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Bryan: 00:58

Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Skies Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is Pascal Duclaud, an aerial firefighting pilot with Servies Aerienne Gubermantel du Quebec. Pascal, welcome to the show.

Bryan: 01:16

I've got a feeling this is going to be a super interesting conversation, so let's dive right in. So today, we will be talking about Pascal's career and flight training, and we will be especially focusing on his time conducting firefighting operations in the recent fires in the Los Angeles area. But before we jump into any of that, let's go through Pascal's bio. Passionate about aviation and driven by the desire to fight wildfires in Quebec, Pascal began his aviation career in 1998. To gain the necessary experience, he worked for several Bush aviation companies across Canada honing his skills and developing valuable expertise in the field.

Bryan: 01:51

In 02/2006, he completed his instrument flight training at the Centre de Formation aeronautique du Quebec. This certification allowed him to enter the charter flight sector where he operated flights across Canada and The United States. His ultimate goal became a reality in 02/2010 when he joined the government air service. For eight seasons, he served as a tanker pilot playing a crucial role in protecting Quebec's forests from wildfires. His dedication and experience then led him to join the training team.

Bryan: 02:19

And by the end of 02/2022, he was promoted to chief pilot of the air tanker fleet. His career has given him the opportunity to experience significant moments, including the twenty twenty three wildfire season, '1 of the most intense in Quebec's history, as well as the historic fires that ravaged Los Angeles County last winter. These events highlight the immense challenges faced by the aviation sector in wildfire suppression. With this extensive experience, he continues his mission with passion and commitment contributing to the training of new generations of pilots and the protection of our forests. So, Pascal, what started you down the path of chasing aviation as a career?

Bryan: 02:55

Where did it all start for you?

Pascal: 02:56

Yeah. I was, interested in the high school to, become a pilot. And, they told me I will not be able to be a pilot because I wasn't speaking english at this time so, I tried to do something else. So I joined the reserve, army for a few years and I jumped to the regular army for, about six months or so. And when I decided to quit, I was driving down on the highway and listening to the radio, I heard, like, become a pilot and do a flight, just a one hour flight, something like that, just to overview of a pilot.

Pascal: 03:37

And, that's where I started my, career after that flight.

Bryan: 03:40

Really? So how did you go about learning English then to make sure you could be a pilot?

Pascal: 03:46

Yeah. That's, that become, after, I start the the training as a, like, private pilot and everything in the private school. So that was in in process of my career because in Quebec, you don't really need to speak English to be a pilot. So but I since I have nobody in my family who was a pilot, I didn't have any expertise on that, so, I didn't know they have a private school where you can be a pilot. So, that that that was my, my process to to be a pilot anyway.

Bryan: 04:17

Okay. So what inspired you to make aerial firefighting your ultimate goal?

Pascal: 04:23

When I started my private license in the Airport Of Quebec, every time I was taxiing to the, Runway 24, I was passing in front of the, C L 415. That's where the service area in Grand Martel is, the parking is. And so every time I was passing in front of those planes, was watching the plane and said, oh, one day I'm gonna fly those planes. And my instructor was laughing at that time but I guess that was normal because lots of people thinking about or dreaming about flying those planes.

Bryan: 04:54

Does your instructor know that you do it now?

Pascal: 04:57

Yeah.

Bryan: 05:00

So we're used to discussing the military flight training system on this show. Can you tell us briefly about the training you underwent from getting your PPL or private pilot license to being qualified to fight fires? What ratings are required to be a firefighting pilot?

Pascal: 05:14

Yeah. I have done my, private pretty fast in the, when I just started in the winter, so around 1998, and after that I just done all of my hours to get to the commercial flight test in the school and do the writing exam as well, but for the rest of the hour, instead of doing my twin rating, I went to the company to do my float plane rating. So I was about to do around fifty hours, maybe forty five-fifty hours of flying on floats before getting my commercial license, which is two hundred hours. And after that I just get a job, I hang around in the company helping pilot there and I'm loading and unloading the plane and when the owner had a chance, he just offered me a job. And around in July, that was my start of a commercial flying.

Pascal: 06:08

I was on the EVA for float charter tourist sightseeing, something like that. And I stayed there for a few years, maybe three years, two years, and they had a crash. So they shut down the company for a year. So I moved on the Manitoba. So that's that's come the answer to your question of why I why I learned my English.

Pascal: 06:29

I got a call from one of my friend. Guys was looking for a pilot in Manitoba. They are hiring me, and I was talking about the with them and say, I don't have the English level to to work with you. And they said, no. No problem.

Pascal: 06:43

Everybody speak French, and they're gonna teach you and everything. But when I get there, nobody was speaking French. So I I had to learn English the hard way. And after that summer, I came back and then the same company, they restarted the operation. So I I with a little bit more experience, ventilation, everything.

Pascal: 07:03

So they they offered me a beaver drop, DHC two.

Bryan: 07:07

Sorry. That was on the De Havilland Beaver?

Pascal: 07:09

Yeah. De Havilland Beaver. Yeah.

Bryan: 07:11

Oh, that's a classic bush plane.

Pascal: 07:12

Yeah. Yeah. Pretty classic. Yeah. So I spent another I worked around seven years, six seven, eight years on the this company.

Pascal: 07:21

I was in Lechuk in Quebec. So and after that, I get my IFR, twin IFR rating, get up pretty fast in the same company and I found the formation of Analytics in Quebec. So after that I get my IFR twin rating and I jump on the charter company, different small twin fixed wing plane flying around Northern Quebec and East United States, Ontario, Manitoba, charter, like King Air and Navarro or something like that. And after that, I got the interview and service and Grand Martell and I got a job in 02/2010. So that was the ultimate goal.

Bryan: 08:05

Well, let me see if I can remember all that. You needed to get your commercial, your multi engine, your IFR rating. And did you need a float rating as well to get that job?

Pascal: 08:14

Of course. Of course. We need the float rating to get a Yeah. C l four fifteen. Yeah.

Pascal: 08:18

Because it's amphibious airplane.

Bryan: 08:20

So Yes. Okay. Well, that's a lot of ratings to have to collect on your own out there.

Pascal: 08:26

Yeah. To me, it took, like, ten years. At this time, the we have to had, fifteen hours on float before, have, I think, the possibility to, just apply on the, CL four fifteen pilot job. Today, we cut down that requirement to 500. So that's make people can apply much sooner than it was before.

Bryan: 08:49

It was fifteen hundred and now it's just down to five hundred?

Pascal: 08:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan: 08:54

Okay. Interesting. Can I ask why that is?

Pascal: 08:57

Because we are in a shortage of pilot, of course, the all all around the world. So with the, lack of people experience on float, we had to find a solution to find people, and, so we we had more training on the new pilot. So we were able to get lower on the experience.

Bryan: 09:19

Okay.

Pascal: 09:20

That's the way we try to find people because we still have 25% less people than what we need.

Bryan: 09:27

Oh wow. Yeah. I mean that's pretty much the story in every aviation company, right? I mean, same with the air force. I imagine it's pretty common across the whole spectrum of aviation right now.

Pascal: 09:37

It is. It is the same same story on every company for sure.

Bryan: 09:42

So when you arrived at the government air service, did you feel prepared by your previous experience in training?

Pascal: 09:47

I would say yes and no because I was prepared to fly the plane, let's say, normal condition because what you're doing is charter, right? If you go to the bush cabin dropping people and taking people out stuff like plywood and everything, canoe, four wheelers, know, ATV, something like that, you're prepared to do charter and everything, so land, drop, take something, and go back to the base. So same thing on the twin IR charter company. But when you arrive on the aerial firefighting, it's a little bit different. So the condition is different, you do multiple takeoff and landing in the same day, that can go over 100 in a day, so it's really hard on the physical and mental to stay efficient on takeoff and landing you know and everything so when you start it's pretty hard and my first mission after my initial training was on the Saint Lawrence River so we had little bit swell and so the captain started all the scoop and everything, the drop and everything, which is normal, and when they gave me the control to scoop was really terrible.

Pascal: 11:03

When I finished this this mission, I was I was thinking I will not be able to scope anymore. Yeah. So it was really difficult for me. Anyway, after after that mission, we we had another mission the day after, and we spent eight hours on the other mission. It was more than just one or two scoop.

Pascal: 11:23

So I had time to acclimate and, you know, get the feeling of the plane because when you jump on a mission, you have lots of simulator hours. But on a real plane, there was, I would say, five or between five and ten hours flying maximum.

Bryan: 11:41

Okay.

Pascal: 11:42

So when you jump on a scoop and a swell and everything was was not you don't have any training on the swell before you get in because in Quebec, it's not really often you go on the swell. Yep. So it was really difficult. Yeah. So, anyway, after after the second day, we get back to the base, and I was, oh, that was a good day.

Pascal: 11:59

That was that was I was right on the spot and I was excited about the mission. So that's why you said yes and no. So it depends on what you're doing and you cannot be prepared to do, I don't know, 75 drop in the four hour mission on the smoke of your own and you have a mountainous region. You never know what was going to be your first mission so it's going to be hard. We have some people who had their first mission in the Los Angeles contract, they didn't have any fire in the summer here, they just have training all the summer long so it can be really different.

Pascal: 12:34

You can do your first mission on the Mentobo which is pretty flat, there's no really mountain over there but the lake are pretty shallow, You can have the first fire in the British Columbia, which is really a mountainous region, so it would be pretty rough for for the first fire mission.

Bryan: 12:54

Yeah. It's interesting. I knew you guys were doing operations in California and Quebec. I didn't realize that it was Canada wide essentially that you're operating in.

Pascal: 13:03

Yeah. Yeah. We are operating all Canada wide from Goose Bay to Vancouver. Just just just depend on demand.

Bryan: 13:12

Okay. And I guess just quickly for the audience, when you say scooping, we'll get into this a little more when we talk about the aircraft, but that's basically their scoops in the bottom of the aircraft to scoop up water as you as you go along the water. Right?

Pascal: 13:26

Yeah. Of course. Yeah. We on the FCL four fifteen, you have two scoop or fill two tanks. The two tanks are split in in two.

Pascal: 13:36

So you have one tank splitting with baffle in in in middle. So the four fifteen come with basically four tanks, but it's two tanks with baffle in the middle of the transverse tank. And you have two scoop, maybe 10 centimeters by 15 square. So we cannot have any fish and they have baffled in there as well, cannot scoop fish, cannot scoop a diver or something like that, just like legend for some puppy toll somewhere. So yeah, we just put the scoop down.

Pascal: 14:13

So that's where it come from. The name of scooping, scooping water. Okay.

Bryan: 14:18

And just out of curiosity, are those tanks divided so that you can drop in like quarter, like do a, you can do four separate drops if you need to?

Pascal: 14:27

Yeah. We can do four separate drop. We have timer on the computer, we can set up a timer, we can do two at a time. So there's multiple way to use it. But mainly we use it at four in the same time.

Pascal: 14:39

Sometimes you can do a small delay in each lane with the auto four, that's the way we call it, auto four, so automatic four doors with a small timer in between each door. This more mainly for the crash fires, something like that. Sometimes you have to do a longer line. So it's gonna be more straight line than a less wide so you can can do a longer line.

Bryan: 15:05

Okay. What specific training did you receive as a new pilot joining the aerial firefighting team?

Pascal: 15:12

It start with the in class training. So in beginning, you you start to learn all the, like, every other planes, you start to learn all of the limitation of the plane, the system, and everything on the class. And after that, you jump on all the normal training class you have to do for every other company, like high altitude, the oxygen, and everything. You have to do all the same training. And after that, we jump on the training, so that's where it starts to split from, let's say, the airline training.

Pascal: 15:46

Of course, they do training on simulator but they mainly do IFR training and emergency. We do IFR training, emergency, and we do also scooping and fire mission training in the simulator. And we, for the new pilot, took around twenty, twenty five hours on the simulator instead of five or six hour, I think, if I remember well on the airline for initial. So let's say the double of flight simulator training in the scooper. We're gonna go through all the emergency and the QRH, so it took time but after that the candidate is really ready to go on the plane.

Pascal: 16:30

So because we finished the training on the plane. Just like I said, we don't have the full flight simulators, so we have to do a training flight. So after that, we do two, three flights with the guys, the candidate, and we do the PPC.

Bryan: 16:44

What's a PPC?

Pascal: 16:46

It's a pilot proficiency check.

Bryan: 16:48

Okay.

Pascal: 16:49

So it's a check check ride, basically check ride, to comply with the Transport Canada regulation. And after that, we do our line check. That's what they call in the airline, the line check. It's a FAR mission with one of our check pilots, our trainer pilot. So we do a FAR mission that can be simulated or a real one.

Pascal: 17:12

We try to do real one because it's gonna have small environmental and other traffic, everything so when we go on a far, small airport is gonna be in place. Have guys on top of us, we have a helco top of us managing the traffic and everything. So just to make sure the guys understand all the the movement and the situation awareness around that so before putting the new guys with a a captain on the line. Right. We try to do our best too.

Pascal: 17:43

So and after that fire, the guys is if he understands all the thing, we release the guys on the on the line, and that's that's the whole process for the new guy.

Bryan: 17:55

Yeah. Wow.

Pascal: 17:56

It took around between one and two months, depending of the Okay. The season and the availability availability and the the weather around.

Bryan: 18:05

So that's a lot to do in one to two months. So that must be, like, a pretty intense couple months.

Pascal: 18:10

It is. It is. Actually.

Bryan: 18:13

Just quickly, you mentioned HELCO. That's a helicopter controller. Right?

Pascal: 18:17

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it stands for helicopter controller. Yeah.

Bryan: 18:20

Okay. And we'll talk more about that in a bit. What is the upgrade process with the Quebec government air service?

Pascal: 18:27

It mainly goes by seniority in Quebec since it's governmental. It took around seven years before you can be upgraded. That Minimum is five hundred hours in the company, that's the requirement for the company, and it goes by simulator with our instructor here, and you're gonna go more deeper in each exercise so just to be prepared to be a captain and not first officer anymore, just to take decision and everything. So it's not really only on the way you do the procedure, read and do, it's more like go deeper in decision making and everything. Because you cannot go in aerial firefighting.

Pascal: 19:16

Since we're scoping out of the lake, we didn't know it's not operating on the runway and everything, so it's gonna change every time you go, and sometimes it changes on the same mission. You go in the same lake and during the four hours the wind change, the smoke change, you have to change the line, sometimes you change from 180 degrees to be on the lake because you cannot scoop on the other side anymore because the fire is too big, it's just gonna create this zone, the water system, let's say.

Bryan: 19:48

Oh, wow.

Pascal: 19:48

So that's why we we go a little bit deeper. After the simulator it's not that long, maybe eight hours, nine hours of simulator outside. And after that, we're gonna go on plane because our simulator is not a level d like for motion, it's just a basic flight simulator. So after that we go on the plane, we do the training it needs to be captain and after that is kind of a we're gonna do the PPC on the left seat to be captain and we're gonna before the release, that's the biggest part, before the release, we fly some of the instructor or me as chief pilot, we fly with the candidate and make sure he can manage the plane on almost every situation, let's say, because of course we cannot do all situations with him, but we're gonna try to do a few hours with him, five hours or five missions, something like that, depend of the candidate and everything. Just to make sure he's he's good enough to manage everything because you never know.

Pascal: 20:54

He can can be posted on a on a mission with the brand new guys, So I'm gonna have to manage the new guys so that the the the can make it. So we have to be sure it's accurate. You know?

Bryan: 21:08

Yeah. It actually sounds a lot like the upgrade process within most fleets in the military. Just like you said, a a bigger focus on decision making, a bigger focus on monitoring junior pilots. As you said, there's a lot more to it than just conducting the mission.

Pascal: 21:24

Yes. Yes.

Bryan: 21:27

So let's get into a bit of a general operations in aerial firefighting. Most listeners likely aren't aware of what aerial firefighting looks like in North America. Can you share with us what a career in aerial firefighting entails? Now we've talked a little bit about how it differs by province, but is it contracted by season or are the pilots employed year round?

Pascal: 21:46

Yeah. Just like we said, province by province, it's it's gonna be different for firefighting with all the terrain and everything, ocean, and and we have a contract as well in The United States. For, the employee of Service Encryment Capital, we are paid year round. So we're doing basically, we're doing three on a recurrent training. It's a three weeks, five days on, two days off, just like a normal schedule.

Pascal: 22:10

And after that, it jumps on the fifteen days on, three days off until almost the September. So that's gonna be almost the end of the season, fire season in Quebec, but we still have fire until November now. We're gonna have thirty days to do in a row after the schedule of it, fifteen days on and three days off. So that's gonna make us all the hours per year as a, like, governmental employee.

Bryan: 22:43

Okay.

Pascal: 22:44

And that that thirty days is mainly used to do the contract outside of Quebec. But some some of our guys are not checked to go outside, so they're gonna do the thirty days in Quebec. So that's gonna complete all the the season. The season begin on the April 1 for the fire response until the November 15 in Quebec.

Bryan: 23:06

Okay. And then after that, you've got your season in California.

Pascal: 23:11

Yeah. In California, the season start over there on September 1, and the initial agreement is a ninety day.

Bryan: 23:19

Okay. What do aerial firefighters do outside of wildfire season?

Pascal: 23:24

Some have other job, during the winter. They kept the older job they have just in part time during the winter.

Bryan: 23:32

Okay.

Pascal: 23:33

But most of the people just enjoying the, winter, let's say, off or holiday, passing time with the family and just try to catch up the time you miss with them in the summer.

Bryan: 23:46

Yeah. I imagine this job has you away from home a lot.

Pascal: 23:50

Yeah. Yeah. We spend around, I don't know, maybe hundred and ten, hundred and twenty days out of a home Wow. With the contract in Los Angeles.

Bryan: 24:01

That's tough.

Pascal: 24:02

Yeah. Yeah. It is tough. Yeah. But it's not just some job are tougher than others, you know.

Pascal: 24:10

If you're talking about the army or something like that, somebody leave for six months in a row, so we're leaving for the biggest stretch we're doing. It's, twenty eight days, thirty days in the, in Los Angeles contracts.

Bryan: 24:26

So the c l four fifteen is a twin engine fixed wing amphibious aircraft used for water bombing. Apart from yourself, who else is on board the c l four fifteen when you're conducting firefighting operations?

Pascal: 24:36

On the firefighting operation, we are only captain and copilot on board.

Bryan: 24:40

Okay.

Pascal: 24:41

We are not allowed to put any people on the jump seat for water bombing operation since they we are on a restricted certificate.

Bryan: 24:50

Okay. So just a crew of two?

Pascal: 24:53

Yep.

Bryan: 24:54

For people who are unfamiliar with the four fifteen, can you give us a sense of how big it is, how much water it can carry, and any other facts and figures that would help put that in perspective?

Pascal: 25:03

Yeah. The, CL four fifteen is around 100 feet wide and can carry up 1,600 US gallon of water or if you prefer, 6,137 liter of water, the lift off weight is 47,000 pounds when we get out of the scoop, out of the lake. So it's pretty big airplane, but it's not really fast airplane. It's fast, but it's not as fast as a jet airplane for sure. Mhmm.

Pascal: 25:32

So it's it's really maneuverable, so we can do a tight turn. You can do pretty slow flight. When we go to the drop, we slow the flight at a 10 knots. Oh, wow. It's pretty slow.

Bryan: 25:47

Yeah. And then just for listeners who are not super familiar with how that would work, basically, the slower you go, the tighter you can turn. So I imagine that would be really helpful in the terrain you guys were flying in in California, for example, where there's a lot of, hills and valleys and and things like that.

Pascal: 26:05

Yeah. We can turn turn pretty tight, Flat 15 and slow down the airplane. You can turn pretty tight.

Bryan: 26:11

Awesome. Does the c l four fifteen ever carry fire retardant or just water? And can you explain the difference in strategy and execution between dropping water and fire retardant?

Pascal: 26:22

We are about to have kind of a fire retardant. We we call that foam. It's basically soap. You're gonna mix with water. We have a pump inside with the control in the cockpit.

Pascal: 26:35

So we can add that to the water. That's the same way to think when you use foam on the water, it's gonna cut the air to the fire and keep the moisture in the vegetation. When we bottle a if you drop foam or you drop retardant, you don't want to drop water over that so you have to drop in between let's say the fire retardant and the fire or directly on the FAR. The CL415 is, to my knowledge, the only capable machine who go right into the smoke with it's mainly designed to go the majority in the smoke so we can pass through the fire and, drop right in the, the flames. On the other airplane, you have the risk of a compressor stall and everything, so because of the difference of temperature and everything.

Pascal: 27:31

So

Bryan: 27:31

Oh, wow. So the CL four fifteen is engineered so that they don't run into those kinds of issues?

Pascal: 27:37

Yeah. Yeah. We have they're called HBB and the blink valve. So that's gonna prevent from the surge of the compressor.

Bryan: 27:44

Okay. Well, that's really interesting. I never even thought about that being an issue but that's really cool.

Pascal: 27:51

Yeah. I hate this school.

Bryan: 27:53

And just so I understand, when it comes to fire retardant versus water, water I believe you're dropping on the fire and retardant you're dropping ahead of the fire. Ahead of the fire. Is that roughly correct?

Pascal: 28:04

Yeah. Yeah. It's a good way to see it. With foam, you sometimes we put it directly on the fire, but, when you have a big open flame, it's not really efficient to put the foam directly on the big open flame. The foam is lighter with when it's mixed, so it can pop up with the updraft and everything of the heat, you

Bryan: 28:24

know? Okay.

Pascal: 28:24

So you prefer to put water. And if you have just a small open flame all over the place, you can put foam without any problem. So that's gonna cut the air and everything.

Bryan: 28:35

Okay.

Pascal: 28:35

So that's a baseline.

Bryan: 28:37

Okay. How do you assess the winds for a drop and how does this factor influence your approach?

Pascal: 28:43

In Quebec, we try to do mainly headwind drop. So if you go headwind, the drop will stop with the wind and drop right. It's easier from, from my perspective to drop in the right place. But sometimes you are not able to do it because of the mountain or power line or anything you have in the undermantle of the forest or sometimes you have to to go crosswind, downwind or so the drop will drift, so you have to adjust your drop. And everything goes by, let's say, fading experience, so you have to manage the wind drift and the wind force, so you have to manage that.

Pascal: 29:29

Since we're flying two in the formation, the first one drop, the second one can adjust the drop with what he saw in in front of him. So I can adjust, let's say, one wing to the left or one wing to the right or a little bit later or sooner, depending on what is on front.

Bryan: 29:48

Okay.

Pascal: 29:49

So it's always easier to be second instead of the first one.

Bryan: 29:54

Yeah. And I was gonna ask that the CL415s fly in a formation of two while firefighting. Is that the biggest reason behind it that you have that chance then to adjust based on the drop in front of you?

Pascal: 30:04

So one of the reasons for sure, but it's not the only reason. It's just more efficient to have two planes at the same time. So the goal to achieve the suppression of fire, it's put more water by the hour on the fire. So if you have a small fire, it took really a lot of water to put it out. So if we are too, we're gonna work half of the hour we have to fly before come down the fire.

Pascal: 30:38

I say I say put it off, but mainly we do not put it off the fire, it's the ground crew, who just come come the fire so the crew can go and shut up the, the fire, you know.

Bryan: 30:52

So you guys are more controlling the fire until the ground firefighters can put it out?

Pascal: 30:56

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the, that's the way it goes.

Bryan: 31:01

Okay.

Pascal: 31:02

Sometime on a small fire, you can put it out, but mainly on the big fire, it's, it go too deeper in the in the ground. So the water you're gonna drop from this from the sky will not go as deep as they need it.

Bryan: 31:14

Okay. Can you take us through how you do a drop from start to finish?

Pascal: 31:19

Yeah. We'll try it. So first, I would say from Quebec or Canada, we took off from the airport heading to the far mission coordinate we have. And we found a lake the closest by the far as possible to be more efficient. And by the time we find the lake, sometime we'll have one well, the lead plane gonna go over the far, have a view of the far and everything to look at the way we're gonna drop if the situation is possible.

Pascal: 31:48

Otherwise, we're gonna both scoop the water and go over the fire and have a look of the situation awareness, mountain, power line, entry, exit. And if it if it's not complicated, we're gonna do the drop, so do the pattern just like you do in the airport and just drop and reload and come back until the guys on top of us, the ghost said we have enough so we can go back home. If it's more complicated, we can do a dry run or, let's say, if we have firefighters on the ground, sometimes we have no contact with them. So by doing a dry run, they're gonna see us and they're gonna put the water hose throwing water out of the of the trees, so we're gonna see them. So that's gonna tell us they they have to see us and they're gonna get out of the way because you don't wanna drop water and, let's say broke a tree and the tree would fall on the firefighter.

Pascal: 32:50

That's that's not the way you wanna do it. It's can be dangerous if if somebody is on the ground. Yeah. Depending on the visitation you have, you know. So that's basically the the way we do it.

Bryan: 33:02

Okay. What is the typical time frame from receiving a call to launching an aerial firefighting mission?

Pascal: 33:09

When we are on alert, we have three degrees of alert. We have one. It's called green. It's a one hour response before taking off. We have yellow, which is thirty minutes, and we have red, which is, fifteen minutes.

Pascal: 33:23

Oh, wow. I will say it's basically the same of a, army. You know, you have degree of alert, and you have to be ready to taking off. When we are all in Quebec, nobody is requesting. We have two hours before taking off.

Pascal: 33:39

So that's the baseline. Back in the years in Los Angeles, we had around five minutes before taking off. Yeah, were in the tanker base, the plane is ready, check, fuel, just jumping and taking off. The way we are situated in the Van Nuys Airport. We are just across of the Van Nuys, so it's pretty fast to taking off.

Pascal: 34:03

And we have a prior priority just like Midevac. Right. So when we are in a formation, it's it's pretty quick at the end of year.

Bryan: 34:11

Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the contract in California, the rotations that personnel do, and some of the challenges you've had lately. Let's set the stage a little here. The c l four fifteen has been involved in firefighting in California for decades. Can you tell us about when you folks are normally in California and what the start or end of the fire season looks like?

Pascal: 34:33

Yeah. Just like I said before, we start the agreement to be ready for firefighting in Los Angeles, September First, and it's for ninety days. So it lead to basically December 1, and we are two sail four fifteen over there with two crew, so that make us able to do a fire mission between the sunrise and sunset.

Bryan: 34:54

Okay.

Pascal: 34:55

So in the in the September, the day is longer so we need to have two crew per plane and even in December when the day is shorter from October, they have what they call over there a Santa Ana wind, that the wind comes from the desert, it goes pretty just like we saw in January, it goes pretty strong and it came with the low level of humidity and heating. So it's really challenging, it's really rough on the pilot or the crew. So, after two missions, what we're doing is we do a crew change. So even if the pilot still have the ability of flying, we're gonna do a crew change just to make sure we have a fresh crew in the airplane. So that's the basic condition that what we have over there.

Pascal: 35:45

And of course, we have our technician with us. So we have four technician with us at all time in Los Angeles. So that's make us really able to do, mission and, maintenance during the fire season over there.

Bryan: 36:01

And we talked a little bit about this in our pre interview call. What are the conditions required for you guys to head back to Quebec?

Pascal: 36:09

Normally, there's lots of condition, but, the baseline is, when you get two inches of rain, you're gonna be released and heading back to Quebec, but there's something hiding on that. The availability of the airplane from the Los Angeles County, The crew, if they have, let's say they have it, just like us, probably the lack of, hiring pilots over there firefighting on the ground, so the resources is another condition before releasing us. And of course the weather, just like I said, two inches of rain, but let's say we have two inches of rain, but they have a Santa Ana prediction just like last winter, with a really strong Santa Ana wind coming in a week, they can say we're gonna keep you for another week or something like that because they anticipate maybe a problem with the fire suppression.

Bryan: 37:05

Okay. So basically, you can go home when there's two inches of rain in the forecast, no Santa Ana winds, and enough crews and aircraft to manage the fires. Exactly. Okay. That makes sense.

Bryan: 37:18

What does a normal rotation look like for a pilot coming to California?

Pascal: 37:23

Normally, the pilot, doing twenty eight days rotation in California. So, yeah, we do twenty eight days, came back home. And when we have enough crew, it's gonna be it for for them for for the year. But since we are missing some crew, we're doing, like, multiple rotation or even can go all the way to, the maximum of the regulation, which is forty two day.

Bryan: 37:49

And forty two days, can you tell us about when you arrived in California and how long you ended up being there?

Pascal: 37:55

Yeah. My last petition start on the December 25, and I stayed there for almost forty two days. I took two planes on the way back to home and we get stuck for mechanical issues. So I hit my forty two days, so I had to jump on the airline to come back.

Bryan: 38:13

Oh, yeah. Why did you end up in California for that long?

Pascal: 38:18

Just to make the contract going on and the because of the lack of people, you know, just like I said before, everybody is back home, is off, and we have the desire to, comply with the agreement we had with the Los Angeles County Fire Department so we didn't want to say we're going back home because we don't have any pilots so I forced some pilot to go and I forced myself to go as well So, it makes more sense to me and, so that's why I make forty two days, over there on the Christmas time.

Bryan: 38:54

Okay. So let's talk a little bit about when the fires began. From January 2025, a series of 14 destructive wildfires affected the Los Angeles Metropolitan Area and San Diego County in California, United States. The fires were exacerbated by drought conditions, low humidity, a buildup of vegetation from the previous winter, and hurricane force Santa Ana winds, which in some places reached 100 miles per hour or 160 kilometers per hour. As of 01/31/2025, the wildfires have killed at least 29 people, forced more than 200,000 people to evacuate, and destroyed more than 18,000 homes and structures.

Bryan: 39:33

The wildfires have burned over 57,000 acres of land in total. Most of the damage was from the two largest fires, the Eaton fire in Altadena and the Palisades Fire in Pacific Palisades, both of which were fully contained on 01/31/2025. So let's start with the day you got the call. Can you describe the events of January 8 when you received the call for the Palisade Fire, including the wind conditions and your decision making process?

Pascal: 39:57

Yeah. That morning was really windy. And when we got a call, my wingman, Vashem, was looking at the computer because we have a small computer in the tanker base, which is basically a fire station with camera on the station they call 69Bravo, and they have a wind indication over there. And you look at the computer, and it told me it is 63 knots over the hill at the 69 Bravo. What we're gonna do with the call?

Pascal: 40:26

Let's say we're going and we're gonna see if it's doable, if we can do something even if we're thinking about turbulence or even the efficiency of the drop because sometimes you drop and the water goes sideways and cannot hit the ground. For this situation, we were able to to working. So we took off and we heading to the palace so far. This moment was around 10:45, I think, something like that in the morning.

Bryan: 40:54

And I think you said you had had, like, an interesting discussion with the Chinook crew as well that morning?

Pascal: 40:59

Yeah. Just before we get a call, the guys of the Chinook, take the Chinook and put it in the anger, and they told us it was too windy for for them to start the engine. I'm not really good with the their limitation, but they have a limitation to start the engine of the wind, the wind direction, and the, the wind force. So, they decided to put the Chinook inside of the anchor because, they don't wanna break it, and we get a call. And since we don't have the limitation for engine start or takeoff, if we are headwind, there's no limitation for taking off.

Pascal: 41:32

So there was no no problem for us to go in afar. Wow. And c l four fifteen is a it's kind of a tank of a, airplane. It's really, really strong.

Bryan: 41:42

Wow. So it's so windy that a Chinook can't even start and you guys are going out to fight a fire?

Pascal: 41:48

Yeah. Yeah. At this location, the Chinook was not able to start. But when we get in the fire, was a there was Chinook over there because they came from outside of region, know? Yep.

Pascal: 41:59

Maybe something like that, so they came farther. And Chinook from Van Nuys, they're taking off around forty five, fifty minutes after that.

Bryan: 42:09

Okay.

Pascal: 42:09

So I guess the wind kept down and they get out of the Inger and they can join us to battle that huge harp.

Bryan: 42:17

Wow. As we said, you decided to press and go and fly your mission. Can you explain the process of a flight from start to finish?

Pascal: 42:25

Yeah. It was like a kind of a regular mission for us in beginning. So we just start taxiing back to the, Runway 34. Alabama is thinking of heading to the Palisade Fire. We have a brochure there to do to go on the initial point to get contact with the alco.

Pascal: 42:43

We get clear in, we get it in, and we do our first drop, look at the ocean to try to find a spot to scoop since we were really windy. It was, I would say, around three to four feet of wave over the ocean, which is pretty big. So we found a spot. We try our first scoop, and we head into the fire, and and we get able to do 23, scoop and drop over that fire.

Bryan: 43:11

In one flight?

Pascal: 43:12

In one flight, in that two hour and a half flight.

Bryan: 43:14

Wow. That's so busy. If you think about how many evolutions that is and you said two and a half hours? Yeah. That's crazy.

Bryan: 43:23

That's that's a lot.

Pascal: 43:25

Yeah. It is. Yeah. If you get times two, it's 46 drop for both airplane. So that's quite a bit of blood and water.

Pascal: 43:33

And I remember once heading to one of the drop under the smoke column, they have a spot fire just in front of the head of the fire and there was down the valley heading to the drop, and when I look at the house over the valley there were people on top of the garage terrace and they were running out, they didn't see the fire I guess in the bottom and there was something to see all the people around and you know, the car jam in the traffic. They cannot get out of the, pedestrian. So, it was really it's the first time I saw that.

Bryan: 44:09

It was the first time you saw, like, so many people at a fire?

Pascal: 44:12

Yeah. So many people stuck trying, you know, leaving the car there and walking to escape the the far region or, like, the area. So that was really a tense of course, everybody do their best to calm the fire to put it out, but it was really, really windy in this time. It was really bumpy as well. Wow.

Pascal: 44:37

So it was pretty it was pretty hard on the even on the plane and on the crew, you know, was as bumpy as, you know, if you don't have your seat belt tight enough, you're gonna hit your head on the roof of the plane. So

Bryan: 44:51

Wow. So would you say what? Like, moderate or severe turbulence?

Pascal: 44:56

I would say severe for sure.

Bryan: 44:58

Wow. Yeah. Which is really intense. Like, severe turbulence for listeners is basically, you're not able to control the aircraft through it. Like, not that it'll throw your aircraft, you know, into into the ground or something, but you're not able to maintain your flight path.

Pascal: 45:15

Yeah. Yep. That was exactly like that.

Bryan: 45:18

Wow.

Pascal: 45:19

But that was just briefly. That was just momentary, you know, when you cross a ridge or, you know Yeah. When you have, like, a downdraft, you know, you can drop maybe under 200 feet Yeah. Pretty quick, like, 3,000 feet per minute down and come back to normal. So it's pretty it's pretty rough.

Bryan: 45:38

Yeah. And doing that over and over again is exhausting.

Pascal: 45:41

Yeah. Yeah. When you just pass through, it's not that bad. But when you walk in that area for two hour or three hours, it's it's really challenging for the the pilot.

Bryan: 45:53

Yeah. I believe it. When you saw the fires for the first time from the pilot's seat, what went through your mind?

Pascal: 45:59

Oh my god. That was that was when we just jumped over the ridge. The fire was already big. It was growing pretty fast. It was jumping as well since the vegetation was really dry.

Pascal: 46:17

So every time in between the scoop and the drop, the fire situation was changing. So we really tried to do our best to save some people in the house. I think it works. Yeah. But, know, we never we never know.

Pascal: 46:33

You know? It's because we we are not in the ground just like the firefighters. So we help for sure, but we never know if it if it was a goal. Yeah. The goal was achieved on that.

Bryan: 46:42

So that must be tough sometimes to not know the outcome of your work.

Pascal: 46:46

Yeah. Yeah. It's sometimes you thinking about that, you know, after after the action and you say, oh, that I should drop and that the other fire spot that would be maybe more effective or, you know normally, the echo manage the drop. They they ask where they they want us to drop, but that and that fire was really too busy for everybody. So we try our best to to drop on the fireworks close to the people or house to slow down the progression and that the people, give time to people to exit the area.

Bryan: 47:22

As you settled into a rhythm, what was a typical shift like for you as a pilot? What time of day did you start and how many hours a day were you flying?

Pascal: 47:30

In California, the start time is eight for normal, flying hours, like, where where we are not on red flag. Red flag is a fire behavior, weather warning. So on a normal day, we start at eight and we finish by the sunset. But on the red flag warning, we're starting at seven in the morning till the sunset. So that's the basic day what we're gonna do.

Pascal: 47:58

For the flying hours, it depends on the everyday, every situation. We can go up to eight hours of firefighting on the same day, but just like I said, since we are two crew in the Los Angeles, we're not gonna go that far. We're gonna do two missions and change a crew. Even if we have only one mission left and it get into the eight hours, we're gonna do a crew change Yeah. Just to make sure to have fresh people on-site.

Bryan: 48:25

And were you flying every day?

Pascal: 48:27

No. No. No. Depends, you know, the Los Angeles County, they manage all the tools they have for the best reaction they need to. Let's say CL415 is the best, in my mind is the best tool to do an initial attack.

Pascal: 48:45

So on the fire start, let's say after one or two days, all the firefighter is set up, you have the retarded line done, you have lots of chopper, so it may be not the best tool to use. In my mind, it's still the more efficient tool, but, you know, everybody's gonna see that for like, a proper pilot gonna see that and we're gonna see that, but when you think about it, 1,600 gallon times two on the initial attack, that's the best tool you can have on quick responses. Even if I said it's not fast, it's faster than a chopper and we carry much more water than a chopper as well and we have really quick turnaround, we can do just like I said 100 drop in a day. So it's really efficient on the initial attack or to protect a retardant line but when it's too crowded on the FAR, you have to manage the resources, you have to the best way you need it, and even if they have a big parasite FAR and all the other around, they still have a new start, so they need to have tool to go on a new start as well.

Bryan: 49:59

Okay.

Pascal: 49:59

So they manage that the best way then you have the crew rest as well. It's it's really complicated to manage so, that's why we didn't fly there every day.

Bryan: 50:09

And I imagine the days you're off, you're just resting?

Pascal: 50:12

Yeah. Because we are two crew, so we have one day zone and one day standby. So when on a day standby, yeah, you're just, staying around and resting and be prepared to, for the next day or even in the afternoon or if somebody gets sick, you know, as an example.

Bryan: 50:29

Yep. Yep. I think I've kind of figured this out from what you've said talking about sunrise sunset, but do you fly exclusively during the day or do you make nighttime drops in the 04:15?

Pascal: 50:40

We're not able to do nighttime drops since we don't have any night vision, goggle, or everything like that. And even with that, we were not able to do a scoop out of the lake because we're you're gonna not be able to see like a wood log on the lake or, you know, the wind direction, the wave. It's it's gonna be complicated with a night.

Bryan: 51:02

It'd be super dangerous.

Pascal: 51:03

Yeah. With the night vision, but I know the chopper can do, like, night flying. We can do night flying for, point a to point b on the ferry flight or, like, a positioning flight, but we were not able to do firefighting during the night.

Bryan: 51:18

Okay. Did you feel as though you were making a meaningful difference when you were making these drops or did it ever feel hopeless with the size of the fires?

Pascal: 51:27

I was thinking we made difference on the on the fire for sure. Just like I said before, we we're trying our best to give people time to escape the area. So it was really efficient especially in California since it's more like a brush fire so when you drop 1,600 gallons of water it's really efficient to count the fire or even knock it off on a small part but with the drop they have, it was really rapid to relight after that. So even if it was really efficient, it was kind of with that force of wind on mostly regain category one, win forces that was growing really rapidly.

Bryan: 52:15

Yeah. So it sounds like like you said, it's almost more about giving people time to get out than at that point actually stopping the fire. It was almost a containment thing to let people escape.

Pascal: 52:28

In beginning was just like that, you know, to me was when we saw people, we were just heading there and trying to, just like I said, give them time to escape, go somewhere. When you see the flames going just like everybody I've seen on the news, see tison rolling on the street and everything. So was something from the air but I cannot imagine from the ground was how how hard was that to to leave that.

Bryan: 52:57

Oh yeah. I can't imagine being on the ground in that kind of a situation.

Pascal: 53:01

Me either.

Bryan: 53:03

Can you describe what it looked like after each drop? Could you physically see the flames go out?

Pascal: 53:08

Yeah. So when you are like, number one, it's hard to see if the flames are going out. But on your turn, on that particular fire, when we're turning back to the ocean, we were able to see the spot of the drop. The number two can easily see the flames going out and it can just tag and extend or roll up to the first drop. So that makes the dropping more efficient.

Pascal: 53:36

But on a turn, you can see the even a white smoke or just like the black area without any any smokes, depending on the intensity of the area you drop it.

Bryan: 53:47

Okay. So you guys could actually see it going out. That's awesome. So obviously, was a multifaceted effort with lots of different aircraft and firefighting agencies involved. But Canada and the c l four fifteen got a lot of attention in the media.

Bryan: 54:00

How did the California community or the community of firefighters receive you? Did they have a strong sense that they valued your contributions to fighting the fire?

Pascal: 54:08

I will say yes. They're already happy to see us. Just like I said before, it's another tool in the box of the, Hennepin County Fire department. Just like every entity, somebody like us, somebody don't like us, even on the people who can see that in news. But mainly, I think the tool is valuable for what they need to do and for the fire season as well.

Pascal: 54:34

Just like I said before, sometimes the chopper cannot take off and we can so that can can be safe for the population over there and everything. So and I think the authority El County Fire Department are aware of that. So, it's really valuable valuable too. In my mind, of course, it's the the best tool we can have to fight for because it was engineering for for that. Mhmm.

Pascal: 54:59

You know, just, chopper was not engineering to do that. It can be really efficient as well, but was not designed for that.

Bryan: 55:06

That's right. If you look at all the videos of all the various firefighting aircraft that were involved in LA, I think the only purpose built firefighting aircraft there is the c l four fifteen.

Pascal: 55:16

It is. It is. There's lots of the, whole the military airplane was modified to do retardant drop, like Hercules they're doing like a water drop but it's not the same. They have not the same impact of what we can have since we can go right directly in the fire. Just on the pedestal fire, we were heading to a spot fire, just talking before, and the echo was, after a teardrop, he said, okay guys, you cannot go there anymore.

Pascal: 55:44

I think you know, the people who are not understanding what we are capable to with those planes because it's really maneuverable, know, it's really powerful, so we can do a lot of job with this airplane. I will not say we can do the same job of the chopper because the chopper can stop, can slow, it's different but we almost can do the same job of the chopper with the airplane, upslope, downslope, crosswind and everything. So we are right in middle of the chopper and retardant plane. So it's kind of really multi purpose airplane, which makes really efficient.

Bryan: 56:25

And it was kind of nice that given all the friction between Canada and The United States that was happening at that time, it was kind of nice that we could send help still and be good neighbors and put the politics aside and and show up for our friends.

Pascal: 56:41

Yeah. Canada and United States, my mind, was always partner in in that. So, since we're going there for thirty one years in, Los Angeles, it's certainly a long partnership, and I don't think anybody wants that ending soon No. On both sides. So

Bryan: 57:01

So what kind of toll does it take on you emotionally knowing the fire is out of control? People are losing their homes and in some cases losing their lives. Did you have an emotional response in that moment or did it maybe hit you weeks or months after the fact?

Pascal: 57:15

Yeah. The first response was just like a normal mission, a little bit bumpy, windy, and when we pass over the far after the first drop heading to the ocean, that's when I see all the traffic jam to the PCH was really long line of car jam on even on PCH on the all the Canyon Road. That's where I realized there was, like, live involved. So it was pretty emotional for sure, and it was hard to to see that. We are used to see some house burning, you know, one, two house, something happened in Los Angeles.

Pascal: 58:00

That's the life over there. But to see all the neighborhood like that burning, you know, at that time I was thinking if we can be like all ten, four fifteen here on the same time, can be really big difference. But it was just like a thinking, you know, we cannot send 10 aircraft and send them over there, but that's what we need for sure. And it was at the time of the year was hard to get even people in an airplane. So when you see after each drop the situation going, like, pretty fast, changing pretty fast and burning house, burning, like, school and everything.

Pascal: 58:48

It was certainly emotional to see that, you know, we'd done we'd done the first two hour and a half refuel and came back, and it was changing. Was not the same fire when we came back. Mhmm. It was, like, bigger, closer to the shore, to the ocean, and we're just trying our best to prevent the fire going to the Santa Monica side. There was a small canyon over there, so we're just trying to do our best to stop control of our so yeah, it was the first time for me to see a live trip like that and the building trip like that, like as many building as that, you know, was full neighborhood that was not just just like a one is a little house or something that was was was really, really hard.

Bryan: 59:40

Yeah. Yeah. I can only imagine that must have been really challenging and probably tough to sort of put that aside and focus and stay sharp on the mission.

Pascal: 59:50

It's hard to put on the side, but of course, you don't have time to think really about that. When you just pass over heading to the ocean, have the mind going on, but as soon as you turn on a final to scoop on the ocean with three feet of wave or four feet of wave with maybe, I don't know, it was like maybe 40 knots on the ocean of wind, so it was really windy. So you didn't have time to think about anything else of just flying your plane because you're not gonna be able to scoop on that kind of ocean. When you're load heading to the drop, you're just thinking about the way you're gonna do it, way you're gonna enter, exit the drop zone. So you don't think about that either.

Pascal: 01:00:42

So there's just a small period of time. And, of course, when you get back home after after the day, you're back thinking about of that and everything. So that was pretty hard.

Bryan: 01:00:56

Yeah. I can only imagine. Yeah. Okay, Pascal. That's gonna wrap up part one of our discussion on firefighting operations in LA on the CL four fifteen.

Bryan: 01:01:05

Thanks so much for doing what you do and for taking the time to share your story with us today.

Pascal: 01:01:10

My pleasure.

Bryan: 01:01:10

Okay. We'll talk to you on the next one. Okay. Alright. That wraps up part one of our chat with Pascal Duclois about fighting the wildfires in LA.

Bryan: 01:01:20

For our next episode, we'll talk about some of the challenges he and his crew faced, how the fires were finally brought under control, as well as some of the differences between firefighting in Quebec and California. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show? You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF aircraft.

Bryan: 01:01:49

As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up.

Bryan: 01:02:03

See you.