it be basically they know you're gonna stop in such and such a port and and so they send it ahead to there? Exactly. Yeah. And I think I've heard before that the seeking sometimes acted as as the mail delivery, system, which I imagine made you guys pretty popular.

Duncan: 34:59

Yes. That's true. Everybody looked forward to the letter home.

Bryan: 35:03

Yeah. Oh, I I bet. You mentioned the food getting worse over time. Is that just because basically there's fresh food at first and then slowly you're into store like, canned and preserved food and things like that?

Duncan: 35:14

Yeah. That's correct. And when you went into our port of call, that was one of the things. You know, you go resupply chip and then there'll be fresh food again for another while before you, ran out again.

Bryan: 35:27

Before you're back to canned tuna or whatever?

Duncan: 35:30

Yeah. Exactly. Can you tell us about some

Bryan: 35:33

of your more memorable experiences on the Sea King?

Duncan: 35:36

Yeah. I think, probably one of them is, like I say, the medical evacuation that I did. There was an injured crewman aboard the ship, which we had to get to a hospital fairly quickly. And, we had flown from our ship over to the supply ship over who had a doctor on board. And the doctor looked at him and said, there's there's nothing I can do from here.

Duncan: 36:01

He needs a hospital. So we were on our way to, Veracruz, New Mexico. And, at the time, we were fairly close to the Yucatan Peninsula. And, as you know, any aircraft that can carry a weapon, whether it be the Aurora or Sea King, requires, from a non NATO NATO country to have a difficult clearance. So, they said, don't worry about your diplomatic clearance.

Bryan: 36:31

And that's a dip that's a diplomatic clearance.

Duncan: 36:33

Diplomatic clearance. Sorry. They said, don't worry about that. We'll get that from, Mexico City, and, you just file that guy to a hospital and get him in there, which we did. And, when we landed the, the hours of waiting for us, which was good, the patient went to the hospital.

Duncan: 36:50

And, I said, well, when we're waiting for our our doctor to come back. I'll I'll send the crew in, and you guys go in and get something, you know, to drink or eat or whatever. I had to say I'm bored because the seeking, although you could do a battery start, in the hot weather, you didn't wanna do that because quite often, you would get the thermal runaway. So I was, shut down the head and leave number 1 engine running because it could operate in the, what you call accessory mode. Okay.

Duncan: 37:26

It provides you some electricity. But what, once you shut down the head, you're no longer, cooling the transmission oil. So you had to keep an eye on a or transformational oil temperature. And if if required, you would start number 2 and blow on the head for a while and make sure that the the oil didn't heat up. Anyway, they were gone for about, 10 minutes.

Duncan: 37:48

And all of a sudden, a memory truck pulled up and a bunch of guys with weapons jumped out and ran into the airport. And I said, uh-oh. I hope they're not after my So, very soon afterwards, they came out looking very sheepishly, and, I said, I wouldn't know if you were after somebody else. So, anyway, our guy came back from the hospital, jumped on board, and they said, they're alert. They're gonna keep him in there, and they'll meet him back into back to Halifax in a few days' time.

Duncan: 38:22

So we left. And it's a good thing we did because, they flew a a Challenger down a couple of days later to, retrieve it. But, the local, area commander was, head of knowledge of the joint that we didn't have a diplomatic clearance. So he actually impounded the medevac aircraft for a little while until No. They oh, yeah.

Duncan: 38:46

Until until I finally got the ball straightened out. So it was interesting.

Bryan: 38:51

Yeah. Yeah. It's that's interesting to me because normally for an emergency involving, you know, saving someone's life, all bets are off.

Duncan: 39:00

Yeah. Exactly.

Bryan: 39:01

Right? Like, if there's an if there's an emergency, who cares about diplomatic clearance? Yes.

Duncan: 39:05

Exactly. Yeah. And that that's how the ship felt. That's how we felt. But, apparently, the, Mexican commander fought differently.

Bryan: 39:14

Oh, well. That's his problem, I guess.

Duncan: 39:16

Exactly. Yep.

Bryan: 39:18

So what challenges were associated with operating the Sea King?

Duncan: 39:22

Well, like I said, the big the big thing was, was, doing, the night dipping. When I was on 406, we I had a a pilot who, had phone drivers. But as his eyesight deteriorated, they decided that he had to fly an aircraft with a a multi cockpit aircraft. So, he decided he would fly safely, and I took him out for night dipping. And I just remember looking across at him, and, he looked back at me with very wide eyes and said, what the hell are we doing here?

Duncan: 40:00

So, I don't think he was terribly impressed with the diving part, of course. And, it wasn't too long after that, he left the military and, went flying with the resources of Canada.

Bryan: 40:15

Okay. Yeah. I have very little time in helicopters at all and only sitting in the back and certainly never at night in a dip, but I know the first time I flew low level at night in an exercise in the Aurora, and there were ships around. I knew there were helicopters below us and not very far below us, and it's dark out and there's no moon. It can be pretty uncomfortable.

Bryan: 40:36

So I can only imagine being in the dip at, what is it, 40 feet? At 40 feet. Yeah. That's crazy.

Duncan: 40:43

And, you know, out on a calm night with a full moon, that's no no, no real challenge. But like you said, when it's very, very dark and, there's no reference to tall, you can throw a flare out, which can be helpful at times, but it can also be disorienting. Because as you know, when staring at, one one light at night, it can throw you off of it.

Bryan: 41:07

So Well, you can fixate on it, and then you can get various optical illusions and things. Right?

Duncan: 41:11

Exactly. Yeah.

Bryan: 41:13

Yeah. I think I'd find that very uncomfortable, and I'm not shocked that a fighter pilot did as well.

Duncan: 41:18

Yeah. It's kinda funny because, you know, you get used to it and you you don't think a lot about it. But, somebody who hasn't done it before, it it can be a challenge.

Bryan: 41:29

Oh, yeah. So I'd like to talk a little bit now about Remembrance Day and what it means to you. During your training, you experienced the tragic loss of your former roommate, Robert Hanson, and his instructor in a crash. I'll read Robert's citation now. The Star of Courage was awarded to officer cadet Robert Hanson and captain Gary Fulton who gave their lives on 31st May 1976.

Bryan: 41:52

Shortly after takeoff from runway 12 at Regina Airport, a wild duck was ingested resulting in immediate engine failure. Rather than abandon their crippled jet aircraft over a populated area, the crew elected to divert it away from the city, thus sacrificing vital seconds in altitude. Both officers were fatally injured when insufficient altitude remained for a safe ejection. Robert Hanson, s c, 1956 to 1976. Robert served with 2 20 Red River Winnipeg Squadron Air Cadets.

Bryan: 42:22

In 1972, he was the top graduate from the 3 prairie provinces on the junior NCO course, was selected the most proficient squadron NCO in 1972 to 73, completing flying scholarship training in 1973, and received Manitoba's highest gliding award for glider pilot graduates in 1974. He was a squadron warrant officer prying to enroll in the air arm of the Canadian Forces in October 1974. So can you discuss the impact this event had on you and what you learned from it?

Duncan: 42:51

Yeah. Yeah. I remember that day like it was yesterday. At first, we heard of it was on the news, of course, and I was driving into work and and I heard, let's say, yeah, the crash had occurred. Bob was my roommate up until I come home at Christmas time to get married, which was, which was fortunate because I think it had we, remained roommates, I would have been much more deeply affected by the loss of his life.

Duncan: 43:23

I know that the person who became his roommate after, I get married, he didn't did not finish the course. He didn't finish the pilot course. So, I've often thought that, you know, that that could have been me depending on, on how things had progressed. But, certainly, what they did was turning away from the populated area. They knew what they were doing.

Duncan: 43:54

They know exactly, turning themselves and putting themselves outside the envelope of the ejection seat made them unlikely to have a successful ejection. So they knew exactly what they were doing, and, it's just part of the job. When you are talking about a veteran, you are talking about someone who would sign a blank check. And whether that check gets cashed or not, it's, quite often, depends on what kind of situation you're in this time. One of the, things that we talked about earlier about, being a pilot and what what you have to do is make decisions very rapidly sometimes based on circumstances, and they did.

Duncan: 44:43

They made that decision, and it cost them lives. But how many lives did they save? Probably a lot.

Bryan: 44:51

Mhmm. How does this event shape the way you view Remembrance Day now?

Duncan: 44:57

Well, in Remembrance Day now, I certainly think about all of those who have sacrificed so so much. Like I said, sometimes you sign that blank check, and sometimes it's, filled out, and it can be up to and including your life. And, certainly, those who have, injuries because of wearing the uniform, whether they've, sacrificed our life or sacrificed our families or their own well-being, They've done it for others, and, we always have to think of that.

Bryan: 45:33

Mhmm. Yep. It's, that's just you know, it's something that was said to me when I was on my glider pilot's course that if you stay in aviation long enough, you will lose friends.

Duncan: 45:45

Yep.

Bryan: 45:46

And certainly, in military aviation, there's a just by the nature of what we're doing, whether it be in combat or the intense training, and you're always pushing the envelope. It's it's a risky business. And there are there are risks, and and every now and then, there's a tragedy in aviation. And, as it Remembrance Day approaches, it's that time of year where you can reflect on that and think of those people that you lost and that you miss and and that their sacrifice, what it was for Canada.

Duncan: 46:14

Yep. That's true.

Bryan: 46:16

It's obvious that remembrance day is meaningful to you. You're an active member of the Legion where you served as a service officer for 5 years, and you're currently on the Poppy Committee as the head trustee. Why do you feel remembrance day is still an important day in Canada?

Duncan: 46:30

Is it important to remember those that made their ultimate sacrifice, whether it be their loss of life in World War 1, World War 2, Korea, Afghanistan. There are a number of places now that Canada has been involved in. A lot of Canadians don't know about, one of the situations that that is, I think of is the sub made out pocket. When you mention that to people, they don't know what that is really unless you've done some reading on it. It was one of until Afghanistan, probably one of the largest firefights that Canadian soldiers were ever involved in

Bryan: 47:15

Mhmm.

Duncan: 47:16

Since the Korean War. So it's very important that we do remember those that sacrifice so much. And, certainly, as a service officer in in the legion, I knew that veterans would very often be reluctant to put in any kind of claim, and I was I I would always counsel to, you know, if you think your injury or your, what you're dealing with is, really directly related to your service, then put in a kind of veteran affairs and, let them decide.

Bryan: 47:57

Okay. That's gonna wrap up part 1 of our discussion with Duncan about his career and Remembrance Day. Tune in to part 2 where we'll hear about his time on the Tracker and the Aurora as well as his transition to civilian life and his involvement with the veteran community. This week, we'd like to not only thank you for tuning in to listen to this show and hear about this veteran's life, we'd also like to encourage you to go to your local Remembrance Day ceremony on November 11th. It only takes an hour, and it's worth the time to remember.

Bryan: 48:25

We'd also like to take the opportunity to thank our veterans and brothers and sisters both in and out of uniform for their service. Thank you for your service, and stay safe. Do you have any questions or comments about something you've heard on the show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest on the show? Or do you have a great idea for an episode?

Bryan: 48:42

You can reach out to us at the pilot project podcast atgmail.com or on all social media at atpodpilotproject. While we're on that topic, did you know that we release several videos a week on our social media accounts? Once again, you can find those at atpodpilotproject on all social media platforms. Before we part, we'd like to ask you for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us 5 stars wherever you get your podcasts.

Bryan: 49:09

That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up.