Episode 56: The Culture: The Evolution of Culture in the Canadian Armed Forces and flying the CH-146 Griffon Part 2 - Jeannot Boucher
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Bryan:Hey, everybody. It's your host, Brian Morrison here with our standard RCAF senior officer pre episode commentary. We live in a twenty four hour news cycle, and comments can be very quickly overtaken by events. So to put things in perspective, this interview was recorded in early January.
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Jeannot:Closed lay
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. Today, we're back for part two of our chat with Janneau Boucher, current chief of staff, chief professional conduct and culture. Janneau, welcome back, and thanks for being here today.
Jeannot:Hey. Thanks, Brian. I'm happy to be back.
Bryan:Listeners can check out part one to hear about Geno's early days as well as his time in Afghanistan. Today, we'll be talking about some of his early command roles, his time as commander of task force Jerusalem in support of Op Proteus in the West Bank, as well as his work developing our North strong and free. So we're gonna move into talking now about some of your command appointments in international roles. How did your flight training and operational experiences prepare you for command in the RCAF?
Jeannot:I talked about it earlier a bit. I think discipline, like the five p's, the the importance of preparation, the like, discipline and how you approach. That was was huge. My understanding of teamwork and the importance of trust and making sure everybody has an important role in the team, probably the importance of balancing theory with experience. Like Afghanistan, you can be in Ottawa and I'm in Ottawa now and think you understand, but the people that are actually living it are the ones that really understand and we need to just find that sweet spot.
Jeannot:It's in the middle but it's probably leaning on the side of experience more than theory and I would say humility. Like my flight training, failure during flight training, mistakes on operations, all these things made me, I like to think humble and appreciate the challenge and the responsibility of command. And I learned that leadership was not about being the smartest person at the unit. It was about making everybody around me better and surrounding myself with with smart people.
Bryan:Yeah. I like that. I also like what you said about kind of finding that balance between the boots on the ground perspective and the Ottawa perspective because they're both definitely important. Like, if it was all the theory, we all know that theory is great until it meets real world. Right?
Bryan:Like that whole that whole thing about no plan survives first contact with the enemy. But at the same time, if all you're going with is the boots on the ground perspective, you lose the big picture and you might miss out on some of the kind of greater significant stuff that'll kind of pass you right by. So I like that.
Jeannot:Yeah. And I'll tell you my time in Afghanistan working with Ottawa as we were figuring it out, it was so many lessons learned there on the concept of risk. Because when you're flying in Canada and you're training, you know, it's normal. There's a certain level of risk, but you have to balance that airworthiness risk with operational risk. So when you're landing in a landing zone in Afghanistan where you can't stay on the ground for more than one minute and you have to take off with 40 troops in the back of a Chinook, you can't wait for them to have all their seat belts.
Jeannot:So the idea of having a seat belt is a safety concern, but you have to balance that with the real life operational risks. And though that's a really key lesson I learned there.
Bryan:Well, you're basically balancing the risk of a seat belt versus an RPG or small arms or something like that, right?
Jeannot:But to people in Ottawa that have not flown there yet, them they see, you know, they hear a story that people are taking off without seat belts, which is not inaccurate. But again, we just need, I would just tell people again, whatever you decide in life or in a staff job, just try to make sure you're you're always going that extra mile and making sure you're talking to people that are actually doing the job and understand their perspective.
Bryan:So you were the commanding officer or a CO of four thirty tactical helicopter squadron from 02/2013 to 02/2015. How did it feel to be taking command of an operational tac health squadron, and did you feel prepared?
Jeannot:Well, was amazing. I think commanding officer or that level is like the best job of your career. I think you apply everything you learn to date with a team of about, you know, in the air force two or 300 a bit bitter on the army, but it's the size of a team you can get to to know everybody. So I was I was a bit nervous, but I was kind of excited. And and honestly, I yeah.
Jeannot:I feel I I feel I was prepared, but there's always a steep learning curve every time you move up in rank or every time you take command at a different level.
Bryan:What was the greatest challenge you faced while in command of four thirty Squadron?
Jeannot:It was one of experience and a focus on rebuilding. I didn't expect that. When I deployed in 02/2009, we had an extremely experienced unit. I went back to be the CO four years later. The level of experience was quite low and we were rebuilding.
Jeannot:So I learned that every command has its own unique challenges. You kind of need to listen, you need to care, you need to try to understand and you need to kind of focus on the challenge you have, which was to me rebuilding the unit, rebuilding the experience. And at that time we were also shifting from Afghanistan to a return to conventional operations, we haven't hadn't done or trained in several years.
Bryan:So what led to that situation that there was a need to rebuild? Have there just been a bunch of people who had retired or people had been promoted out or what had led to that?
Jeannot:Several things, but there was a point where there's a certain age group where we had less pilots in the CAF combined with the fact there's a lot of people when they came back from Afghanistan, like it was hard for them to get motivated after you've gone through that level of training, that experience, that flying. There's quite a few people that released at the time. Several of them came back after but I was in a period of time where the numbers were lower, the experience level was lower. You had a lot of very junior people, you still had a lot of experience at the major lieutenant colonel level but kinda your senior captains were were were few.
Bryan:Okay. That makes sense. What was the biggest lesson you learned from your time as a CO?
Jeannot:I think as a CO, it's again the importance of kind of the diversity of perspectives because then you're at the stage where you're actually making decisions. You have pilots, you understand the pilot stuff quite well, but logistics, maintenance, the whole admin piece. I had like 75 reservists there. So yeah, I kind of learned the importance of that. The second one I learned was like, I think the importance of setting conditions because when you get to that level of being commanding officer, it's about setting conditions.
Jeannot:Sometimes the impact of your leadership or what you're doing will only be felt in the next two or three years. So we are at a level right now where you're not always going to get kind of an instant reward or return for what you're doing. You kind of live with what the previous CEO put in place and you set the conditions for your successor, if that makes sense.
Bryan:Yeah. So you're saying that basically you're sort of setting things up to be your vision of where the squadron needs to go, but it's going to take some time for those conditions to actually bear fruit and for that to actually happen with the squadron.
Jeannot:Yeah. In our case, we're moving back to conventional warfare. So again, different, different flying, different type of operations. And then you're rebuilding your young air crew with that mindset. And you know, as a pilot, takes a year or two before then you become an aircraft commander and a section lead.
Jeannot:So it takes a few years to see if you've done the right thing and if things will pay off.
Bryan:How difficult was that coming back and basically having trained for asymmetric warfare in Afghanistan to face more of an insurgency type threat and then pivoting to train for conventional warfare? That sounds like a huge change.
Jeannot:It was. And I had to lean a lot on on my reservists because four thirty were quite privileged, I had about 200 Regforce people, but 75 reservists, a lot of them very experienced. So I had to lean on them to understand how they used to do things in the 80s and 90s and then kind of distill those key lessons and instill those obviously with the new mindset, with the new technology and the new way we do things. That's how we got there. But again, people are amazing.
Jeannot:You get out the old doctrine, you kind of challenge your junior leaders with it, you let them go and what they come up with is amazing. So when we did those maple resolve out in Wainwright or Rafael Blanche in Quebec City there in 2015, I was just amazed by people. We were talking about combat arms people earlier. Those combat arms people had those basic skills, that strong foundation that we could use in order to kind of protect our forward arm refueling point or protect our camp when we're deployed in the field with our helicopters.
Bryan:It still sounds like a massive challenge, but it sounds like you had some really good resources to work with.
Jeannot:You never have enough resources, but it's about making no, but you don't. But it's always about making the most of what you have. And that's another lesson as well. Like, you will never have enough resources. You'll never have everything you need, but like true leaders make the most of what they have.
Jeannot:It doesn't mean you don't inform or be very vocal about what you need but there's a difference between being vocal and not doing anything and being vocal about what you need but really maximizing the impact you have with the resources you have.
Bryan:Oh, for sure. And if there's one thing I learned in my time in the military, you'll never have the ideal setup. You'll never have exactly the ideal equipment, exactly the ideal amount of people. It's just the nature of the business. We're trying to do a lot of things and you have what you have and then you go and make it work.
Jeannot:You know, we deployed to Afghanistan with the Griffin and and and we came up with the concept of door gunners. But in an insurgency warfare, having door guns M134s on both sides with experienced army guys as door gunners and flight engineers, we were hugely effective in the role we did there. You know, some leaders would have said we can't deploy, we don't have the right aircraft as Canadians, we decided to deploy and we really, really had an impact I'm quite proud of for the period of time we were there.
Bryan:Yeah, that's honestly the Griffon in Afghanistan is the perfect example of what I was saying. Like, it's an aircraft that many people would say, well, it was gonna face significant challenges just given the altitude that Afghanistan is at and the temperatures and just the the limits of what the Griffin can do. But from what I've heard, the Griffin was extremely capable in the way that we employed it and was, again, from what I've heard, quite feared by the Taliban.
Jeannot:Yes. I I I think it was. And and again, we tend to focus on platforms a lot a lot and don't focus as much on the quality of our pilots. When we got there, it was only other country special forces that flew in what they call black illum when it was too dark. We showed up as Canadians.
Jeannot:We're used to flying low. We're used to flying when it's really dark. We started operating at a period of time where some other conventional forces were not. So therefore we were highly in demand. I mean, the competence we talked about of our NCOs, of our maintainers were such, I think we had 100% serviceability the whole time.
Jeannot:So again, if we focus on developing amazing people, then they'll do amazing things with technology we have. Once again, we need to get the right things, and we'll probably talk about that later.
Bryan:Oh, for sure. Your time as a wing commander was spent in command of one wing from 02/2016 to 02/2018, putting you at the head of tactical helicopter aviation. How did you feel your time in Afghanistan and as the CEO of four thirty Squadron had prepared you for this position?
Jeannot:I think it I think it well, the time in Afghanistan in 04/30 definitely helped. Like, I understood the wing and then that was obviously that was obviously quite good. But I took over on very short notice on June notice because of very kind of challenging circumstances and I was only 40 at the time so I was quite young. And I remember like the day I took over, the commander of the division was there to oversee the parade and asked me if he could have my office because commander of the air force wanted to talk to him. Then we were supposed to talk to our commanding officers in the afternoon.
Jeannot:And when he came out of there, he says, he brought me in the office and told me the commander of the air force just asked him to make sure we were looking and going to be ready to deploy to Mali. At the time we were already taken over for four twenty seven Squadron in Erbil, Iraq. And then I was asked how we could even support Mali at the same time. So that afternoon meeting kind of became my initial commander's intent and my family was moving our house at the time. And I remember being in a hotel room right in my DNG to my COs so we could start planning how we were going to do that.
Bryan:Sorry, what's a DNG?
Jeannot:Direction and guidance and intent. So basically me sitting there and talking to my wing leadership to say, for this to work, we're going to go into herbal Iraq and do it this way. And we're going to prepare to go to Mali this way. But then, you know, then once again, just trust our amazing people to figure out the how.
Bryan:And as we're talking about this, we're talking a lot about tac aviation. We're talking about one wing. Can you just quickly explain what one wing is and kind of what the role is?
Jeannot:Yeah. One Wing, we call it tactical aviation, but it's basically what a lot of other countries call army aviation. But instead of being part of the army, we're part of the air force. And our key roles are recce, mobility, and firepower. And that's what we bring, I guess, to the army and to everything we do.
Jeannot:In Canada, we're part of the air force, also quite agile. So we obviously play a utility role within the country or outside the country for disaster assistance, non combatant evacuation, floods, fires, and things like that. But the primary role of tactical aviation is recce mobility and firepower in support of the army.
Bryan:Right. And then one wing being the the head of tactical aviation.
Jeannot:Yeah. So the commander one wing is the senior tactical aviator and and and sits at army council with the the Canadian army as the aviation adviser to the commander of the army.
Bryan:And while speaking of that, as you've said, part of your role as one wing commander was sitting in the Canadian Army Council with the commander of the army and all the divisional commanders. Can you explain your role on this council and how it felt to be a representative of the air force in an army setting?
Jeannot:Yeah. So army council is basically chaired by the commander of the army. He's got all his division commanders and senior army leadership, and they discuss and decide on the future of the army. It's quite a true privilege to sit on that council. I got to sit on it for four years, two years as a wing commander, two years as commander of first Candive headquarters.
Jeannot:So you meet about four or five times a year. It's just an amazing learning experience because the, you know, the the army treats you like one of theirs and they give you full access. So it's
Intro/Outro:tremendous
Jeannot:learning experience, but also build relationships that served me for the remainder of my career.
Bryan:What would you say was the biggest area you experienced growth in as a result of that position?
Jeannot:The risk is sounding a bit repetitive, but together we're stronger like we are. And then, you know, we had lived through the Afghanistan days, but it's, you know, we talked earlier about cross pollination. So bringing an Air Force perspective to the Army, but also understanding the Army and really respecting the challenge they have. So to me, like diversity of thought and perspective is just hugely powerful and necessary in the world we live in. I think again, all parts of the CAF are amazing and sometimes we don't know the other parts and I don't think we appreciate them enough.
Jeannot:The more we can work jointly or collectively and get to know each other, the more that trust and respect builds. And I guess the more effective we are as a as a CAF where whatever job we do.
Bryan:You mentioned they're getting to know the different parts of the CAF. What was the biggest thing that you came appreciate when working with the army? Like, what did you really appreciate about them?
Jeannot:I I just think it's it's their reality and and their challenges. Right? Like, I mean, the army is the army is really about people. I think we're all about people, but the army is the army is really about people. At the time, I think it was well led, well trained, well equipped was the model they were using.
Jeannot:But again, it's just really about leadership. When we talk about unlimited liability, I mean, you can do any operation you want, but at one point, if you're going to control an area of operations or whatever, you need boots on the ground. So again, I think I already had a very high level of respect because of the time in Afghanistan, but that just helped me understand some of the greater details.
Bryan:You mentioned unlimited liability. Can you explain that?
Jeannot:Well, basically, a CAF member, you can be put in harm's way to the point, I guess, of losing your life in order to achieve the mission. And I think again, it's already been fifteen years, so I assume some young people were not part of that, but we definitely went through that in Afghanistan. Then when we're moving back to conventional operations, it raises that thinking to a whole new level because the types of operations you're talking about, we wouldn't be losing just a couple people any given day or any given week. You're talking about casualties at a much higher level.
Bryan:In a conventional war, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's something for sure, like watching the fighting in Ukraine and thinking about the casualty levels that are being suffered there.
Bryan:I mean, it's in the hundreds of thousands at this point. You put that into perspective for sure of the kinds of casualties that Canada or one of our allies would suffer in a conventional war. It's it's hard to picture.
Jeannot:We talk about ethics and values. Right? We have three principles and five values but our three principles are respect the dignity of all people and respecting the dignity of all people is obviously all our CAF members but I would say up to the enemy. I mean like fighting a war is not a cool thing, right? Like cool is not the word that comes to mind.
Jeannot:The second one is obey lawful authority. So again, you can be told to do something. When we talk about unlimited liability, I mean, you can be put in the face of harm. And the third one is like serve your country before self. And and I think as CAF members, those those principles really ring true to me.
Bryan:Mhmm. For sure. So your next position was chief of staff of First Canadian division. So when I first heard this, you actually had to clarify with me because I thought it was the First Canadian Air division, which is here in Winnipeg. But, no, this is a joint division, and I think you were potentially the first air force member to be in command of it.
Bryan:So what special challenges did you face as an air force officer commanding first Canadian division?
Jeannot:Yeah. First Canadian division's a yeah. Joint division commanded by a two star, and there's the the the chief of staff operations as an air force colonel, and then the chief of of staff support is an army colonel. When I arrived there is when NATO Mission Iraq started, so the commander got sent there. Then at the time, Commander CJOG General Hulo appointed me as the interim commander, which ended up being for a period of eighteen or twenty months.
Jeannot:I think the biggest challenge, I was one of several division commanders under the Allied Rapid Reaction Corps. So we train with that NATO Corps led by a three star. So me going on exercises or even some of the trips with basically all army two stars, Italy, Poland, UK, Americans and just being an air force colonel there was quite intimidating. And that's where I learned or reinforced a very important lesson of surrounding yourself with very smart people. Jim Davis, Colonel Jim Davis was an Army Reserve colonel with extensive experience and he kind of became, I would say, one of my key advisors to kind of help me bridge my knowledge gap.
Bryan:So you mentioned sorry. A rapid reaction force. Is that the term?
Jeannot:Rapid reaction core.
Bryan:Okay.
Jeannot:NATO has the allied rapid reaction core and that's in The UK and it's commanded by UK Three star there. We train. So there's a UK division, there's an American division and there's a UK, American And Canadian Division. And then there's other people, but it's basically a function of training and getting ready in the event NATO would have to deploy at that level. But a core is obviously like a very big formation.
Bryan:How many people are in a core?
Jeannot:Upwards of a hundred thousand.
Bryan:Oh, wow. That's crazy. Yeah. That must have been kind of intimidating to be working on that level.
Jeannot:It was, but again, it it's kind of a learning experience. People are People are patient if you work hard and you learn, I guess you learn every step of the way and you ask lots of questions. I think people react well if you're genuine and authentic. Working really hard, reading, asking questions to understand, and being prepared. Right?
Jeannot:Like, at least in an exercise, you can always be prepared. So I I worked through it and it was a hugely rewarding experience.
Bryan:Back to the first Canadian division, did you find that your time in Afghanistan gave you some buy in from army folks?
Jeannot:Yeah. For sure. I mean, the basic trust was there, as you said, from the Afghanistan days as well as sitting at army councils. So, yeah, I had that trust going into the division obviously as a new member there. Obviously army guys look at you because culturally we're different, The way we lead is different.
Jeannot:I had comments of people telling me, You know, at first we thought that was kind of weird, but we got to understand your style and we really like it. So again, it was a fascinating experience for me to kind of gain that trust from army officers that look at you a little bit like the Not the outsider, but obviously somebody that comes in with a different style and a different perspective.
Bryan:Well, I mean, it is a big change, right? Like I said, potentially, obviously we'd have to look and double check, but potentially the first air force member to be in command of the division. A big change for the people who work for that division to have an air force member in charge.
Jeannot:Yeah. Well, for them, I mean, it's it's a you know, they wanna be ready for operations. They wanna be led effectively. I remember my whole old hockey coach teaching in his school of life that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And to me, I've always tried to use that approach, which is really genuinely care about people and again, a relationship with them and kind of be vulnerable.
Jeannot:So if you're making mistakes, you're admitting them but you're getting up and you keep fighting right away. Like you don't get to complain, you just get up and then you learn and you show them that you're learning every step of the way. I think when you do that, you kind of gain respect. And then obviously after a few months, I mean, we're all professional officers so we get to understand the job. We all have blind spots.
Jeannot:We all have strengths and weaknesses. But again, if you surround yourself with the right people, you trust and enable the right people, it's the team that delivers, right? I mean, the leader is there to give intent and D and G but it's actually the people that deliver.
Bryan:For sure. And that's a lesson that goes all the way down to even junior leaders. When you think about an aircraft commander, for example, I'll use my world as an example because that's what I know. But on the Aurora, you're surrounding yourself with systems experts. You're surrounding yourself with people who are operating the sensors and trusting all the inputs that they're giving you and you use all that information to form a picture and make decisions and without them, you're lost.
Jeannot:The air force has evolved a lot in decades. Right? It involve evolved from a time where you probably had about a crash a week to to a time where we probably have sometimes not even one a year. Why? Because, you know, the the concept of flight safety and just culture, that concept of balancing safety and accountability in a non punitive fashion, we've created this culture where when we see something that's not right, we speak up but we also have a culture where we're receptive and we're looking to learn because we know we need to learn as a team because once again, the consequences of certain mistakes can be significant and I think that's something quite special the Air Force has that's been guiding some of the current work I'm doing in the culture space.
Bryan:So did you find you needed to adapt your leadership style when working with mostly army personnel versus the air force?
Jeannot:Yes, I did. But but I think you adapt your leadership style. I I have adapted my leadership style between 04:30, between one wing with first kind of headquarters without proteus like you. I still am in CPCC. So to me, again, it's really trying to get a sense of what the culture is, where you're at, and then fitting into that culture, understanding it.
Jeannot:But then you can start nudging it in the direction you want. There's probably aspects you feel should be done a different way. But I think the first step is understanding and respecting what's going on because there's a reason and then you can try to shape it from there. So that's the approach I took to that division. And again, I think it was mutually beneficial.
Jeannot:I think the division is probably slightly different, hopefully in a good sense after I left, but I'm also slightly different and hope and convinced a better leader after after spending two years there.
Bryan:Mhmm. That makes sense. And so almost less to do with the fact that it was an army unit versus an air force unit, more to do with the fact that with any group of people, you're gonna need to adjust how you're leading and sort of adjust yourself to their needs.
Jeannot:It's a joint division, but a lot of people on the outside said, yeah, it's Jarmy, right? It's joint, but it's army, which is not untrue. But at the same time, I mean, is there anything nowadays that is not joint or that should not be joint combined, right? Like Mhmm. With the world is so complex now and interconnected that I think, it's not even a choice anymore.
Jeannot:I think we need to be joint from the start.
Bryan:Right. And and just for our listeners, we're using the term joint a lot. That just means joint means you're working with different elements. So whether that's army, navy, air force, some combination of those together.
Jeannot:Yeah. Joint and combined means we're working with other countries. So again, in the world we live in now, think, yeah, join combined. I think we need to be able to work with all other pieces of our CAF defense team and even I would say later on industry and the rest of Canada. And then obviously, to keep developing our ability to work with our allies and our partners across the world.
Bryan:Yeah, absolutely. So we're gonna talk about a really interesting position you held, which is commander of task force Jerusalem as part of Op Proteus. So broadly speaking, what is the mission of Op Proteus?
Jeannot:So Op Proteus is part of The United States security coordination mission, which is which is basically coordinating security between the Palestinian Authority and the West Bank and the Israeli Defense Forces. It's commanded by a three star US General that reports directly to the Secretary of State and there's a one star British and a one star Canadian general underneath that. And we work with a lot of different partners as well in the area. The main focus is to provide training advice to the Palestinian Authority security forces. So we go out there, we help develop their operations center, how to run operations.
Jeannot:Basically, we go there and we train them. We help them develop better systems for their logistics because they provide mainly food but they provide in uniforms but they do that across all of the West Bank and we work to professionalize their security sector minister of interior. So it's a fascinating mission that's really multifaceted and and quite complex.
Bryan:And just to be clear, when you say Palestinian security forces, we're not talking about Israeli defense forces. We're talking about these are Palestinians?
Jeannot:Yeah. The Palestinian authority has some control over specific areas in the West Bank, mainly Area A. And then there's Area B, which is kind of a shared area, if you want, Area C that belongs to Israel. But which I don't want to get to, I might have gotten backwards there. The Palestinian Authority, which is security forces, they provide kind of that policing, that customs, that logistics for the areas where they have authority and freedom of movement to do that.
Bryan:Okay. That makes sense. So what was the Canadian role and why was the Canadian presence there important?
Jeannot:We've been there for quite a few quite a few years. And I think our the key role we have there as Canadians, we have unique access. So access to their prime minister, to their governors, to their security chiefs, and even refugee camp leaders in the population. So we go around and as the commander there, I get the chance to talk to all those people to kind of understand their needs so we can help them, I guess, develop those security forces. We're also there to kind of encourage the dialogue and the security coordination between them and the Israeli Defense Forces.
Jeannot:So I would meet the Israeli area commanders as well. So again, just making sure again that communication which is not easy is happening and the population is safe. The big piece in the end is to maintain stability as obviously the two sides negotiate an eventual agreement.
Bryan:Okay. So almost sounds to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds to me like it's an extension of Canada's tradition of peacekeeping and that not not that we're doing actual peacekeeping in that mission, but you're kind of the go between to help maintain a peaceful situation.
Jeannot:Yeah. That that's that's kind of what role is. We show up there quite a diverse team. There was a small team, about 26 of us, quite a few Reg Force people, so Army, Navy, Air Force, but we also had our CMP. I think now they have some customs and border services personnel there as well.
Jeannot:And we also had like locally engaged staff, so Palestinians, drivers, translators, cultural advisors. And again, it's really about talking to the Palestinian Authority, talking to Israelis and making sure the needs are mutually understood and that again, the kinds of equipment they would need, I guess, to provide security services are available. And as I said, as well as train them on the how to conduct the police role, the customs role or just general security and refugee camps and in more complex areas.
Bryan:That sounds like a really complicated task.
Jeannot:It's a real complex environment. I mean, the task itself, you just need to realize you're not gonna you can't go in there with a mindset that you're going to fix it. So again, what they want is basically feel heard, feel respected and know that you're kind of making their needs be heard. But yeah, I spent a lot of time with a think tank called the PASIA and and an older past Palestinian gentleman who basically said that was the major league. It doesn't get more complex than that area of the world for multiple reasons.
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. I believe that. What was your overall experience during this deployment?
Jeannot:Like, I qualified as amazing and humbling. Left there though hoping I could do more. I'm very much a people person. So I think going there again, what's always amazing to me is is the people. As I alluded to earlier, it's kind of probably the most complex place in the world.
Jeannot:You can't fix everything. But I was there with them for thirteen months, six or seven days a week, got to spend time with their families, picking olives in Hebron with elders. Just really understanding their situation and trying to help in any way we can to make them have normal of a life as possible once again while this very complex situation gets eventually hopefully gets resolved.
Bryan:It sounds like a very humbling experience.
Jeannot:Yeah it is. I've used the term I think I felt inadequate every day because you go in, you listen, you understand, you kind of know what you can do, but you can't. So you kind of feel inadequate and they are so generous because simply being heard, being understood for them means the world. So they thank you so much. You kinda you feel you feel inadequate, but at the same time, it it it makes you respect, you know, just those normal people that are just trying to have a normal life all that much more.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. You received a chief of defense staff commendation as part of this deployment. What specifically do you think earned you that commendation and how did it feel to receive it?
Jeannot:To me, like, when I get awards like that, to me, I'm just proud of the team. I just feel I'm representing the team because, again, we were like I was there, but I mean, the whole team, like 20 some people were there continuously for seven months trying to make a difference. Call that commanders contingency fund like funding small projects, vehicles, operations center material for their kitchens so they can actually feed their soldiers. So collectively, we just we made a difference for them. And I think that that accommodation was a reflection of the exceptional work of the team.
Bryan:Were you able to hand out any of your own accommodations to your team?
Jeannot:I did. And honestly, when you're deployed that long with people like thirteen months during COVID, so we were very limited in our movement. Well, we were able to go in the West Bank every day anyways, but when we were back in Jerusalem, our movement was limited. So my point, I think, is I would have liked to give accommodation or one to every member of the team, but quite a few people got it. A young logistician captain or lieutenant navy got a CDS commendation because of all the commanders contingency fund.
Jeannot:But what we did do is also have Palestinian security forces, their national security forces and their logistics give awards to our Canadian members. So our Lieutenant Colonel or Majors that will be with them seven days a week helping them develop, they got awards from the Palestinians. So we tried to use that mechanism as well and and and put a special touch on their incredible efforts.
Bryan:Oh, that's really cool. I think it's so important to recognize people for their work. And I think sometimes it's something that we struggle to do adequately. I I think partly just because people are so busy doing their job that it can be hard to step back and be like, hey, let's recognize this. Let's recognize that.
Jeannot:I agree. You know, it's it's always it's it's always a matter of balance in life. So again, if we if we give commendations or formal recognition to everybody, it's gonna dilute it at the same time if we're not giving enough people don't feel recognized. But there's many ways to recognize people. And I think, again, there's those formal mechanisms for bigger accomplishments, but we should not shy away from recognizing in various ways timely when we can.
Jeannot:But that being said, you're right. Like if we're serious about taking care of people, need to take the time and those people up and make sure they are recognized.
Bryan:What do you think was the most rewarding experience you had during your time on the West Bank?
Jeannot:The most rewarding moment I think came when the tensions rose between Gaza and Israel during that period. I had special access, as I said, to a lot of the refugee camps and the Palestinians. And at that time, was able to report with my team, report up to the coordinator. So therefore up to probably the Secretary of State and a lot of senior leaders, British, Canadian and others. They were really reading and using, I guess, what we were providing them, which was kind of the unfiltered thoughts or information that was transmitted to me and my team because of the special access we had.
Bryan:Okay. That sounds pretty cool. The next role you served in was director general capability and structure integration within the chief of force development. Can you tell us what this role involved? Because it is a bit of a mouthful.
Jeannot:It is and probably the role is as well, but in very short and hopefully simple terms, it's to evolve from replacing what we have with the same thing. For instance, we have a helicopter, replace with a helicopter, we have a tank, we replace to a tank. To looking at the future and trying to understand what capabilities will be required and which ones will bring most values to Canadian allies and develop the best advice possible for the Chief of Defence staff to inform the minister and government on what our needs are gonna be in the future.
Bryan:So basically looking at sort of either capability gaps or future needs, whether that's equipment that's becoming too aged or places that we need certain equipment that we don't have and then advising the chief defense staff on the best course forward and either acquiring that or what the best options are for that?
Jeannot:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, in in in more technical terms, we talk about the future operating environment and its implications. So what's the future going to look like?
Jeannot:And obviously it's Five Eyes experts that think hard at that and say, what are the implications? And from there you deduct, we call them concept required capabilities, but what are the capabilities or the high value war fighting roles we're going to play? And we war game that with our allies. So again, we try to look in the future, we war game it. And then from there we say these are the things we're going to need.
Jeannot:And then between allies we talk and that kind of informs what we should be buying or procuring for the future.
Bryan:Okay, that makes sense. And you mentioned Five Eyes. Can you just quickly explain what Five Eyes is?
Jeannot:Yeah, Five Eyes is a small community. So obviously probably our closest ally are The United States as people know. But when you talk about Five Eyes, that's United States, UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.
Bryan:Awesome. So during this time, you helped develop Our North Strong and Free, a defense policy update, which was published in April 2024. What role did you play in developing this?
Jeannot:Well, at the time, ended up be I was the acting chief of force development. So I ended up being kind of the key representative, if you want, of the vice chief of defense staff and the chief of defense staff on the capabilities that we need to be included in that defense policy update. My partner Raquel Garbers, I work very closely with ADM policy, so Assistant Deputy Minister Policy was dependent on that and there were a few other team members involved in that. So that small team was probably leading that work over several months to try to once again kind of clearly define the geopolitical environment and therefore ensure we include in the policy the key capabilities we need, we know we need. And then the language explorer is used in there which means there's other areas where we think we need that, we just need to explore and confirm exactly what we need.
Jeannot:Obviously, there was a lot of people involved in there, treasury board, finance, our own costers internally that played a heavy role in getting us to the final product.
Bryan:Was that a difficult task? It sounds pretty intricate. There's a lot of moving pieces. Like how hard of a task was this?
Jeannot:I think it was a it was a very challenging task because you're trying to to to harmonize, synchronize, coordinate, I guess, the needs of an entire institution. While we want to buy new capabilities, new platforms, shiny stuff, we have to think about the infrastructure, the ammo, just all the other pieces that come with it. And obviously, you need to make choices because resources are limited. So it leads to very difficult conversations and that explains why these while we can produce a draft in a few months, it takes several months after just to make sure it's socialized with ministers, with cabinet, with everybody and to get to the point where a government is comfortable publishing it.
Bryan:What are a couple key points in the defense policy update that you worked on?
Jeannot:Like, my my main piece in it, I I I think, was obviously on the capabilities. But when I read it and I see the words ready, relevant and resilient, I think, you know, we went through a lot of iterations of placemats to kind of look at what capabilities we needed in what order. And I think coming up with those words to help people visualize, we need to be ready. The key thing is we need to be ready as a CAF to serve Canada when the call comes. Obviously, need to be relevant with allies.
Jeannot:We talked about Five Eyes and our partners. We need to be relevant. If we go somewhere, we need to be relevant. And the whole resiliency piece, which people are hearing about. I mean, the world is unstable in many areas and how can we be more resilient as a CAF, but as a nation.
Bryan:So you mentioned relevancy when it comes to our allies and operating with our allies. Can you give me some examples of what that looks like?
Jeannot:So relevance has to do with all the pieces. So we need the right pieces of equipment. But if you're talking like communicating between ourselves and with allies, so we need the right equipment to communicate at the right security level. We need the right logistics support to move our assets where it needs to be. We need to have the ammo for our own assets.
Jeannot:So I would say probably self sustaining. We're moving into a world where where you move back to conventional operations where I think as a Canadian Armed Forces, need to be able to self sustain. To be relevant, sometimes we talk about contribution warfare. We can send some pieces, but if we want to be relevant in this world, we need to be able to be self sustaining in the sense that we bring the right capabilities, but we can also do the logistics and all the support piece that comes behind it.
Bryan:Okay. And would that also have to do with, for example, you know, bringing an f 35 to the fight versus bringing an f 18 and those types of things in terms of relevancy, like the the generation of fighters we're bringing, the the capabilities those have in terms of communications?
Jeannot:Yeah. Well, I mean, things are things are quickly evolving. And I would say the battlefield as we're seeing in Ukraine is increasingly lethal. So, you know, we need to be able to to bring capabilities forward, but make sure that those capabilities are effective and are safe. So again, obviously, if you're talking about F-thirty five and fifth generation fighter, well, I mean, the fighter is a piece of it, but there's a whole piece in terms of communications, intelligence, infrastructure, and everything else that comes with it.
Jeannot:And that is that is the relevance piece, but that also speaks to the resilience piece.
Bryan:Can you tell me about some new capabilities that may come to be as a result of the defense policy update?
Jeannot:Yeah. Well, I would like, I encourage, like, people to go and and have a quick look at, you know, our north strong and free the up the the policy and quickly go through it. It'll give you a good sense. But, obviously, there's pieces there for families, for housing, those kinds of things. In terms of pure capabilities, there's a focus on how we're going to be able to sustain our equipment, on ammunition, on space capabilities to include SATCOM, tactical helicopters, cyber submarines, airborne early warning, which should be exciting to a lot of air force people.
Bryan:For sure.
Jeannot:Long range land missiles and there's also, as I spoke earlier, like exploring integrated air and missile defense, ground based air defense, modern artillery or main battle tanks and drones. It's worth having a look because I think the policy reflects quite well the work I talked earlier about, about trying to look into the future and identify the kinds of capabilities we need.
Bryan:Yeah, as that whole director general capability instructor integration, like that whole role of looking into the future and trying to identify what it is we're going to need.
Jeannot:And the people as well, right? Like when you read the policy or if you're following right now, there's a talk. We need to obviously fill our current ranks. But, you know, there's a there's an acknowledgment we're going to need to grow. If we bring in all these capabilities, we need new people and we need, you know, different people, like the right kind of people to to be able to operate those those new capabilities.
Bryan:For sure. And I noticed you mentioned ground based air defense. I know that must make a lot of the army types out there excited because I know there was a lot of people who didn't like it when we got rid of that capability. So that would be huge.
Jeannot:No. Absolutely. As we move back yeah. Sometimes we divest the capabilities. But again, as as as the environment evolves, there's a clear need for some of these things.
Jeannot:So you're right. Those are critical critical capabilities.
Bryan:Well, for sure. And we got rid of that during Afghanistan where there was no air threat. And now we're looking at, as you said, conventional warfare where there would be an air threat. And there's threats from not just conventional aircraft, but drones. So it'd be very interesting to see how that develops.
Jeannot:Absolutely.
Bryan:Okay, Janelle. That's gonna wrap up our chat for today. I just wanna thank you so much for your time. I know you're a very busy guy. Thank you so much for being on the show, and we will talk to you for the next one.
Jeannot:Thanks, Brian.
Bryan:Okay. That wraps up part two of our chat with Geno Boucher, current chief of staff, chief professional conduct and culture. For our next episode, we'll be sitting down for our final part with Geno, where we get into the topic of his current position as well as a larger discussion on culture change within the Canadian Armed Forces. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard
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