Episode 55: The Culture: The Evolution of Culture in the Canadian Armed Forces and flying the CH-146 Griffon Part 1 - Jeannot Boucher
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Bryan:Hey, everybody. It's your host, Brian Morrison here with our standard RCAF senior officer pre episode commentary. We live in a twenty four hour news cycle, and comments can be very quickly overtaken by events. So to put things in perspective, this interview was recorded in early January.
Intro/Outro:Fuel and ignition switches on RPM switches. Set TV switches. Normal doors and hatches.
Jeannot:Closed lay
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Intro/Outro:Start number two. Turning two. Wing three one zero ten. Pilot project broadcast. Clear takeoff.
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is the current chief of staff, chief professional conduct and culture, major general, Geno Boucher. Geno, welcome to the show and thanks so much for being here.
Jeannot:Thanks, Brian. I look forward to this.
Bryan:Yeah. I've been looking forward to it as well. So before we start, let's go over Geno's bio. Major general Geno Boucher joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 1992. He was at College Military Royal de Saint Jean from 1992 to '95.
Bryan:When it was closed, he moved to the Royal Military College of Canada, RMC Kingston, where he graduated in 1997 and obtained his pilot wings one year later. His postings include four three nine combat support squadron in Bagotville, Four Zero Three Helicopter Operational Training Squadron in Gaketown, Analyst within the vice chief of defense staff organization, four thirty tactical helicopter squadron where he deployed as operations officer and deputy commanding officer for Canadian helicopter force Afghanistan or CHFA in Afghanistan in 02/2009, faculty at the USAF Air Command and Staff College, executive assistant to the commander of the RCAF, chief of staff of first Canadian division, and director general within the chief of force development and chief professional conduct and culture. His command appointments include commander of four three zero tactical helicopter squadron in 02/2015, commander of one wing, two thousand sixteen to eighteen, interim commander of first Canadian division, two thousand eighteen to two thousand twenty, and commander of task force Jerusalem for Op Proteus, two thousand twenty to 02/2021. In January 2023, he was promoted to his current rank. He is currently the chief of staff, chief professional conduct and culture.
Bryan:Major general Boucher has accumulated over 3,000 flying hours in his career. He has a bachelor's degree in politics and economics and a master's in warfare studies from RMC Kingston, a master's in operational art and science from United States Air Force Air University, and is a graduate of the Air War College distance learning program. He enjoys all sports, has been happily married for over twenty years, and is the proud father of two amazing children. So, Juno, let's talk a bit about your sports background. You mentioned you enjoy all sports, especially hockey.
Bryan:Can you tell us more about your hockey career in CMR and RMC and how these experiences shaped you?
Jeannot:I wouldn't call it a hockey career, but yeah, did have the privilege of playing a college hockey in CMR and university college in RMC. I would say the experience basically forged my character. I learned so much about teamwork, about the importance of having a system that's tailored, I guess, to the strength and weakness of each of the members of the team and understanding your role within that system and within that team and making sure you're disciplined and accountable in executing that role. I also had the privilege of having an exceptional coach at RMC Jacques Tremblay which was the university coach of the year in 1996 I believe and he used to call the dressing room the school of life. So not only did we play hockey but we also learned a lot of life skills throughout that time.
Jeannot:I learned a lot by playing against people that were a lot better than me. So RMC being a very small school playing in the highly competitive university association, you're always playing with better people. So I came to understand that the best we can do is just use all the skills we have, work as hard as we can and just be the best team we can. I also learned the importance of using all your players. You have four lines if you're going to get through a season and be competitive the whole time.
Jeannot:You need everyone's contribution and everybody needs to be a leader within that team.
Bryan:For sure. Did you find that a lot of this translated over to your military life as well?
Jeannot:Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, basically all of it to me, I see life through hockey. So, so, so discipline, discipline, and basically competing for something greater than yourself. Like I just love the fact of being part of the team. Then when you're in the Canadian Armed Forces as a pilot or whatever trade you're in, know, one of the, you're there to serve your country.
Jeannot:So therefore your purpose every day is to serve something that's a lot bigger than yourself.
Bryan:For sure. So we've talked
Bryan:about your love for sports. What inspired your love for aviation?
Jeannot:That's a funny story. I was 16 years old in high school and quite honestly, we could have a day off of school if we went to visit CMR St. Jean. I basically went to visit the school that day and my parents were not very rich at the time. There were four children and throughout the day I realized I could study for free and when I visited the hockey rink, I realized I could play hockey for free.
Jeannot:I could have my gear and play at a very competitive level. My mom always laughed and said, when I came back that evening, I just said, that's where I'm going. And that's how I decided to, to join the military and aviation. So I'd actually never flown in my life and and really didn't know that much about aviation.
Bryan:That's too funny. Actually, you're not the first pilot I've spoken to before, not on this show, but friends of mine who joined the military. Like, a big motivator was, wow. I could play sports like a lot of the time here and get paid to do it.
Jeannot:Yeah. I mean, that was the main one. And and during that visit, like I met people and maybe unconsciously I realized like, wow, like teamwork is a huge part of this institution. Leadership is a huge part of this institution. And, you know, identity wise, like I could identify with the people that were there.
Jeannot:And as I said earlier, like I felt I would be part of something that's bigger than myself. I think deep down, I've always wanted to serve. I like before that visit, I wanted to be a teacher and I'm still passionate about teaching, which to me has translated into coaching. So I think without knowing it was a pretty important day in my life.
Bryan:And it's interesting that you enjoy teaching as well because that ends up being a big part of what you do as a pilot.
Jeannot:Well, exactly. I mean, as a pilot, I think every day you're learning, but you're also teaching like you're, you know, I, in my pilot career, I was obviously quite a bit, but I was an instructor, I was a standards, I was an instrument check pilot. I think in all those roles, I realized I loved and I wanted to do was have the chance to pass on some of that knowledge and and learn from just the amazing people and experienced people we have across our institution.
Bryan:For sure. So you mentioned that you didn't really know anything about aviation. What actually led you to choose pilot as your trade?
Jeannot:I went to the recruiting center and and and sat down with whoever was there at the time and thought that flying airplanes seemed cool honestly. And then my second choice, funny enough, was armored. Driving tanks seemed cool and then being an aerospace engineer was my third choice. So it was really attracted, I guess, by what I thought the experience would be of of of flying and being in the air.
Bryan:So really like right place, right time that they needed pilots at that time and that that was just something you thought, hey, I'll try that.
Jeannot:Yeah. And and to be quite honest, I think I would have joined regardless. I have so many friends in the military that joined to be pilots or other trades and things sometimes don't work out and they switch trades and they're still in thirty years later. They're super leaders. They're leading whether logistic infantry.
Jeannot:I mean, yeah, exceptional people join, I think you just need to be open minded and and and take every opportunity that's in front of you.
Bryan:%. There's a lot of really cool trades in the in the RCAF and within the Canadian Armed Forces as a whole. So let's talk a bit about your flight training. You did phase one on the CT one eleven Slingsby Firefly. Were you intimidated or excited to start your RCAF flight training?
Jeannot:I think I was both intimidated and excited quite honestly. As I said, my parents actually paid a hundred $99 plus tax. I think it was $115 to get me flying one hour because I'd never flown in my life before I went there. When I got there, was just an amazing summer. I learned so much and I was reflecting, preparing for this.
Jeannot:And I still remember e fateau engine failure after takeoff and zoom idle air start and then how you can like pick a landing spot and try to land if you lost your engine. So it was a great experience.
Bryan:Yeah. I didn't do phase one, but honestly, sometimes I wish I did. I hear so many people who had such a great time on that course. Like, I know it can be stressful. I know especially in your time that it was a selection course very much so to see who can make it and who can't.
Bryan:But I hear so many people say like that was one of the best summers of their life.
Jeannot:Yeah. And it's I think throughout pilot training, it's amazing. It's exciting, but it's also it's also humbling and hard in the sense you're tested every day. You need to learn at a pretty fast pace and deliver. So again, I think the experience was exceptional for everybody but as you said, unfortunately, think the failure rate was a little bit higher.
Jeannot:For some people, probably the experience wasn't as good.
Bryan:But those of you folks who made it through went on to phase two on the CT one fourteen tutor. By that time, the tutor was nearing replacement. What was it like flying the tutor as it neared the end of its life as a trainer?
Jeannot:Simply amazing. But but to me as a young I think I was probably 21. Like, as a young 21 year old there, all I could think is I'm flying the same aircraft as the Snowbird. So every day I'd get in there and I'd be so excited. I'm flying the same plane as the Snowbirds.
Jeannot:There's probably a lot of maintenance issues and all that going on. But to me at that time, that was very transparent to me. Like I get in the aircraft when it was available and go flying. So it was awesome.
Bryan:Yeah. The Tutor is such a legendary aircraft. I really think that like, I loved flying the Harvard two. It's such a sweet plane, but the chance to fly the tutor to fly a little jet is such a cool opportunity.
Jeannot:Yeah. Like, I that was my experience, but, yeah, like, I I feel pretty lucky I had the chance to do that.
Bryan:What would you say was the most challenging part of phase two?
Jeannot:You know, I thought about that. There's a lot of challenging parts. To me, I think was my I think it was my solo flight after ten hours, about ten hours or six or seven flights. But all I all I remember is my girlfriend flying down and with my instructor going on my pre solo and landing. And in the debriefing room, he's sitting with me and he's like, you're just giving me two options.
Jeannot:I either pass you. He says, I either fail you and I ruin your weekend because it was on a Friday or I pass you and I'm sitting nervously as you're in the air for the next hour or so. Then obviously he passed me and I went flying and it was amazing. All that to say that, as I said, flying training is demanding and you're learning. And even if the instructor tells you you're ready at times, I think you don't feel you're ready, but you are so.
Bryan:Well, that first solo is pretty nerve wracking. It doesn't like, I've had a few first solos. Like, I did my first solo on a glider back in air cadets and then I did my solo on a powered aircraft. But your first solo in a military aircraft that's high performance and more complex, there's a lot to that. It's pretty intimidating to go up by yourself and and go do that.
Jeannot:Yeah. And I think it, you know, there's such a difference between being a copilot and bearing an aircraft commander, as you said, going solo and being yourself, right? Like when you're with an instructor or with an aircraft commander, trust them and if you make a mistake, they're gonna be there to help you recover you. When you're on your own, you're on your own. I think it's necessary.
Jeannot:Such a very important step for personal growth and confidence but also obviously to kind of develop your skills and realize how serious it is. I mean, mistakes can have catastrophic consequences if you're if you don't if you're not cautious.
Bryan:Yeah. A %. So you went back to RMC and graduated and something that's pretty cool is you got your wings just one year after graduating from RMC and that was on the Bell two zero six. So was that typical at the time? And do you think we'll ever see timelines like that again in the RCAF?
Jeannot:Yeah. We were quite privileged. I graduated in May. I was in in Boozhaw right after and I think it was May to about March, so about eight or nine months. Then I got about a week and a half and I was in Portage on the Bell two zero six and got my wings in July.
Jeannot:So it took about fourteen months to get my wings. I went to my unit after and in September I was doing my operational training unit and was qualified by December. So yeah, obviously that was amazing. I know it's different today. I'm not sure we're going to get to those timelines.
Jeannot:I think we're trying to make it faster but I would just tell people take advantage of the time in between. You know, when everything is close, it seems awesome. You wish you had time between your courses. When you have too much time, obviously that's not better but there's a lot of things you can do and gain other types of experience, I guess, as you have some periods of time between your courses.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. I guess there's pros and cons to when it's very fast, like you can feel rushed and you don't get a break. If it's too slow, obviously, you feel like you're waiting forever, and that's not ideal either. And I guess you said I had thought you went back to RMC, but you actually did that all in one shot after RMC.
Jeannot:Yeah. Well, I did the Slingsby. So that 's I think that was summer ninety five. We kinda did phase one, but then phase two, three, and the OTU was all after graduation in May.
Bryan:Wow. And at that time, you got your wings on the Bell two zero six. Is that correct?
Jeannot:Yeah. I got my wing on the my wings on the bell two zero six at the three CFFTS in Portage in July 1998.
Bryan:What was your favorite part of phase three?
Jeannot:Phase three was amazing to me. Like, I think I've, you know, I I come from a small town and for whatever reason to me, like, I was excited to to fly low to the ground, be able to land anywhere. The two zero six instructors would tell you all you need to do is keep the skids clear from the ground. So we'd fly so low. Think with some of the experienced pilots, I'd put my legs in the air at times.
Jeannot:We were so close to the ground. And I'd also say for me, like hands and feet wise, flying a small helicopter, doing very tight confined areas. It was just, it was great. I felt I had, you know, I had selected or I had the opportunity to fly what I wanted, which was helicopters.
Bryan:Yeah. So helicopters were your first choice?
Jeannot:Yeah. They were my first choice the whole time. Obviously, in Moose Jaw, a lot of people have those conversations. Are you going halos? Are you going fixed wing?
Jeannot:Are you going jets? And we all have different personalities. I think it's important to kind of understand who we are, be true to who we are and then go for what we want to do. We're all different. Yeah,
Bryan:I totally agree. There's different types of people for each different platform and different people have different temperaments that are suited to various aircraft and usually hopefully it works out that they get on kind of where they belong and that the instructors get to know them and get to have an idea of like where they should end up.
Jeannot:Yeah. But some people change over their careers. Like I I stayed in tech aviation my whole career, but I have friends that started in tech aviation and moved on to fixed wing or to instructor and jets. But I also know fixed wing are, know, Herc pilots or C-seventeen pilots that came back to helicopters after seeking people that came to attack aviation. Again, like diversity of perspectives of experience just makes us richer.
Jeannot:So I think, you know, once again, like it's a privilege to fly to start with. So whatever you get, like go with an open mind and make the boast of it. But then at one point, if you feel you want to be challenged differently, obviously go for it and you'll be able to do it.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. In the Aurora community, it was, like, it was pretty rare that we would have an outsider to make their way into the Aurora community. But when we did, it was always interesting to hear their different perspectives just on how they did business differently, whether that was tactically within the aircraft or just in general organizationally. So I do agree that it's good for the air force to have people kind of cross pollinate in different communities.
Jeannot:I think we underestimate the importance and the and the, you know, the power of perspective, diversity of experience. And in a world that's increasingly complex, multifaceted, we need that. We need this culture where we're able to see things from multiple perspectives. We tend to fear the unknown or be cautious with the unknown as well. So as you said, every time somebody comes from a different community, we kind of we have more questions.
Jeannot:But as you said, once we get to know them, we're like, wow, they bring a lot of value to the team because they're bringing in a way of looking at things that we didn't have.
Bryan:For sure. And there can be a little bit of hesitancy at first when you're like, well, that's not how we do things. But sometimes the way they they're suggesting can be even better.
Jeannot:Absolutely.
Bryan:So looking back on this early flight training, did you have any especially moments during that time?
Jeannot:Of course, I did. I think we all do. I mean, flight training or a lot of the training is difficult. To me, I think it was more I was pretty good on clear hood. I was good on night flying.
Jeannot:So I was I was good on those things but I was more challenged myself on formation and navigation. If I think at phase two on the tutor, the formation phase, even if I thought I was pretty good, I think my instructors proved to me I wasn't as good as I thought on that. And on helicopters while I passed, but for the remainder of my career, navigation was something that, you know, I I would admit some people were much better at than I am. So we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and I think it's important to be, yeah, be aware of those.
Bryan:Well, those are two super challenging super fun, but super challenging phases of flight training too. Like, I really enjoyed form and I really enjoyed low level nav, but they're very difficult. It takes some some time to master those.
Jeannot:I've always enjoyed those. And even in helicopters that, like, we you can fly pretty tight at night on on on on Griffin helicopters. But again, like, if I'm if I'm honest with myself, there's some of my peers were a lot better at me than I was on that.
Bryan:Yeah. That's fair. So your first posting after you got your wings was to four three nine combat support squadron in Bagotville, Quebec. Was this your first choice?
Jeannot:No. It wasn't, actually. I was I wanted to go search and rescue the whole time, and I can't even really tell you why but I wanted to go search and rescue. I wanted to go to Trenton. I knew there was a spot there.
Jeannot:I actually had a retest on my last flight of the whole course. So I finished second on the course so my options became Gander for primary SAR in Baggettville which was combat support. After being away for a year and a half, being a couple of years in Kingston and away for a year and a half, I decided to be a bit closer to family and went to Baggettville in Quebec and kind of accepted the compromise I'll say of being in a unit that does secondary search and rescue.
Bryan:Yeah. That's that's kind of nice though. Sometimes you can make that compromise between like professional and personal goals because you can't always only favor just the career aspect of things or you won't have balance in your life. Right?
Jeannot:Well, to me, yeah, I think you're touching on it. Like there there's pros and cons to every option. And and and again, you need to think those through and then kind of be true to yourself and and and have an open mind. And to me, every experience along the way was was amazing because of that.
Bryan:What would you say was your biggest challenge when you arrived at four thirty nine? And did you feel prepared for the new job?
Jeannot:Well, to me, I think you fall in love with your first unit. So that that there was challenges, but I see them more in terms of opportunities. It was a small unit, 50 or 60 people. There was eight pilots. I think the challenge was I was the only lieutenant that showed up there.
Jeannot:So they were waiting for me. So all the secondary duties you can imagine were thrown at me. But when I look back, I say that was kind of an opportunity because I learned so many different things. And being the only young one with seven other experienced pilots was such that I was exposed to like different styles, different leadership, and also had tons of opportunities because, you know, those people had families. So whether it was nights, weekends or certain flights they wouldn't want to do, I would jump on everything.
Jeannot:So I think in the end, it was actually a huge opportunity.
Bryan:Yeah. That sounds like a pretty good go for, like, a young new pilot. Can you tell us a little more about what the squadron's role at the time was?
Jeannot:The squadron's role, like, it was called combat support squadron but basically we were doing search and rescue missions was the main thing we did. We actually operated with, I forget the name, I think it's two thousand nine hundred and five but we actually operated as per the primary search and rescue manual. So that's what we did most of the time and that's what we trained for.
Bryan:So you mentioned that four three nine works as combat support but also performs a role as secondary search and rescue and in fact that most of what you did was search and rescue. Can you tell us about any interesting SAR missions you conducted?
Jeannot:Yeah. Well, one comes to mind, which is a a, you know, a pilot, I guess, an older an older pilot that ended up in a whiteout about 200 miles north on a Friday. And we only got the call from his wife on the Monday. So Oh, wow. We did the search and we found the airplane on a small lake on the Monday.
Jeannot:And when we landed on that lake, we found that a grandfather in his sixties had been sitting there for three days beside the plane with broken legs.
Bryan:Oh my gosh.
Jeannot:Yeah. And we brought him back and he said how his grandchildren are the ones that kept him basically alive for those three days. So that's one example, but yeah, hugely rewarding. I would also like, you know, quick highlights, but major search and rescue, remember flying fifty hours over seven days or one mission up north of flying 12.4 in my logbook and an eighteen hour crew day to fly to get Sartex and fly all the way up to Gujarat. Finally, night flying in the North Of Quebec is just amazing.
Jeannot:And night boat work when you're inserting search and rescue technicians on hoists on ships at night, I don't think there's anything more challenging. So yeah, some amazing some amazing work in in the search and rescue world that that that our that our people do.
Bryan:That is some crazy flight time in short periods that you mentioned there. I just always like to highlight this for listeners that, you know, like in in my world, the Aurora world, okay, fifth fifty hours in a week is like is doable. It's busy, but it's doable. On a helicopter, that's crazy. That's a lot of flying time.
Jeannot:Yeah. We were searching for somebody around, I think in New Brunswick that had crashed in the winter. So we would get to the aircraft, it was still dark. We would get everything ready and take off when the sun would rise because it was January and it was really cold. And then we would basically do two full tanks of fuel so about 3.7, three point eight each and then we would land as the sun would come down and then we would start over again.
Jeannot:At first when they wanted to send me back after a week, said, No, no, I want to stay for two weeks. But after a week at that pace, I kind of took a bit of a break and and understood why.
Bryan:Yeah. I would think that'd be exhausting. Yeah. So in 02/2002, you were posted as an instructor to four zero three helicopter operational training squadron in Gaugetown, New Brunswick. At that time, you were hoping to go SAR.
Bryan:How did you feel about this change in direction, and what strategies did you use to make the best of it?
Jeannot:Yeah. Well, that that's a funny story because at that time, I really didn't wanna go there. And I was I was actually leaving Quebec as well, and I even I even pondered the idea of releasing and flying for the Quebec police. But I ended up going to 403 telling my wife we're going to try it out. When I arrived, there was a Major Gary Fleming.
Jeannot:And I remember him telling me, Hey, Jano, are you happy you're here? And I told him, No, I don't want to work with the army. I'll do one year here and I want to go search and rescue. And funny enough, think as we go through this interview, I ended up spending the rest of my career very close to the army. So the lesson I learned there is really go in with an open mind because I actually fell in love with tech aviation and with working closely to the army.
Bryan:Yeah. And that's something we say here all the time that you have to keep an open mind because eventually what's gonna make the difference between a great posting or a posting that you can't stand is gonna be your attitude and how you go into it.
Jeannot:Absolutely. I went in there with an open mind and and I think challenges become opportunities. And I also learned at four zero three, like the power of leadership. My commanding officer at the time was Lieutenant Colonel Alain Parin that became Lieutenant General Alain Parin. He took me aside at one point and kind of told me he felt I had potential.
Jeannot:Basically, made me feel like I was bringing value to the unit. He gave me purpose And, yeah, that was a pretty determining moment, I think, in my career. So I also learned that, you know, the power of the positive effect a good leader can have.
Bryan:Yeah. And that mentorship that you get from some people is just so key. The mentors that come into your life through your time in the air force, I think especially as a pilot where we have less formalized leadership training, I think the mentorship that we receive is absolutely the the defining factor in kind of what type of leader you become.
Jeannot:Yes. And and and for, you know, and and mentors and leaders, like, there's no rank and trade to that. Because to me, you know, I could name some mentors and leaders that were higher ranking, but there's so many mentors and leaders that were, were NCOs, technicians, logisticians, maintainers. Absolutely. People I work with that I learned a tremendous amount from.
Jeannot:And I would put a pitch in here for senior NCOs because again, as officers, as young officers in your career, I don't know if I can put in words the importance and the appreciation I have for our senior NCOs as mentors, as advisors, in the exceptional role they play to to to make us better leaders and better pilots.
Bryan:I couldn't agree more with that statement. I can think back to so many NCOs that mentored me, whether it was in technical aspects of the aircraft in on the Aurora, whether it was tactics and why we do what we do. And a lot of it was also in leadership. We had a lot of guys who were either just great leaders or had been ex combat arms and had learned a ton about leadership there because leadership is something that our combat arms do so well. I completely agree with that.
Jeannot:They teach us certain aspects again of discipline of doing the job. Like for us in tech aviation, you show up at a unit and you will have people again that were combat arms before that become air force technicians. They know how it works in the field. They'll teach you how to build your rock sack. They'll teach you the key things you need, the key skills you need to survive when you're deployed because some of them will have multiple deployments.
Jeannot:Again, like you get to know people, everybody has a story and kind of take off the ranks, take off the positions, get to know people, get to appreciate them and respect them for their knowledge and who they are.
Bryan:Oh, for sure. It's funny you say that. Definitely, our ex combat arms guys were the ones who made it so that all of us pilots had, like, a frag vest and tack vest and all that stuff that was actually well put together and ready to go in case actually needed them. Like, if it hadn't have been for those guys, we would have been a mess.
Jeannot:Absolutely. My son's a young lieutenant right now, armored lieutenant, and that's what I told him. I said, you you find the smart, the good, the experienced NCOs around the around you and you build a relationship with them. You respect them, you listen, and you learn. Right?
Bryan:For sure. So what would
Bryan:you say was the most fun part of instructing at four zero three Squadron?
Jeannot:To me, it's quite simple. It was just becoming a better pilot. You know, when you fly in unit and I did some operational missions and bad weather in four thirty nine, you think you're a good pilot, but when you have to become an instructor and teach it to others, I think you solidify your foundations. Through those years, got, like I said, to be an instructor pilot, a standards pilot, instrument check pilot, advanced NVG. When I left that unit, I really felt I was a competent pilot.
Bryan:So just that ability to kind of hone your skills and really hone your craft and become, I'll say I'll say a master almost of of getting these things nailed to, like, a really tight precision.
Jeannot:Yeah. Yes. And basically understanding why you're doing all all these things. Right? Because when I showed up at four thirty nine, people are very experienced pilots are just doing things.
Jeannot:But sometimes when you become an instructor, you have to go back and you have to read how the aircraft works, how all the systems work. I was also a maintenance test pilot. So there's so much aspects to learn working in the simulator on emergencies. So there's so many facets to flying that even, you know, I kept learning my whole career, but I would say after a few years at a school like that, you feel more confident, in your knowledge and then the solidity of your, your foundation.
Bryan:And you had a pretty good opportunity to solidify that because you have over 3,000 flying hours, which is pretty respectable for someone who climbed the ranks as well as for someone who flew helicopters. That's a lot of flying. You also kept qualified all the way up to and including your time as a wing commander. Why did you feel it was important to stay qualified as a pilot?
Jeannot:Well, first of all, following previous leaders, I mean, I get back to General Parag that had done the same thing. But to me, was about leading by example, first of all. Second of all is connecting with the people I lead. You have to kind of put yourself in their shoes and kind of build that connection to show them you're the wing commander but you're also a pilot. Finally, I would say understand their reality and the evolution, right?
Jeannot:Because by the time you're a wing commander, you're probably fifteen or twenty years from when you started flying. Technology evolves, the environment evolves, people evolve. So I think it's really important so you can actually understand their reality and then make your decisions are informed. And maybe finally, it's just to have fun too. Because I mean, as a wing commander, every time I was in the air was probably my quietest, calmest and and and just best time ever.
Bryan:A time to kind of get away and just focus back on the basics.
Jeannot:I'd have to do it. I'd often visit units and I'd fly at night or I'd fly early in the morning because I, you know, my day was still filled but still it was just the it just felt relaxing and fulfilling, I guess, to be in the air and and yeah, doing the job you you you love so much.
Bryan:I believe that for sure. What is the biggest lesson you've learned from spending so much time in the air?
Jeannot:There's quite a few, but the first one, I'll just say the the power of psychological safety and trust because for me helicopters it's a crew environment and everybody there whether it's your co pilot, your flight engineer, your door gunner, yeah you have so much to learn from them. Second part, I call them the five P's but I'll say proper preparation prevents poor performance. As a pilot, you really learn that you need to be prepared because every time you kind of cut corners or you try to do things quick, you will scare yourself and again the consequences can be quite dire so the importance of being well prepared and I would say the importance of trusting and enabling young people. As a pilot I learned that because as you get older you tend to wanna make sure they're good enough. But no, like, kind of reinforced to me trust young people because our young people are amazing.
Jeannot:And when you trust them, like, they take their job very seriously and they'll do exceptionally well.
Bryan:Yeah. I think when you do that, you empower people and you encourage them to perform at their best.
Jeannot:Yep.
Bryan:So during all this flying, you met your wife. How did you meet?
Jeannot:My wife was my high school sweetheart. So I think I met my wife and she was in grade six. I think I was probably in second grade 10 so we went out a little bit together at that time and then eventually I joined the military college and we always stayed in touch. When I ended up in Baggerville in 1998 she called me up one night and basically said she had moved back to her parents and was single. So we started dating at that time and we've kinda been together ever since.
Bryan:Oh, that's awesome. How did you manage to maintain a successful marriage with such an active flying career and eventually many command positions?
Jeannot:I mean, I I just I don't know. I I I feel lucky, but I think that the trick is really, like, figuring out what works for us, figuring out our own system. Me and my wife throughout this, you know, we moved probably over 10 times and we kind of agreed. She decided to probably put aside the idea of working to kind of follow and focus on the family. Kind of figuring out what worked for us was probably the key.
Jeannot:Obviously, compromise and communicate. You have to do that. And I would say probably quality over quantity. Quality of time with family over quantity because the quantity won't be there at times. You got to focus on the quality and probably never take it for granted.
Jeannot:Actions speak more than words so promising to your spouse a bunch of things is mildly entertaining but your actions are key to make sure that you keep the family first and you go through some of the challenges you're going face in that career.
Bryan:For sure. And with your spouse and with your kids too, it's so easy to say like, Oh, you know, I'm busy now but we'll do that later. And then it feels like, okay, I've pushed that down the road a bit and I'll get to it. And then it's really easy to keep doing that. So like you said, actions speak louder than words and when you say you're gonna do something, you do it.
Jeannot:Exactly. Life is about priorities, right? So at one point have to decide what your priorities are, but you have to act according to those or else again or else is just words.
Bryan:For sure. So I mentioned kids. When were your kids born during all this?
Jeannot:Yeah. So my my son was born in in February in Bagotville while I was at four three nine Squadron. And then when we moved to to Gaugetown, my daughter was born there in 02/2003. So Bagotville and Gaugetown.
Bryan:Okay. And did you take parental leave?
Jeannot:Yeah. I did. I did on both occasions. I took, I think six to eight weeks, but I think it's about six weeks. But to me, in both instances, basically, I spoke to the chain of command.
Jeannot:When I was four or three, my daughter was born in September and I wanted to take leave at the time and remember talking to the CEO that told me, Why don't you take it next summer? Because I planning to be course director and he says, It'll be a lot better if you take it in the summer than in the fall. Basically, that's what I did. So again, spoke with my wife, in the fall, was course director for a course until the spring. And then the following summer, managed to take six weeks.
Jeannot:And funny, funny anecdote, we went on a camping trip in a pop up trailer fourteen days moved seven times with an eight month old and a two and a half
Bryan:year old and had my
Jeannot:dad and brother-in-law betting I wouldn't make it but I but I did.
Bryan:And how did that go moving that many times with the young kids?
Jeannot:Well again, when you're young, you think you're quite ambitious with your plans. So so maybe if I do it again, I probably limit it to three or four moves in in fourteen days. But For sure. Still great memories nonetheless.
Bryan:So how did having kids change your career?
Jeannot:You spoke to it earlier, right? That that tension between professional and personal. So I think it just makes that surface more right. Like, you know, your your profession, your job is important, but obviously your family is incredibly important as well. So I think to me was define what success means for you.
Jeannot:To me, was obviously being close to my family and then deciding what I'm going to give the institution in terms of commitment and then kind of let you let that take you wherever it takes you.
Bryan:So basically, setting up your priorities and sticking to them and then sort of striking a balance with that as a guideline?
Jeannot:Yeah. Well, that's that's what worked for me because I said in the end, I don't wanna be chasing something because if I do that, I think I'll be prioritizing the wrong things. And to me, if I look back at my career again, we moved we moved over 10 times. My son was at his seventh school by by grade 10. Right?
Bryan:That's tough.
Jeannot:But we tried to make an opportunity every time we moved somewhere, we made a conscious effort to do something fun, know, to make it fun for the kids and say, hey, this is a new place. There's a lot of cool things to do. And again, that's how we got through it. But it's challenging. Moving is challenging especially as the kids get into high school.
Jeannot:It can be quite tough. I obviously deployed to Afghanistan and then I was in thirteen months deployed as well on Op Proteus. COVID, only came back for two weeks. Like, you know, there's challenging periods in there for sure.
Bryan:For sure. So we've kind
Bryan:of talked about your method for maintaining a balance between your career and family life. Do you think it's possible for both of those things to be an important priority in life at the same time?
Jeannot:Yes, I do. I absolutely do. As I said, I think you need to instead of being focused on the goal, I think I would focus on setting the conditions or understanding what you're willing to give. And to me again, evolved from being a young captain but to working nine hours a day to ten to maybe more now and deciding what I'm going to give on weekends or when I'm going to do my masters and those kinds of things and kind of giving what you're willing to give, protecting the family and just letting that bring you wherever that brings you. I think if you start chasing the carrots too much, you run the risk, guess of having some unintended consequences.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. You have to kind of set your goals, set your limits and then hopefully you can stick to those.
Jeannot:Absolutely.
Bryan:Okay. So we've talked a little bit about your early flying life. We've talked a bit about your family life. I'd like to move on now and talk about your time in Afghanistan. You deployed as the operations officer and deputy commanding officer for the Canadian helicopter forces in Afghanistan or CHFA in 02/2009.
Bryan:What were the conditions like at the time in Afghanistan?
Jeannot:Well, I deployed from April to November 2009. So it was the fighting season. I think it was quite a hard period where we lost quite a few Canadians and allies. I mean, the conditions working at CHFA for me as the ops and DCO, I would say we're probably working eighteen hours a day, seven days a week for the whole time, probably down to twelve to fourteen the last couple months because you get more efficient your job. But there were also quite a few periods of forty two hours in a row because you come in the morning, you work your day, there's a night aerosol so you're up all night and then you have to work the whole next day and then finally you get some sleep.
Jeannot:So Wow. But yeah, probably very, very, very challenging, very challenging and and very challenging summer.
Bryan:That sounds exhausting. And correct me if I'm wrong, 02/2009 was really, I think the peak of some of the fighting that happened in Afghanistan. Am I right with that?
Jeannot:Well, yeah, I think I think it was. I think every every deployment is unique and brings its own challenges. But yeah, definitely that summer I think was one of the high marks in terms of fighting. So we're extremely busy with a lot of quite complex night operations, night aerosols to try to clear some pretty some pretty strong areas.
Bryan:So what exactly was CHFA's role in Afghanistan?
Jeannot:So when we arrived there, there's quite a few roles, but one of them was convoy overwatch. So as convoys were getting hit on the roads quite a bit, so we would basically do overwatch. So fly over the convoys and make sure we're clearing all around them. That was, while not the most popular job, quite important because when helicopters were over convoys, they would not get hit. Moving people around with the Chinooks, we moved like thousands and thousands of people around.
Jeannot:So keeping Canadians and allies off the roads, responded to a lot of emergency air mission requests. So last minute requests were small, we're agile as Canadians. So we did that exceptionally well. And as I talked about aerosols and I can expand on those because I think those were probably some of the most challenging, but also professionally rewarding operations I personally was involved in in my career.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. Tell us about what an aerosol is and how that goes.
Jeannot:So major aerosols were normally we would insert upwards of 300 or 400 people at night to go clear a village over a four or five day period. So normally we would have UAVs doing a soak, we called it. So looking at the pattern of life for about three or four days prior, we would insert recce the night before to have eyes on and the night of we'd often be working with American Kiowa warriors that do the picketing of the landing zone. And then we would come in normally for Chinooks and for Griffins, sometimes all Canadian, often a mix of Canadian and UK in three different waves in the middle of the night inserting our troops there. Then for the following four or five days, we would resupply them every day and then extract them at the end.
Jeannot:Throughout those operations, had forward armed refueling points. We'd obviously to refuel at night with all those aircraft. So just exceptionally challenging but rewarding operations.
Bryan:Yeah, it sounds like something that would be hugely complex to manage.
Jeannot:Yes, hugely complex but again, we train exceptional pilots and aviators and soldiers. Right? So a lot of planning went into it. Some very detailed briefs and an extremely high level of professionalism.
Bryan:Would that be the kind of thing that would be covered during pre deployment training? Would you folks do practice runs of these like back in Canada before you left?
Jeannot:You know, it's quite a few years back, but I remember arriving at four thirty Squadron as the new operations officer there and going through 11 different exercises in four months getting ready. And at first, I thought it was too much, but I think it was necessary. When we arrived there, while it was intimidating, we were ready. So our training system is exceptionally good and when people and when we get in those environments, we are ready. Don't get me wrong.
Jeannot:Like the, you know, you're nervous the few first few weeks and you have to learn quickly and adapt but we are ready.
Bryan:Yeah. Did you do any flying while you were there?
Jeannot:Yeah. It was I got to fly, I think, a hundred and fifty hours in the seven months. So as the operations officer, not as much as others, but yes, I got to fly and participate in a mix of all the all the different all the different operations.
Bryan:I bet that helped too as far as, like, if you were only ever in headquarters kind of removed from everything, you wouldn't have the same perspective as if you were out on a few missions and kind of seeing what it's like on the ground.
Jeannot:Oh, absolutely. The conditions there were so challenging, especially at night. So flying there is really important to get a sense of what people are living every day. And I always laugh because I always think of the example when you're working in ops we're asking all the pilots to call wheels up, wheels down because we need to know where they're at. They forget and they always complain because they think it's a waste of time.
Jeannot:Then normally you bring them to work in ops for a week and when they see their peers not making the calls and they can't answer the questions and you send them back flying and they become really good at it. So we all benefit from working in ops, also obviously flying and making sure we all understand what each other do within a unit.
Bryan:Yeah. That kind of goes back to what we were saying before about that cross pollination of experience and and just getting different perspectives and mixing those in so you have a stronger overall picture. What would you say was the most significant challenges and rewards of this deployment?
Jeannot:To me, kind of the most tough toughest flying conditions of my career with the sand and at night, like, the darkest environment I've ever flown in. Leadership challenges and not in a negative fashion. Mean, you're on seven days a week pretty well, like sixteen hours a day, we'll say, but it's almost twenty fourseven. And rewarding to me supporting Canadian and allied brothers and sisters in arms. We really wanted to be there, share the risk, share the hardship and reduce their risk by taking on a little bit ourselves.
Jeannot:I think that's when I talk about mobility, convoy, escort or air assaults, that was our way, I think, to share some of that risk and really feel that we're we're really helping helping them out.
Bryan:Mhmm. And like you said, it's huge to keep Canadians and our allies off the roads as much as possible in Afghanistan because I I believe most of our casualties were roadside bombs.
Jeannot:Most of them were, but I would say for us, when I was there on nine on sixth July two thousand and nine, we had a we had a crash and we lost I I lost two of my colleagues there, Martin Joannette and Pat Odez. Learn some real lessons there again about the seriousness of what we do. So when I talk about the five P's and being prepared and being disciplined and taking your job, your craft seriously, it comes to reality because things can happen very quick. And in that case, obviously, two crew members survived but two passed away. So that really brought to life the concept of unlimited liability.
Jeannot:And the other aspect that summer, had ramp ceremonies. I think people are familiar at the end of the day when we lost some of our members. I think we were probably at ramp ceremonies four, five, six days a week for a period of time there. Canadians, Americans, British allies. So, it kind of brought the human cost of combat to life in a real manner for me.
Bryan:Did you find that going to those ramp ceremonies, losing colleagues, did you find that took a toll?
Jeannot:Yeah, it absolutely takes a toll. But one of my American colleagues following that deployment said, it's crazy what becomes normal. So the first two weeks you're there, you're nervous. And then I think it becomes normal and you become numb to it or you compartmentalize it because you need to deliver on the mission. And then I think when you get to the end and there's only two weeks left, then you start thinking about it again because you're like, I only have two weeks to go when I, you know, I like I wanna finish strong and and and be able to go home.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. What were
Bryan:the key lessons you learned from your deployment to Afghanistan and how did those lessons influence your later roles and responsibilities?
Jeannot:Well, to me, I mean, it brought teamwork and and I say psychological safety, but making sure there's trust within a team and cohesion to a whole new whole new level. To me, and this drove my philosophy, I guess for years to come, you have to master the fundamentals, whether you're a pilot, a maintainer, whatever trade, you have to master the fundamentals. Have to do that for yourself and to make the people around you on your left and on your right safe. You have to learn through experience like PowerPoint and discussions will only take you so far. Whenever you train, you got to find a way to learn through experience.
Jeannot:And then the importance of discipline and cohesion, All facets of discipline and to me obviously cohesion because the difference between a good and a great team is cohesion in my world. And while good enough, good is good enough in bureaucracy when you're in combat, good is sometimes not good enough and the price you pay for that is quite high. The last one is French to me but it's faire sans douziam and to me, you know, I spend time with the coach of Universite Laval Rougeteau football and for them, there's 12 players on the field. And in simple terms, it means the 12 have a clear role and have to be accountable to them for the team to succeed. And those are probably some of the key lessons I learned there.
Jeannot:And I have to get back to senior NCOs because I learned that earlier in my career, but that became so true there. My ops weren't there. Again, I just can't say enough about the incredible importance of of of NCOs in making sure we have the aircraft on the line, the ops center is running, just every facet of it.
Bryan:Well, I think that's something that is true if you read through any kind of military history that especially Western militaries rely on a strong core of seasoned, experienced NCOs, and they're kind of the people who train the junior NCMs. They're the people who, like we talked about, give us junior officers, you know, help us point us in the right direction and keep us out of trouble. They're the ones who keep the military going almost.
Jeannot:I've said it many times in my career for people that know me, have the best. We have the best non commissioned officers. We have the best NCMs in the world. We do in Canada, and we should be proud of that. And we should continue developing them and evolving, you know, evolving because the world evolves.
Jeannot:But we have the best in the world, and and we should be proud of that.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. So we've talked a lot about your family. How did your family deal with you deploying to Afghanistan?
Jeannot:I think they were stoic about it but nervous but I I was privileged. I think I had tremendous support from my parents. At the time my daughter was six, my son was nine. So when I left, my son realized what was going on and when I called, he didn't want to talk to me, it was too hard. That was hard on me.
Jeannot:My daughter didn't realize what was going on when I left but then when I came for HLTA and left again, then she understood what was going on. That was a bit of the family dynamic and I would say the last one coming back was an adjustment after being high adrenaline, high pace for seven months, coming back and adjusting to a young family where you say we're going leave at nine and they're not ready to go. I had to work on myself to kind of get back to normal.
Bryan:Did you find when you came back that your family had kind of adjusted to being without you and now there had to be an adjustment period where you had to ease back into their routine?
Jeannot:Yes, there was for sure. But I think again, feel so privileged. Like, I mean, my wife was so amazing and the kids. So there was that period, but yeah, it was clearly on me not to invade their space, but it was more me that was I went out of I was out of balance. Right.
Jeannot:I was like too focused. Everything had to click again. Was a bit of a I was a bit of a time freak. Everything needed to happen Mhmm. When I thought it should happen.
Jeannot:Everything was planned out and then so I needed to kind of step back from that.
Bryan:But that makes sense. Right? Like, you had just spent seven months in Afghanistan where that kind of stuff was life and death. Like, it's not like this was coming out of nowhere and you were just high strung. Like, this was stuff that for you for the last seven months, the penalty for not getting this stuff right could be somebody getting killed.
Bryan:So it makes sense that it takes some time to adjust.
Jeannot:Yeah. And the other piece is that people can't and should not be able to understand what you live there. When you come back again, if you talk to your military peers, you can understand but if you're trying like you know family is curious, friends are curious, they want to know but you realize, you know, you you talk to them, but you realize that they don't truly understand and they can't. And watching the news will give you, you know, some pieces of the story, but it's not always a % accurate.
Bryan:That's a privilege, though, that Canadians by and large can't understand what it's like to be in a combat zone or can't understand what it means that, oh, if you make a mistake, somebody could die. Like, that's a good thing that most people can't understand what that's like.
Jeannot:We live in the best country in the world. I mean, we're we're yeah. We're safe. We have resources. We have great people.
Jeannot:We're educated. So when yes. We need to protect that. And that's what our military is there for.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. I agree completely. So we talked a bit about how your family handled your deployment. What supports were available at that time compared to now for people who deployed?
Jeannot:Well, I mean, we had the family resource center, guess is what I have in mind when I say that but obviously I was in Valkyatsee, the base I think was good. The family resource center was good. The unit at the time, obviously we were deployed quite a bit during that period so members of the unit would always be available for the family. There were phones in Afghanistan so I could call home probably ten or fifteen minutes in the evening. It wasn't always perfect.
Jeannot:There was no FaceTime. You can really see each other. So I think we have more support today than we've ever had and we should. It's necessary. It's important.
Jeannot:But I think there's a lot more support today. We've learned a lot from those years and I'd like to think we're a lot better at making sure our families are supported because those are challenging periods, very challenging periods for families.
Bryan:You mentioned phones. How much access did you have in terms of being able to call home?
Jeannot:It was a trailer with, I don't know, eight or 10 phones in there, but because of my working hours, I never had a problem. I think I'd get back to my room at ten or eleven at night. So, you know, it was mid afternoon back home. So I'd call for ten or fifteen minutes and go. But but I think we were good.
Jeannot:Like we had access. We could call home. That wasn't an issue.
Bryan:Not too bad. So not one of those situations where like 30 people are sharing one sat phone or something like that?
Jeannot:No. I think that was a few years before me, but no. I think we were by that time, I was mainly in Kandahar. But I you know, I'm sure I have colleagues when when the army was in platoon houses or forward operating bases, I'm sure they didn't have the same luxury we had on Kandahar.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. I know that was something that really surprised us when we went to Kuwait for OpImpact. We didn't know what to expect in terms of being able to call home, but we had access to Wi Fi. There was free phones to use.
Bryan:It was really good. Like, we were surprised by how easy it was to stay in touch with our our loved ones at home.
Jeannot:Yeah. It's evolved. I mean, when I when I deployed on Op Produce for thirteen months, then with FaceTime, at least it makes a huge difference when you can see the person. Back when you come back, like after Afghanistan coming back on HLTA was weird. Like you haven't seen each other physically in three or four months or even longer.
Jeannot:But now because of the the technology we have, I think it makes it better.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. Okay, Janelle, that's gonna wrap up part one of our chat on your career. I wanna thank you so much for your time today and I'm really looking forward to getting together with you again. Thanks so much for your time today and we'll talk to you for the next one.
Jeannot:Thanks, Brian. Thanks for listening.
Bryan:Alright. That wraps up part one of our chat with lieutenant general, General Boucher, chief of staff, chief professional conduct and culture on his early career, including his time in Afghanistan. For our next episode, we will talk about his early command roles, his time as commander of task force Jerusalem in support of op Proteus in the West Bank, as well as his work developing our North strong and free. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.
Intro/Outro:Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.
