Episode 50: The Inferno: Aerial Firefighting in the Palisades Fires in California and flying the Canadair CL-415 Part 2 - Pascal Duclos
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Skies Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is Pascal Duclaud, an aerial firefighting pilot with Servis Airgaines Governmental du Quebec. Pascal, welcome back to the show.
Bryan:I've been looking forward to this. Listeners can tune into part one of our chat to hear about Pascal's early career, his flight training, as well as how he arrived in LA County and began to fight the fires there. Today, for part two of our chat with Pascal, we're going to talk about the challenges he and his crews faced, how the fires were finally brought under control, and some of the differences between fighting fires in LA and Quebec. So let's roll right into talking about some of the challenges you faced over there. The airspace must have been extremely busy at times.
Bryan:How is all that managed?
Pascal:Yeah. It was a really busy airspace even on beginning with the all the chopper responding to the fire there. It's mainly managed by the what we call HELCO. It's a helicopter controller there. And when it get bigger, we get more people involved.
Pascal:Basically, there's some urgency who's gonna take care of the traffic control from the fixed wing. The HELCO gonna switch to the lead plane or other kind of fixed wing controller guys on the airplane who gonna control the traffic, especially for, let's say, one side of the the fire and get control of, let's say, left side of the the fire and manage all the fixed wing on the left side.
Bryan:Okay. So they start to split up the responsibilities?
Pascal:Yeah. Exactly. Okay.
Bryan:How does the increased air traffic with more helicopters than fixed wing aircraft affect the safety and effectiveness of aerial firefighting operations?
Pascal:It is yeah. With all the smoke in the area, restricted visibility and vicinity of fire, it's the main concern for all the pilots. You when you're heading to the fire and the visibility going low, you certainly wanna make sure the the line is clear before you go into the drop zone. So, it's a big concern for every pilot in the, for, environmental thing.
Bryan:Does it take some time to get used to that? Like, at first, do you find yourself nervous when you're new to it?
Pascal:I guess you just trust the old guys who they are used to, but for sure, you just start thinking about that when you get into the smoke and didn't see nothing and you heard somebody and getting out of the smoke.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. It reminds me a little bit of flying. I think I might have said this to you in our pre interview call. It reminds me of doing anti submarine work down low at night.
Bryan:You can't see anything. You know there's helicopters below you and you just have to trust that everybody's following the rules and procedures and that that's gonna keep everybody safe.
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah. You're just hoping everybody's fighting the rule. But in these days, it's much easier with the iPad and the ADS B traffic advisory and TCAS and everything.
Pascal:So it's much easier to have a better situational awareness in the far area.
Bryan:Yeah. I guess that new technology would be like a huge boost to your situational awareness. Yeah. For sure. So as you're aware, one of the c l four fifteens was out of service temporarily due to a collision with an unauthorized drone.
Bryan:How frustrating was that for you and the other pilots given how unnecessary and dangerous that was?
Pascal:It was really frustrating for us for sure because we just get back of the first mission of the day that they we hit the drone, and the plane was, of course, down for the for a few days. Right? Yeah. So it was really disappointing for the help we can brought to the the fire because there was planning to to go back on the padded side fire this time when we get back and the technician realized we we hit the drone because the crew didn't know, notice any sound or
Bryan:Oh, really?
Pascal:Feeling of the the drone impact. Wow.
Bryan:I would have thought they would notice that.
Pascal:No. No. No. Nobody noticed. That was with all the communication and the wind, the the the, you know, turbulence and everything.
Pascal:So it's
Bryan:Super noisy and bumpy, so you wouldn't you just wouldn't feel it or hear it?
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan:What was the damage to the aircraft?
Pascal:Well, there was a pretty big hole on the left, let's say, three quarter wings span of it. So there was a pretty big hole there. When the technician get up, he found the the drone inside of the the wings and with some part of the drone, and they found the the battery inside of the wing as well. Yeah.
Bryan:Oh, wow. So what would have happened if that had hit, say, an engine and caused an engine failure? What happens to a CL four fifteen if you have an engine failure when you have a belly full of water?
Pascal:We are trained to manage that for sure. So we can manage it. But of course, an engine failure can be dramatic if, you know, something went wrong or, you know, if it's in the worst place. Let's say just after the scoop or just before the drop, you're heading into the canyon and you have engine failure. I don't know.
Pascal:If if you forget something on the sequence, it could be really dangerous. And yeah. So we were lucky it was happening only on the on the wings. But even on the wings, it could be really dramatic if you think about the battery getting hot and explode inside of the wing. You have fuel tank over there, fuel nacelles, so it could be dramatic as well.
Pascal:Even on the wind chair can go through.
Bryan:Yeah. It's super lucky that that battery didn't experience like a catastrophic failure, overheat and explode. That would have been crazy. Yeah. So overall, what is it like to fly in such congested airspace?
Pascal:It's a little bit stressful for sure. And you are like looking all over the place to see the traffic, see because you still have to look at all the terrain hazard you can have. So we are too in the in the cockpit and this sometimes feel not enough to to see everybody and all the hazards.
Bryan:Yeah. I can imagine. Now onboard, you're listening to four different radios during firefighting operations. Are there any strategies you use to maintain clear and effective communications in the air?
Pascal:Yeah. Four four seems a lot, but when you get used to, you play with the volume on the each radio and so you get used to. You listen four, you're talking on the other one. So it's doable with everybody.
Bryan:Yeah. Do you divide it up? Like, do you say, hey, you listen to radios two and three, I'll listen to radios one and four or anything like that?
Pascal:The captain will listen all four for sure. Sometime the copilot is he's the guy who's talking in the in LA. So sometime the copilot divides some he will send it to the captain, I will let you the FM radio.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Pascal:So because they have to talk if something is busy in the FM radio, so we switch yeah. It developed for to be able to talk.
Bryan:I'm picturing how busy you guys must be. It's gotta be crazy because, again, I can only relate to my own experience, but on the Aurora, we had a flight engineer. Right? So we were busy. We were flying low.
Bryan:There's lots of we're listening to four plus radios sometimes. And I've talked about the traffic we would encounter. But we had a flight engineer to manage our systems, and if there was an emergency or something, you know, we had a systems expert sitting in between us. So it must be really challenging with just the two pilots on board.
Pascal:It is. It is challenging. Yeah. Especially in Los Angeles area.
Bryan:Yeah. No doubt.
Pascal:With all the control zone and the traffic. Because you have sometimes you have traffic outside of the TFR, fire zone, let's say.
Bryan:TFR is a temporary flight restriction. Right?
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. It is. So because for us, we're gonna need to go outside of the TFR to scoop. So you're gonna have to manage all the control zone and the civil traffic on on top of all the rest you have to manage.
Bryan:Wow. I never even thought of that. But yeah, you have to transit to and from the fire area. And I guess they don't just stand up some kind of corridor or anything for you. You have to transit as if you were any other aircraft.
Bryan:But you must get priority. Right?
Pascal:We tend to stay out of a control zone
Bryan:Okay.
Pascal:For most of the time. But if you have to go through some control zone, you're gonna request the priority for sure.
Bryan:Okay. So we're talking about how you transit there. Speaking of scooping, you scoop water from both reservoirs and the ocean in these operations. Can you describe the techniques and challenges of operating out of the reservoirs of California?
Pascal:Scooping out of the reservoir is is challenging because the reservoir has is pretty small. It's not as big as a lake. So some are pretty big, like Castaic Reservoir, but other are smaller, like Santa Fe Reservoir. So, yeah, it can be really challenging. So you have to manage the amount of water you're gonna have enter or exit the wind.
Pascal:Yeah. It's it's really a teamwork when you go there. So you have to talk with the other crew to just to make sure everybody understand what we're gonna do and what are we gonna do.
Bryan:What kind of challenges specifically for the reservoirs? Like, you have a lot of obstacles to worry about or are they typically pretty clear around them or
Pascal:Normally, it's pretty clear, but there's some with the power line at the end of either either on exit or entry. So, just everybody goes through by a good briefing Yeah. Before the scoop, and even after the scoop if something went wrong or if somebody is not comfortable with that. So just make sure everybody is aware of every hazard there or everybody needs a good situational awareness for for that.
Bryan:It reminds me sort of of when you're doing your private pilot license training and you're doing a precautionary emergency landing. Do you do sort of that same idea where you do a flyby and look at the reservoir and observe it for obstacles and length and wind and all those things?
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. It's almost the same. Yeah.
Bryan:Okay.
Pascal:It's basically doing extend touch and go because you you stay in the water for twelve to fifteen seconds to scoop, all the 1,600 gallons. So, it's kind of a extend touch and go, but you have to make sure the entry and the exit is good.
Bryan:Okay.
Pascal:Even if you have, like, a engine fire, engine fail, or something like that.
Bryan:Okay. Sounds really challenging.
Pascal:It is. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. What special challenges are involved in scooping from the ocean?
Pascal:From the ocean is could be really really bumpy because the frequency of the wave are different than what you're gonna have from wind waves. So they call it a swell. So it could be really rough and could break the plane if you if you go wrong way or if you go too big as well. So when it goes big, you tend to just scoop the top of the of the swell or the wave. So you you need to keep the plane flying.
Pascal:Let's say like that.
Bryan:Okay. So you're basically flying along the crest of the swell and scooping from there? Yeah. Does the salt affect the aircraft at all or the water tanks and lines or anything like that?
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. The salt affect the the plane for sure. So every time we go in the ocean, the technician need to wash the plane inside of the tank, water tank, and hot side after the day or few days of scooping inside of the ocean. And we need to do a compressor wash as well for the engine.
Pascal:Oh, yeah. So you're probably probably gonna have to do that when the army arrives since you fly just over the ocean.
Bryan:Yep. Yeah. We have rules that basically, if you fly below a certain altitude, have to go through we call it the bird bath. It's this huge thing that sprays the plane down. So the technicians have to do extra stuff as well and it's a lot of work for sure for them.
Pascal:Yeah. It's almost the same thing but we just don't have the big shower so they
Bryan:need to
Pascal:have my hose and brush.
Bryan:Oh, that's a lot of work. Yeah, it is. So new captains have to train to scoop from the ocean. Do you do that training during active firefighting missions? And if not, when?
Pascal:No. We don't do that training during fire mission. We do that on the day which is seems calm, calm day. It's it's gonna be an alert day for sure, but let's say, there's no active fire in the area, so we can do training. And we try to find not too rough day just to make sure the new captain or the candidate can learn from the the training and cannot be scared, know.
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. Because if the conditions are too difficult, they're not gonna learn anything.
Pascal:Yeah. That's right.
Bryan:Yeah. That's the same principles we follow in the air force with our student training. Like, it's okay to have conditions be challenging, but there's a limit where any type of learning is just not gonna happen because they're struggling too much with with the conditions.
Pascal:Exactly.
Bryan:Do you eventually say you do it on a calm day after that? Do you take them out on a rougher day?
Pascal:No. Because we try to don't do ocean scooping often. So we just do that on the necessary.
Bryan:Right.
Pascal:So it's gonna be one training for for captain, and after that, it's gonna be released.
Bryan:Okay.
Pascal:And that's it. After that, he's gonna pick up his, say, his own technique with the base of technique you can have in the scoop on the ocean. So yeah. So it's a one shot deal for the training.
Bryan:Is that because it's hard on the plane or because it's dangerous? Or why do you do it as little as possible?
Pascal:Just to because it's hard on the plane for sure. And, for maintenance guys as well, they
Bryan:Yeah.
Pascal:That does bring a lot of work on the after the, the training. So one is not really necessary. We're not gonna go in the ocean.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. So partly it's just being considerate for your ground crew.
Pascal:Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan:Yeah. What performance challenges do you face when taking off full from Santa Fe considering the weight of fuel and water? Because you're taking off with full water from Santa Fe. Right?
Pascal:Yeah. In Los Angeles, we're taking off from Van Nuys with 5,000 pound of fuel. We're gonna be able to scoop from Santa Fe, I'll say almost full of water. Depend of the wind and the temperature, of course, and, you know, the situation, the waiting time you're gonna gonna do before scooping. Because when we're taking off from Van Nuys, we're taking off with water just like we said before, I guess.
Pascal:So we're gonna head to the fire directly from the first takeoff. And after that, we're gonna hold, do all the procedure to get in the fire, and after that, getting to the Santa Fe to, holding kind of a recon flight, just like I said, to see all the hazard to make sure there's no people in the lake Yeah. Like on a canoe or something like that. So and after that, we're gonna scoop. So that's gonna burn quite a bit of fuel.
Pascal:We're gonna be able to scoop almost full full load of waters.
Bryan:Okay. What are the performance challenges like when you're departing when you're that heavy? How does the plane perform under those conditions? It's quite hot. Right?
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. Far water means mainly hotter days. So, yeah, it's, when you get off full of water, it's not gonna have a big performance on the on the timeout. So but, the center field is not that bad because you have just, on one way, you have a small dam on the at the end, which is maybe like five or five feet.
Pascal:So it's pretty easy to clear that out.
Bryan:So You've mentioned that when you're flying in California, you're always on the edge of performance limits. Can you give us some examples of that?
Pascal:Yeah. Just like Santa Fe, if you go on the the hot day, like, 43 degrees, no winds, that's gonna be really challenging for the the climb out. Let's say you lose an engine or something like that, that's gonna be more challenging for sure. By the time you drop your water after that's gonna be, that's not bad. And last winter was really the wind effect was putting us to the limit of the airplane.
Pascal:The wind we had, it was really bumpy and was right at the edge of the limit of the plane. Yeah. Even for the scoop on the ocean, three or four feet of waves. So scooping just on the only the top with a crosswind. So it was a left crosswind.
Pascal:So to me, it was at the edge of my capacity to scoop out of the ocean that day.
Bryan:And that's saying something since you're one of the more experienced pilots as well. Right?
Pascal:I will not say I'm one of the more experienced pilot, but I'd say let's say that in average of you guys.
Bryan:Sure. Sure. I like the humility. Just out of curiosity, what kind of climb rates are you seeing in those conditions when you're full? And what kind of climb rates would you see if you were to lose an engine?
Pascal:When we're full of load, let's say in a 40 degrees light wind, you're gonna have between 305 feet per minute
Bryan:Okay.
Pascal:Of climb. If you lose an engine, it's gonna be almost same. I wanna say 300 more most likely, at 40 degrees light wind.
Bryan:But that's when you've dumped the water?
Pascal:Or Yeah. Yeah. You dumped the water. So the first action is gonna you're gonna have to do if you lose an engine, it's gonna dump the water. What is challenging in Los Angeles is if you still if you are able to keep the control of the airplane even with the engine out, you're gonna try to manage when you're gonna drop the water because you don't wanna hurt anybody in the in the ground because you're not in the middle of nowhere.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Because that water comes down with like a lot of force. Right?
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So that's one of the challenging parts operating in the city area.
Bryan:Okay. Could you describe the difficulties posed by updrafts and downdrafts in the hills of Los Angeles and how you navigate these conditions? How difficult is the terrain itself?
Pascal:Yeah. With the hybrid terrain, Montenegro steering, you have to think about the wind. You have to try to anticipate the wind direction for the updraft and downdraft. It's really challenging when you're not used to, but it's just like going bicycle. Sometime you you get used to and you don't really think about it, but you do something.
Pascal:So you take one side of the valley because you guts feeling go there. So it just takes time. And after after a while, it just like kinda come naturally to go near on a good side.
Bryan:You kind of learn to read the terrain and read the winds and that that sort of thing?
Pascal:Yeah. Exactly. You know, with the valley, the wind's gonna follow the valley and can can give you a hub draft somewhere or a long draft. So you just have to be aware of that. Again, after a bit of while, you're gonna know, and it's gonna be like a kind of second nature to read that.
Pascal:But it's not to really read because you cannot see nothing. It's just you feel, anticipate what's what's gonna coming in front of you.
Bryan:Yeah. Like you said, it's a bit of a gut feeling. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.
Bryan:I would imagine visibility is a challenge when passing over the fires. What is it like passing over the fires, and how do you stay safe at low altitudes when visibility drops in the smoke?
Pascal:Passing over the fire, it's almost like going inside of the dryer. You know, can imagine you going inside the dryer, putting the dryer on, and put a mask in front of your eyes so you don't see nothing and you go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So Wow. Because it's gonna be big temperature change, momentarily loss of visibility, and you're gonna drop eventually. So that's gonna go put you higher, lighter, so you're gonna climb out.
Pascal:So the most important thing is to keep the wing straight. So you don't wanna turn because if, you know, let's say you are in the left turn and you have a hot spot on the right wing, which is already 30 degrees or 20 degrees on a turn, that can turn you over. So you don't wanna do that.
Bryan:It'll push that wing further up.
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. So, that's the most important thing. You keep straight and drop your water and go instrument flying for, let's say, a few seconds, five, ten seconds. Wow.
Pascal:It depend of the intensity of the fire, you know. One of the baseline is if you don't see through, you don't go through. This is one of the baseline, but sometime you cannot see through with maybe black smoke or something like that. So in Los Angeles, we don't go through black smoke because the intensity of the fire is really bigger than what we have in Canada. But because of the the vegetation is different, you know.
Pascal:Mhmm. So but in Canada, sometimes you you lose everything for, let's say, ten seconds.
Bryan:Wow. And you said just during that time you're on instruments to stay wings level, basically?
Pascal:Yeah. That's a that's a way to get out of that. Yeah. Sometimes you have em ember going inside of plane as well. So
Bryan:When you fly directly over a fire, this might be a silly question, but do you feel a change in temperature? Like, can you notice it?
Pascal:Yeah. You're gonna feel the hot and you're gonna you're gonna see the amber or the owner heard the different temperature hitting the plane just like a compressor stall on the engine. So yeah. So you're gonna feel it for sure.
Bryan:Okay. The fires were eventually contained as of the 01/31/2025. How did it feel when those fires were finally under control? Was there a sense of relief, a job well done feeling, or were you just excited to go home?
Pascal:There was a feeling of relief. We all try our best to make that happen as soon as possible. But since we have a plane brought down, we didn't be able to go there, as often as we would like to. And we've been assessed to new fire after that because there was really big traffic over there over the Patilseld Fire and the other fires. So that was managing to put us on the new fire response.
Pascal:But it was certainly a relief from all the crew to feel the the end of those day of tragedy for sure.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I bet. As you know, the c l four fifteen has been involved in firefighting in California for decades. What do you think this aircraft means to the communities it serves down there?
Pascal:I think the people in community over there, they they are really glad we're going there. It's a means of security for them, means another tool in the box for the firefighting operation over there. So that's what I think the the thing. And I think I tend to think the same way, another tool in the box, and that's good.
Bryan:Yeah. And I mean, from what you've said, it sounds like the CL four fifteen being purpose built for firefighting is putting a lot of water per hour on the fire. It's it's a great plane to have around.
Pascal:Yeah. To my mind, it's it's the best airplane or aircraft or best tool you can have for initial attack. But again, you have to use it as it was designed for, so which is initial attack. And after that, of course, you have more other tools to to help. You know, it's it's it's a big teamwork.
Pascal:You're gonna have to manage with that. So and you need to have all those tools in your box for sure to extinguish the the fires. So Right. Without any crew on the ground, you're not gonna be able to do nothing. And without aerial firefighting, you the crew on the ground will be in danger.
Pascal:So there's a really big teamwork for that.
Bryan:Right. Like, I I think we said that in the first episode that basically the idea is the aerial firefighters are containing the fire and keeping it under control and the people on the ground are actually putting it out. Right?
Pascal:Yep. Exactly.
Bryan:Yep. So the right tool at the right time.
Pascal:Yep.
Bryan:So as we've said, it's been more than a month now since the LA Fires were contained. I imagine it was somewhat of an emotional experience. You talked about seeing people trapped on rooftops, things like that. Have you thought about it? Have you been able to process it, or is it something you just sort of professionally maintain your separation from?
Pascal:I try to do separation from that, but for sure, sometime I'm I'm still thinking about it, about the the far the intensity of the experience there. I was just talking this morning with the other pilot who was in the plane when he hit the drone and was like lack of adrenaline for from his side when he get back after the Palisade fire and was like, what happening to me? So you try to keep your feelings away from that, but it's hard to do. So it's we still have some I would say maybe some stress or some fatigue from from that, And we just we are about to restart our new season. So but we have to put put that on the back of us and looking forward to next season, the next challenge we're gonna face off.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. It is challenging because when you go through these intense experiences, it takes time sometimes to process it and for it to rise to the surface. And you can realize months afterwards that, hey, I'm still carrying a bit of stress from this or I'm still feeling some pretty strong feelings from what I what I saw or things like that. So that must be difficult sometimes.
Pascal:Yeah. But so far, everybody everybody feels good. Good. So I can maybe I can talk to you in a in a few months of from from now, maybe something gonna show up. But so for now, far so good.
Pascal:Oh, good. I'm glad to hear it.
Bryan:What are the key lessons you've learned about risk management and decision making in high pressure aerial firefighting situations?
Pascal:The key to me, it's even if it's on the wayward, is slower is safer. So if you and it's gonna be faster as well. So if you go slower, you're gonna have time to see all the the threats, all the everything. So that's gonna be safer in a way, and it's gonna be more efficient. So sometime you have to step back and look at what you're gonna do and go forward after that.
Pascal:And after you have a plan, it is gonna be more efficient,
Bryan:so faster. You know, it's funny. That reminds me of a expression I used to hear in the military sometimes, especially if I was flying with Americans and it was slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Yeah. So basically, taking your time to do it right the first time is faster than rushing and making big mistakes.
Pascal:Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. When you heading to a drop, if you're not sure to drop to the right place or not sure it's gonna be the most efficient way to do it, you should say it, then you should try another way or manage something to get the water the right place.
Bryan:Yeah. And it's I imagine that's a crew effort as well. If anyone has concerns or if anyone has doubts, that's the time to speak up.
Pascal:Yeah. Exactly. And even with the Elko and everything, so just make sure the guys who is in charge of the operation know what you're gonna do and you know what's gonna what what you want you to do. So there's no mistakes makes, no danger involved for the crew on the ground or, you know, it's gonna be more efficient. So that's why that's why slow is good.
Bryan:Yeah. How dangerous is it for the crew on the ground if they get dropped on?
Pascal:The drop on, if it's not let's say the main part of the drop would be not really bad, but they can feel that's that's gonna be slippery. On Los Angeles, there's there's no really big tree except if you are kind of valley or something like that, so you can break a tree. But in Canada, you you can break a tree. Oh, yeah. A tree or something like that that can fall on the the firefighter underground.
Pascal:So for that that reason, the firefighter in Canada, they are farther from our dropping zone, dropping areas. So we're not really concerned about that because we we still are we still are concerned about that, but they're not supposed to be in the dropping area since in Los Angeles. They are closer from our dropping zones. So, but they are easier to see, so we can manage that safer. So that's that's that's one of concern, but it's not really, if you're not too low, it's not really dangerous.
Bryan:Yeah. It sounds like there's ways to mitigate it both in Los Angeles and in Quebec.
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan:Of course. What would you say was the most memorable moment for you while you were fighting these fires?
Pascal:The end of the first mission after the first two hour and a half. I was I was really satisfied about the the first mission at two hour and a half, and was quite a really good working with the helico in place from the helico in was really efficient for my mind. So, yeah, that was that was pretty good. And I think my the other crew on the other plane was taking the same ways. So, yeah, I think it would be the the end of the first two hour and a half.
Bryan:Yeah. Just knowing that you had a good system in place and that you guys were gonna be able to fight the fires with the help of the HELCO.
Pascal:Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, the say, the most efficient way we can we can do it on that fire. So we were protecting an area with, you know, people and home. So it was
Bryan:effective. Did you have any scary moments while fighting the fires?
Pascal:Not really because you don't have time to think about that, you know. So you just do your best you can do and you don't have time to think really. So you do your turn, you push a pedal, and you're heading back to the ocean. You do your best with the crosswind you have and scoop heading back to the dropping zone, drop and turn 40 degrees, 45 degrees, and then back to the ocean and do it again. So now you There's no time.
Pascal:I will not say any no. There's no time for for that. Maybe maybe after that, but not not during the flight.
Bryan:Did you find that there was some stress in between flights at all?
Pascal:Maybe there was stress with the when we on the second mission, we we had to go get water over the Castaic Lake, so that would make us crossing to Mountain Ridge. And with the wind we have that day was really bumpy. So after after the day when we spoke together, we we were kind of a stress with the the turbulence we get over there.
Bryan:Yeah. How intense was that turbulence?
Pascal:It was severe turbulence and, you know, we had the the caution line coming out for the engine, know, high pressure Oh, wow. Because the c l four fifteen is not is not authorized for negative g, so we can cannot do, like, atherotic flight with that. So there's no there's only one oil pump, so there's no there's no way to manage the negative g on the oil system. So they have moved to the blank of a master cushion for the oil pressure, but there was like maybe quarter or or something like that, just enough to trigger the master cushion and you are not able to see what's what's going on. So but it was happening maybe one out of two times crossing the the ridge.
Pascal:So we decided to go higher to cross the ridge to avoid that situation. But even higher was was really rough.
Bryan:So it was so rough that it was giving you guys negative g and that was tripping the oil pressure master caution?
Pascal:Yep. Wow. Yeah. That was as rough as that.
Bryan:That's pretty intense.
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. So we have a five points harness to be tied in the seat and everything everything was tied to the hips and Yeah. Try to stay in the seat.
Bryan:Yeah. No kidding. It's not fun getting thrown around like that.
Pascal:No. No. No. Not really. Not really.
Bryan:So it's likely these kinds of fires are going to become more common. What do you think needs to change in order to make communities more resilient in the face of this kind of event?
Pascal:Yeah. In my mind, it's gonna be maybe more often. I hope would be not like as bad as what we get last winter. But with what we saw in the season 02/23 in Canada and last winter in California, the water in the world would be looks like going drier and unstable. So that's gonna bring a situation like that.
Pascal:So I don't know what what to do with with that, like, just like everybody, I think.
Bryan:Yeah. It's a big question.
Pascal:Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty big. It's it's probably people should be ready to have a go away bag or something like that, you know, when when you are in the area in danger of that, like like in Los Angeles in the vicinity of a brush or wall terrains. So that would be the best the best way.
Pascal:Just try to keep yourself safe and your family. And I don't think there's nothing you can do against the element at the at the end. So you can do your best, but the element will win.
Bryan:Yeah. That's good advice though, to have a go bag ready to go if you're living in an area that's prone to forest fires or brush fires. That's a really good thought. Yeah. So let's talk about firefighting in Quebec.
Bryan:First of all, you've mentioned the twenty twenty two, twenty three season being pretty intense. Can you just tell us a little bit about that?
Pascal:Yeah. There was in Quebec, it was the biggest season we ever had. So and it was my first season as a chief pilot, so that was a really challenging season for me. And, yeah, we we almost every pilot in the service enquiry martial almost hit the the trigger of the the duty, hours duty, monthly hours.
Bryan:Oh, the maximum duty hours?
Pascal:Yeah. The maximum duty hours. So it never happened before. It happened with one group, but not with all the pilots. So that was challenging to try to manage that.
Pascal:And the fire was closed from from the city in Quebec. So this isn't we we are not used to in in Quebec. Normally, the fire happened quite a bit far of the from from the city. Sometime we have one fire from close by a city, but it's pretty rare that we have more than one. So but Anna 2023 was every fire was almost closed from a city reserve.
Pascal:So that was really intense. Does that
Bryan:just raise the stakes for you guys, or does it also make it more challenging?
Pascal:It was making more challenging, you know, to to be in the air and, you know, try to do our best. But sometimes, you know, it's frustrating when you see the fire there and you don't have the ability to go because your time x are for the day, you don't have crew, so you have plane on the ground. This is more on the management side, but there was the reality what we are facing on the 2023. So we have plane down from lack of crew. So that was pretty rough to manage that and try to make a move with the crew to put the plane back in the air, doing a training during the morning exam at, like, noon and doing the fire mission in the afternoon.
Pascal:Wow. So that was a really long day for the training department and everybody was involved with all of that, the management team. So it was a long day.
Bryan:Yeah. That sounds like long intense days.
Pascal:Yeah. It was.
Bryan:Yeah. The summer firefighting season is only a few months away. What will that look like for you and how are you preparing for what's ahead?
Pascal:Yeah. The it's it's almost there for sure. We start the training, like, pretty soon, next Friday. So there's lots of training to do. There's new hiring pilots.
Pascal:We're still looking for pilots, by the way, if somebody is wanna come. And yes. So it's gonna be training, training, training for the next, let's say, five, six week for us and check out from for the new hiring pilots. And after that, it's gonna be gonna be back in the in the preparation for the Los Angeles County. Yeah.
Pascal:So lots of training simulator in the in flights.
Bryan:Yeah. And then you do it all again?
Pascal:Yeah. And paperwork and deployment to Los Angeles again at the in the falls. And just cross finger, this is gonna be a slow season this year.
Bryan:Yeah. No kidding. Because you said, what, over a hundred days away as a aerial firefighter every year?
Pascal:Yeah. The the pilots normally do in Quebec, the the what what the guy is doing is around sixty five to seventy five days, out on the schedule of, fifteen days on, three days off. And after that, on top of that, you have to have the, one rotation in Los Angeles, which is almost thirty days. So it's closed by one hundred days per pilot out of the of home.
Bryan:Do people find that's tough on their family life?
Pascal:Yes. Yes. It certainly needs a good synergy in the with the family and with the kids for for body have kids and wife. Yeah. It's it's tough.
Pascal:Last winter was pretty tough for all all the pilot involved in the situation of Los Angeles for sure. Yeah. Because the season extend until the February, so that was really very long for them.
Bryan:Yeah. That is a long one.
Pascal:Yeah. I've done, I think, hundred and ten days in Los Angeles, last winter. So that was that was long. That's tough. And yeah.
Pascal:And it's it is on top of that, have to put the the days in Quebec out of out of home. So
Bryan:So how do you manage that with your family?
Pascal:Just try to don't have my doggy bag on the outside of the house when I get back, you know. So yeah. But what I doing, it's just try to be when I am home, I'm just trying to be with the family and try to don't work or don't think about work, which is pretty rough for me. Yeah. So because I'm still in management, so the the the phone ring all over the time.
Pascal:So that's pretty tough, but that's my goal. And just sometime we just go out in the forest and where there where there's no single and everything. So there's really family times.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Making sure you get that dedicated family time in when you're not working.
Pascal:Exactly. Exactly. Just go on a vacancy or something some some place outside without any phone.
Bryan:How do firefighting conditions differ in California and Quebec?
Pascal:Yeah. It is different. You know, the the way we get water over there, it's different. The territory is different with the mountain and the visitation. And the purpose of the the the way they use the the the four fifteen in Los Angeles and in Quebec is is different.
Pascal:So we're used as initial attack in Los Angeles than what we are in Quebec. Even if we're still in the initial attack in a attack in Quebec, with the bigger terrain to to protect is is different because sometimes you have to do an hour, an hour and a half to go to the the forest. So it's that's still initial attack. But since we don't have any enough base to protect all the all the region, so it's it's hard to to get there, let's say, like in Los Angeles in five, ten minutes, twenty minutes. So the goal is to be there in forty five minutes, but sometime it's not possible.
Bryan:Okay.
Pascal:Because there's no there's no airport somewhere. So gonna have to fly to go there and that that's it. So that's that's a different way to do it.
Bryan:What are the challenges specific to firefighting in Quebec?
Pascal:One of the challenge in when you get in the, June, the fire can go really deep in the, land. So you, you're gonna put water and water and water, and that's gonna affect the the fire you're gonna see, the open flames. But you go back for fuel and you and you're coming back to the incident, and you're gonna it's gonna be relighting because the wind was picking up or something like that and just hamper some somewhere some place on the roots and getting out. So that's one of the challenge for sure because with all the terrain we have to protect here, there's not enough firefighter in the ground. So sometimes you leave in every year and you say, oh, that's good.
Pascal:We we get we we've done a good job here and there's no no more fire here. You leave, you get at the base, fueled up, eat, and get a call over the same place because there's nobody in the ground. So you have to go back.
Bryan:That must be frustrating.
Pascal:It is. It is. But this part of the the big terrain to protect, you know.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure.
Pascal:Most likely is middle of nowhere. So there's no there's no issue for the the public safety or something like that. But it's still frustrating.
Bryan:Yeah. It's just a loss of forest. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, like you said, Quebec is huge.
Bryan:Right? So you can't expect like, there's only so many people, so many ground crews, and Quebec is enormous. So those are the things you're gonna run into.
Pascal:Exactly. Just like other provinces and, you know, BC is like that as well. You you cannot have people all over the place ready to fight the fire, so
Bryan:Yeah. Where is it easier to get water for firefighting and why?
Pascal:I would say on the lake for sure. On a big lake. So Quebec? Quebec Quebec is pretty good because we have really lots of lake. There's many, many lakes.
Pascal:So more lakes you have, more chance you you you have to have a good line on the one closer the incidents. So, yeah, I would say close by lots of water source.
Bryan:Overall, which theater is more challenging when it comes to firefighting, Los Angeles or Quebec, and why?
Pascal:Definitely more challenging to fight fire in the Los Angeles because it's middle of a city. There's a camera all over the place filming you with the, like, a chopper over the the TFR with a big camera zoom in zoom in on you so you have more pressure to don't miss the drop. And, yeah, so there's and it's middle of the just like the Palestinian fire was right in the neighborhoods, so with people on the ground. So it's definitely more challenging in in California.
Bryan:Okay. Alright. We're gonna wrap it up with a few final questions. Firefighting is emotionally and physically difficult. What is one thing you do to stay ready to do your job?
Pascal:Just try to have a good rest and, stay in shape. So, have a walk, running, or, anything you can can do to stay in shape. But the the main goal is have the good good rest, good sleep, and be ready for the next day.
Bryan:Yeah. I'm not surprised to hear that answer, especially with the nature of what you guys do. It's just you're going every day. Right? Or you're either going or you're on standby.
Bryan:So you pretty much have to be ready all the time. So rest would be crucial.
Pascal:Exactly. Exactly. Good food as well.
Bryan:Yeah. Do you have extensive experience in firefighting and flying in general? What do you think makes a great firefighting pilot?
Pascal:I think it's it's combination of knowledge, experience. You need to be pretty calm even if it's really stressful, you and you wanna rush the the thing, you wanna go fast, but you need to stay calm in that and, put the priority in a a good place, you know. So I think you you need to manage everything of that and, for sure, in beginning, be open minded to, learn the good way to do it. So, yeah, I think think about that. So knowledge and open mind to learning the way to do it.
Pascal:Because even if you're a good pilot on the something else we had a fighter jet pilot before coming here, and there was, like, oof, that's that's something. So, and I'm pretty sure I'm going on a fighter jet. I'm gonna be, oof, that's something. So, know, it's a specific job. So, you have even if you have a big experience on back of on your background, you have to stay open mind to, learn the way you you can do it safer and so yeah.
Pascal:That's about it.
Bryan:So arrive humble and ready to learn.
Pascal:Yep.
Bryan:Yep. If you were talking to a young pilot today who wanted to get into aerial firefighting, what advice would you give to them?
Pascal:Would give it to them. Be ready to be to leave home. Yeah. So be be be ready to be away from home. And that's a better job you can have in my mind.
Pascal:It's it's pretty good. It's challenging. So you have a sense of giving back to the community as well. So it's one of the best job in my mind, but it's certainly tough to get there. It's tough to get the experience to get there, but it's worth it.
Pascal:It's worth it. So Awesome.
Bryan:Okay, Pascal. That does it for our chat today on aerial firefighting and the fires in LA County. It was such a pleasure to hear your story, and thank you for the work you do and for being on the show.
Pascal:My pleasure. Thank you.
Bryan:Alright. Fly safe.
Pascal:Thank you.
Bryan:Alright. That wraps up our chat with Pascal Duclaud on aerial firefighting in LA and Quebec. For our next episode, we have a very special guest coming. We are proud to announce we will be interviewing lieutenant general Eric Kenny, current commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show?
Bryan:Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show? You can reach out to us at the pilot project podcast at Gmail dot com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts.
Bryan:That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.
