Episode 57: The Culture: The Evolution of Culture in the Canadian Armed Forces and flying the CH-146 Griffon Part 3 - Jeannot Boucher
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Bryan:Hey, everybody. It's your host, Brian Morrison here with our standard RCAF senior officer pre episode commentary. We live in a twenty four hour news cycle, and comments can be very quickly overtaken by events. So to put things in perspective, this interview was recorded in early January.
Intro:Fuel and ignition switches on RPM switches. Set TV switches. Normal doors and hatches.
Jeannot:Closed lay
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Intro:Turning two. Wing three one zero ten. Pilot project broadcast. Clear takeoff. Runway three one left.
Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Skies Magazine. Today, we are back for part three of our chat with Geno Boucher, current chief of staff, chief professional conduct and culture. Geno, welcome back, and thanks for being here today.
Jeannot:Hey. Thanks, Brian. I'm happy to be back.
Bryan:Listeners can check out part one for a discussion on his early career as well as his deployment to Afghanistan. They can check out part two for a talk about his early command roles as well as his time commanding task force Jerusalem in support of Op Proteus in the West Bank as well as his involvement with the development of Our North Strong and Free. For today's discussion, we'll be getting into the topic of culture change as well as his current position as chief of staff, chief professional conduct and culture. Okay. So we're gonna move into really kind of the meat of this discussion, which is talking about diversity and culture change within the Canadian Armed Forces.
Bryan:But before we dive into some of the work you've done in this area, let's clear the air a little. We've discussed this before with colonel Coots, but some people get really upset when the topic of culture change comes up. What would you say to them to get them on board?
Jeannot:Well, to me, say if we wanna build strong teams and win, we need everybody to be at its best on the team. That that in essence is what it is. Right? Like, I mean, we have a certain number of people, they need to be at their best. And I talked about this, I think on the previous podcast, but maybe in bureaucracy, good is good enough, but in war, like good is not good enough.
Jeannot:We need great teams and that can only happen through cohesion and cohesion, what I've learned in this work is you know you need both psychological safety and accountability. So it's not about reducing standards and reducing accountability, it's making people psychologically safe to speak up to bring their best selves to work, but obviously holding them to account to very high standards. That's how we're going to achieve the the level we need in order to be effective in operations.
Bryan:Can you explain what you mean when you talk about psychological safety?
Jeannot:Psychological safety in essence is just that trust, that feeling of belonging that that makes you feel like you can speak up and that you'll be heard, you'll be considered in the decisions that happen. So when somebody feels psychologically safe and flight safety is the best example. I mean, if you're flying in a crew and you see something that you think is potentially wrong or dangerous and you don't speak up, obviously you're not helping the team. When we talk about psychological safety in our work environment every day, if we see something that we think is inappropriate or that we should improve, we should speak up. And if we create the right environment where people feel psychologically safe, they will speak up.
Bryan:And so essentially, I really like that you tied that back into flight safety program. The flight safety program works to make an environment where people feel psychologically safe in terms of speaking up about seeing something wrong or preventing something from happening.
Jeannot:Yeah. And flight safety is meant to be preventive, not punitive in nature. So if something wrong happens, we take for assumption that nobody meant to do anything wrong. Right? So what do we do?
Jeannot:We investigate with a view of learning and making our operations more effective, safer for everybody. So what we're trying to do in the culture space is very much similar. It's a bit it's different and it's harder, right? It's more closer to people's mind, but like at the root of it, we're trying to do the same thing in the culture space.
Bryan:So another thing I think is important as we move forward here is to define a few terms. Can you define diversity, equity and inclusion for us broadly speaking?
Jeannot:I'll make a quick caveat as we go through this whole next hour. But again, these are complex questions. I'll answer my best but I will make mistakes. I probably will. So again, but I'll do my best.
Jeannot:So diversity to me is again like diversity to me is more than the visible diversity, the ethnic differences or the color differences. Diversity of thought, diversity of perspectives. To me, when you talk about diversity, we all have different experiences. We need to bring those experiences in for the good of the team. When we talk about equity, it's about eliminating barriers or creating equal opportunity.
Jeannot:I mean, there's a lot of ways to do that, but one maybe simple example I heard talking to a friend is a few years ago and I think somebody coming from one of the territories to have to write an aptitudes test and the aptitude test has to do with traffic lights and elevators. So when you bring somebody that's never actually been exposed to traffic lights and elevators and you're judging his merit or his opportunities based on that, it's not equitable. So there's many examples there, but it's just about really understanding people and making sure we're not losing out on amazing talent and amazing people because of barriers we've put in place that we don't even we're not even aware of. And inclusion is about diversity. Even if you bring a bunch of different people in a room, it doesn't mean you're being inclusive.
Jeannot:Being inclusive means they feel they belong, they feel they can speak up and they feel again that their perspective is valued. So maybe a trick but every time you're running a meeting people tend to like we'll introduce people at table, there's people back benching around and they're not presented. So when you start a meeting, have people present themselves so everybody feels that they're part of the meeting and they can speak up and they feel so they feel included. So hopefully that helps but diversity, equity and inclusion in very simple terms.
Bryan:And it sounds to me like that last term inclusion is really closely tied to that concept of psychological safety.
Jeannot:Yeah, absolutely. I think it's both, right? Psychological safety and that sense of belonging when you talk at culture again, how do we get everybody to kind of have a sense of belonging? Because once you feel you belong, you care. And again, if you feel psychologically safe, then obviously you're gonna speak up and then the team will be better, more effective because we're gonna have that that that different input that that added value.
Bryan:%. So obviously, as we've said, we're gonna talk a lot about diversity, inclusion, equity, and even eliminating racism in the CAF, all of which are projects you've worked on. Again, these are terms that some people get quite sensitive about. Why are they important in a war fighting organization and why should they be a top priority?
Jeannot:To me, because wherever we're gonna compete or fight, like, I wanna win. We need to win. The best we can do is make sure everybody brings their best selves and can make, you know, the greatest contribution they can to the team. So like, who wouldn't want that? Like, who want people who wouldn't want people to get up in the morning and say, I wanna go to work.
Jeannot:I wanna work hard. I wanna be part of this team and I wanna make sure we win. That's what we wanna do. And consciously or unconsciously, at times, we're behaving in ways or we're saying things in ways that are kind of impeding that.
Bryan:What would you say to people who think that the modern military is being made soft by these efforts?
Jeannot:I believe deep down in what we're doing and anyone that's played hockey with me or been with me in operations, I think would not qualify me as soft. So I think everybody feeling respected and that they they belong is a good thing and again, will work us towards a great team. I talked about this later but again, in sports, you lose the game. It's not such a bad thing. On military operations, we talked on the previous one about Afghanistan.
Jeannot:I mean, the consequences or the liability is unlimited. So we owe it to ourselves to to to to bring our the most the most the strongest and the most effective team together.
Bryan:Yeah. I totally agree with that. I'm a big believer that the more diverse our team, the more different opinions, different experiences that we can bring in and build, I feel like it helps us to cover more contingencies. People have will think of different things. They'll they'll have different ways of doing things, and it just builds overall a stronger a stronger team.
Jeannot:When I when I when I deployed to Afghanistan and I got told to put together the ops center because we didn't have one, you know, we were limited on pilots. We needed all the pilots, attack aviators to fly and be qualified. So I got told you're going to put together an ops center and brought in some navigate some seeking navigators, some air traffic controllers, some med techs, basically a wide range of background to work in operations in an army in an operation center that would be working with the army. I won't lie when that happened, I was like, my God, what are you asking me? But when I look back, that's the best thing that ever happened.
Jeannot:Air traffic controllers are used to working with on emergencies. They're used to running control centers. Navigators on Sea Kings that live on ships, they can provide you advice on how to run 24 shifts because they work twenty four hour shifts all the time. So all that to say that all these people came with a baggage and once they bought in, we train them. I mean, the team in the end was probably well, was not probably was better than if we put 10 tack aviators in there.
Bryan:Yeah. That makes sense to me for sure.
Jeannot:And that's counterintuitive. Some of the stuff we're doing now might be counterintuitive, but when you think it through and you look at it closer, it becomes quite obvious.
Bryan:Yeah. I mean, like I said, to me, it's just something that you think about it and it's pretty obvious that the more differing experiences we bring in, the stronger team we'll build. Yep. So you were director general culture change within the chief professional conduct and culture or CPCC from January 2023 to August 2024. As part of this, you led the development of the Department of Defense Culture Evolution Strategy.
Bryan:What were the goals and key elements of this strategy?
Jeannot:I'm gonna try to keep keep this interesting. I won't say simple, but I like not boring in the sense of but but in essence, I think we are and we had started dealing with incidents. So if serious incidents are happening, we're reacting, we're dealing with them. We are updating policies. But we came to the conclusion we can deal and be reactive and we can update policies.
Jeannot:But the real change needs to happen is in the mindset. So the intent of the strategy is how do we evolve the mindset? And then there's a lot of information in there, but there's an area where we get to the big five, we call them and you can have a look. But in essence, talk about a diagnostic. We've asked all the L1s, all like Army, Navy, Air Force, all our leaders to think hard at their organization, their culture, to kind of do a diagnostic and then to develop their philosophy and a culture plan.
Jeannot:How will they evolve their culture? How will they close the gap between our espoused values and the behaviors we're seeing? And one really key aspect, we call it vignettes or scenario based, was just to ensure we're having conversations because people need to get comfortable being uncomfortable. A lot of these subjects at times are very uncomfortable but it's because we don't understand, we're not informed. So that's kind of in a nutshell the intent of the strategy, which has been in implementation right now for over a year.
Jeannot:The other part was to bring a structure. So right now, L1s, they have culture evolution coordinators, Think flight safety officers. So again, the concept is similar, right? You have flight safety officers at the unit at the wing level. We're not all the way down to the unit level for culture, but the idea again is just to acknowledge that this is important and to make sure we're regularly talking about it, to make sure we're we're not making unnecessary mistakes and in this case, misconducts.
Bryan:You've used the term l one a couple of times. Can you just let us know what that what that is?
Jeannot:Yeah. So l ones is probably an Ottawa term, but commander of the army, the air force, the navy, CAN SOFCOM, but then there's all the assistant deputy ministers, material, finance. There's over 20 L1s in Ottawa. So we want to make sure obviously the culture evolution we're trying to achieve this for the entire institution. So therefore, we've worked with all the L1s to make sure they all have their their philosophy, their plans that are guided or aligned with the overall defense team strategy.
Bryan:Okay. You mentioned that some of the vignettes that you worked on involved topics that some people would find uncomfortable, like just because we're maybe they're not comfortable, they're not used to discussing them and things. Can you give me some examples of of what those might be?
Jeannot:There's a 50 of them and and they're available for everybody to have those conversations, but they they talk about racism, they talk about transgender, they talk about 2SLGBTQ, they talk about ethics, they talk about toxic leadership, they talk about alcohol, they talk about any subject you can think. The idea is just to have a conversation. The analogy I use is rules of engagement. So right now, you know, of engagement for those that have deployed, you read them the first time, but they only really become true to you when you really talk about them in a group and you actually live them. So those vignettes are there for that.
Jeannot:We can talk about a lot of subjects but once you're in a small group and you discuss them around a scenario, when you argue it out and you hear different perspectives, it kind of helps probably increase your understanding of exactly what we're talking about. And then maybe when something real happens in your environment, you're going to see it. And again, kind of that that learning process.
Bryan:It's interesting that you mentioned alcohol simply because we're gonna talk later and do some questions from the audience. Some of the questions that I didn't end up using did have to do with alcohol use. And I just wasn't aware that this was that broad, that this was also called addressing things in our culture like alcohol. So that's that's interesting. That was something that was included.
Jeannot:Well, think it's no surprise that, you know, when you look at some of the causes of misconduct, you know, oftentimes it's related to alcohol. So again, how do we
Intro:For sure.
Jeannot:If we educate and we help people on the safe or the smart use of alcohol, then by default, we're in the prevention space and we're reducing ideally reducing the number of incidents I guess we're seeing.
Bryan:For sure. I think listeners will be really happy to hear that because there was a surprising amount of questions that were about that that basically said that that same thing. Like, hey, alcohol leads to a lot of these incidents. Alcohol leads to a lot of problems within the CAF right now. So what are we doing to establish like a more responsible culture around that?
Bryan:So that's that's really cool to hear. So we're still talking about the Department of Defense Culture Evolution Strategy. What were the biggest obstacles encountered when developing and implementing this strategy?
Jeannot:I I would just say, I think we moved as an institution from denial like a few decades ago to individual consciousness to collective consciousness. And I say that because I think the biggest obstacles were kind of fear of the unknown and lack of understanding, not seeing it. People don't see it. And I'll admit, I was the same. I didn't see it because I don't think I was I didn't know how to see it.
Jeannot:But when you take a step back, it becomes obvious there's areas of concern that we need to be better at and we need to enable our people to be better at. The analogy you can use is an elephant, right? Like, if you want to look at an elephant and you're by your own, like you step back, you're just going to see one side of the elephant. We need collectively, when we talk about culture, to be four or five people around that elephant talking. And only by taking a step back and looking at all sides of it Mhmm.
Jeannot:Can we really see it for what it is and then take the appropriate actions.
Bryan:Yeah. It's interesting that you talked about being one of those people who didn't see it. I think that a lot of us are guilty not guilty of that, but are in that situation. And and part of that, I think, is just that, you know, like, looking at you and I, for example, we're both white males. We're not gonna get exposed to a lot of the downsides of issues with culture, issues with diversity, inclusivity, all that stuff because the system historically was designed around us.
Bryan:So we have to be you have to consciously make an effort to take this on.
Jeannot:Absolutely. When I was asked to ask selected, I guess, to go to CPCC, I that's the question I asked myself. Why me? Why me a straight white male? But the idea is to connect to the operational community.
Jeannot:So me coming in as an operator, I need to understand, I need to appreciate it. And then I need to be an ally, right? Because we need to evolve from people that with lived experience will communicate, but then we need to evolve to where people like me, allies, make sure that the majority understand how important it is and work to try to see it. And once you see it, I mean, most human beings are good people and want to do the right thing. I trust that if people really see it and we educate them well on what right looks like, that people will do the right thing.
Bryan:Yeah. I completely agree. So you mentioned that you as a straight white male were selected to kind of, I guess I'll use the word lead to lead this effort. Does the team have a decent amount of diversity within it?
Jeannot:Yeah, the team's extremely diverse. So team's extremely diverse. So if you look at all equity seeking groups from racialized people to 2SLGBTQI plus to people with disability, women, the team is the team is very, very diverse.
Bryan:That's awesome to hear. And I I just think I think that's important for the listeners to hear that because I think there's been how do I put this? Like, there's been a few photos, for example, of like, hey. This is our new diversity team, and it was like all middle aged white guys. I think it's good for people to hear like, hey.
Bryan:This is a diverse team. This is people with lots perspectives. Like, this isn't just our take on it. This is a lived experience that we're working from.
Jeannot:You know, I'll candidly say probably myself, probably more of a minority in in in the team, which is good. Like, I've learned so much from I've rarely in my life been a minority. I talked a little bit when I was first kind of headquarters in the sense of a colonel with the army, but a minority kind of in the culture space to realize the impact of your words. And again, like realizing how we can be loud in a room because we feel very comfortable but when you're a minority in a group, how it's it's important for the other people to make you feel included and belonging so you can also contribute. So I kinda it's been a tremendous learning experience.
Bryan:Yeah. That's really interesting. The whole concept of like when you're the majority, it's easy to feel comfortable to be loud in the room. I just sort of pictured myself, like, what would it feel like to be not in the majority, which is generally something that hasn't happened for me. And I could see that you would quickly if if efforts weren't being made, you could quickly be feel like a bit of an outsider and maybe, like, you're you shouldn't be voicing your opinions.
Jeannot:Yeah. If you're a minority and you're by nature a calm and introverted person, yes, you're you likely your perspective will not be part of the solution, which is very unfortunate. Right?
Bryan:For sure. So for the Department of Defense Culture Evolution strategy, what does implementing this strategy look like? And is there a timeline to the efforts?
Jeannot:I mean, there's no timeline in the sense it's a never ending it's a never ending endeavor. Right? But to me, the best analogy for that is what we've called like the gym analogy. Right. As human beings, we all want to be healthy.
Jeannot:We all want to see the doctor and get told we're healthy.
Bryan:For sure.
Jeannot:So what do we need to do to get healthy? You need to exercise, you need to eat well, you need to hydrate, you need to sleep. So when we put out the strategy, we're kind of trying to tell people develop your plans to make sure again, you're exercising, you're healthy, you're hydrating, you're sleeping. And we trust that if you do that, when you do your health card, it's gonna when you get your health card, you're going to be healthy, right? Other analogy is obviously what's the timeline?
Jeannot:Well, the first step was probably to put together the building for the gym. Then the second step is to get machines and weights in there. And then it's to tell people or teach people how to use it. Right. And then you get to the point where if people understand it enough, they go to the gym because they know it's good for them.
Jeannot:They know how to use the machines to exercise and then they hydrate, they sleep and they eat well and they're healthy. Can you ever stop doing that? Well, if you stop doing it, you're going to regress, right?
Bryan:For sure.
Jeannot:So again, I think we put more resources into this because we needed to kind of raise the awareness, raise the understanding and get through the inertia. And and and then we'll figure out, and I think we're eventually getting there how to right size to make sure we just sustain and we don't regress back.
Bryan:So in that analogy of the gym, the the building, the equipment, using the equipment, Where do you think we are with this effort?
Jeannot:I think we're at the point where the gym is there. I think the equipment is in the gym, and I think our membership is increasing.
Bryan:Okay.
Jeannot:Their membership is increasing, but the number of people that are really knowledgeable about how to use it all and are actually able to tell others how to develop their their programs is not quite where it needs to be. But I think another year or two, and I think we'll I think we'll be good.
Bryan:For sure. And that's and these are like, culture change takes time. Right? Culture change doesn't happen overnight. It's I I would imagine it's quite complex to develop and change an organization's culture, especially one that relies on tradition for a lot of its sense of belonging.
Bryan:So I imagine there's a interesting line to walk between respecting our traditions and changing our culture.
Jeannot:Yeah, I think you're right. It takes a certain amount of time. I mean, need to you can't force it. So for people with lived experience that have been harmed and that kind of know what right looks like, we can never move fast enough for people that are digesting and assimilating and learning. Sometimes it feels like too much and we need to kind of navigate that but understand again, like culture evolution takes time.
Jeannot:We're about like, you know, evolving professional conduct and ethics, and that's something we've always done. Now we've gone through a bit of a period where we said, hey, we need to pay more attention to this.
Bryan:For sure. And and like you said, there are those two groups. There's those lived experiences and those people who are trying to learn. And you have to balance the needs because you don't wanna alienate either group. Absolutely.
Bryan:So what was the biggest positive change you witnessed during your time leading these efforts?
Jeannot:I think I kinda just alluded to it to be honest. It's that kind of that that collective consciousness and understanding. People are starting to see it. There's more and more people that see it. There was resistance at first.
Jeannot:Yeah. I think we've gone from why to how. People were like, why are we doing this? We're not getting a lot of that anymore.
Bryan:Okay.
Jeannot:We go around, we consult, we talk to commanders, we talk to chiefs, we talk to everybody. And I think the why now is not being questioned anymore. It's more on the how. So they're like, okay, we get it. We understand it's important.
Jeannot:How do we do this?
Bryan:Yeah, for sure.
Jeannot:And and that's been really positive. Now we have a lot of tools. Now we need to figure out how again, we need to figure out how we use that gym equipment. We optimize it to make sure we get the biggest biggest benefit.
Bryan:Yeah. That makes sense. You've got the buy in. It's just about now educating people on how to do it. Yeah.
Bryan:So you're also responsible for initiatives such as the CAF employment equity program, human rights policies, accessibility plans, and programs for two SLGBTQI plus members. How do these initiatives aim to create a more inclusive environment within the Canadian Armed Forces?
Jeannot:Like, I think all those programs, policies, and plans are there to, like, help us understand the why and help us. I alluded to it, how do we the simplest way to say it is how do we remove as many barriers as we can and how do we create equal opportunity for everybody? And that's what all those policies are aimed for. But a few examples may be that they kind of help people visualize. One is our Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School, for instance, now where we're selecting instructors, right?
Jeannot:So we're select instructors on specific criteria on character and the discussion on values and ethics has evolved from PowerPoint to discussions using our scenarios, right? So there are specific things like that we're doing. We're spending a lot of time at the OSED Institute where people know that this is where we train, educate, develop our NCOs and senior NCOs. So they're spending a lot of time talking about this. And I would say we've seen a great evolution in command teams.
Jeannot:Obviously, General Carignan started this almost four years ago now, but meeting command teams now, we're really seeing command teams, commanders and their senior chiefs really understanding and focused on how to improve our environment.
Bryan:Now you mentioned something there, I think it was OCD Institution, is that right?
Jeannot:Yeah, the OCD Institution is at the College Mitar Royale de Saint Jean and this is where all our I think it starts at warrant but even sergeants, warrants, master warrant officers and chiefs go there and it's led by chiefs or retired chiefs and that's where we kind of do the professional development for those people.
Bryan:Okay. So this is a big one. One of your goals in this position was to approach the challenge of eradicating systemic racism within the defense team. Can you explain what systemic racism is?
Jeannot:That's a that's a real, real tough one. But obviously, when you're talking about racism, there's individual racism, there's institutional racism, there's structural racism. So our policies and practices, all that together forms the system. So so how to define that in simple terms? I think most of what we do is based on supporting the norm and the norm is based on our colonial history.
Jeannot:It's just based on our history. Unfortunately, of our policies, our practices have not evolved. So they benefit some groups over others. Again, maybe one example is medical needs where right now our calf medical needs are tailored to the norm. Therefore to me and you, White straight males mainly.
Jeannot:It's not tailored to indigenous, black and Asian people where we have more of those people that just have unique needs. They have unique illnesses. They're not better, they're not worse. They're just different and unique. And we need to again to update our policies, our practices, the services we offer to make sure again that we're treating all of our people the same way.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Jeannot:Not the same way, but equitably, I guess.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. What strategies were implemented and what progress was made?
Jeannot:There there's tons of things in place. There's there's there's an anti racism resource hub, but there's a culture evolution resource center. We we've developed spectrums so people understand what hateful conduct is. There are tools for commanding officers. There's an incident decision management tool so people know how to navigate and how to deal with an incident and deal it at the lowest level.
Jeannot:Coaching program. We talked about vignettes and we're working actively on a complaints transformation and grievance transformation. So how do we make it easy for people to report an incident or misconduct and then we can send it to the right people and deal with it at the lowest level in a timely fashion. It doesn't get worse over many years. We also have the CCMSs, which I'll need to find the acronym, but they're on the 16 bases, which is point where each of our members can go there and they can communicate some of the challenges they face and they'll be guided to the right tools and services.
Bryan:Okay. I think also something that's important for people to understand with we we talked about that concept of systemic racism is that you mentioned it's built of, like, different types of racism. And some of those, like, on a personal level, someone, like, who's being racist, that one's obvious. Right? Like, people generally now recognize that's, hey, that's racist behavior.
Bryan:But some of the other stuff is, like, less easy to recognize, like, stuff that's baked into the system that we don't like you said, it's based on our past. It's based on kind of what has worked for us so far. It's not so obvious to people, and it's not necessarily even intentional. It's just this is the way we've done it. But hey, these are the effects it's having and we have to fix that.
Jeannot:I would say like what comes to mind when you talk about that is just unconscious bias. Again, for me coming into CPCC, like I underestimated how many unconscious biases I had. So even if I was trying to be nice or polite, because I think I always do, I was doing microaggressions and some people will say, like, you know, like like we're overstating that. But no, the answer is no. When you get smart on that, like it's, it's, you're being harmful or hurtful sometimes without doing it on purpose.
Jeannot:And I think that's where, again, if people, if there's anything, there's many things we can do. We talked about vignettes and conversations, but unconscious bias training, understanding that you have biases. And again, once you're aware, you're going to you're going to catch yourself doing it. I do now a lot and then I can react, but I couldn't at first because I just wasn't aware.
Bryan:Oh, it sounds like a a hugely steep learning curve, especially for somebody who is in that position that that you're in right now. Like, it's a challenging position affecting change, affecting cultural change, and there's just sounds like there's a lot to learn.
Jeannot:You know, Gerard Carignan talks about anticipate, learn and adapt. In this world right now, we need to learn how to anticipate, learn and adapt. And that comes from asking questions, being vulnerable, reading. I'm an avid reader like Reid, Reid. My old hockey coach again and I get back to him because he had a pretty good impact on my life.
Jeannot:He says, The day you stop trying to get better is the day you stop being good. So every day I learn there's one thing I fear. Won't live long enough to know everything I'd like to know. So get out there, ask questions and learn. The people in this culture space, like they want to talk to you.
Jeannot:They want to explain to you. They just want to feel like you want to learn or you want to listen. So if you're sincere and you want to learn and listen, you know, they're going to explain it to you and they're going to be very patient and you're going to feel good because you're going to know something you didn't know before.
Bryan:For sure. You mentioned another term there and this is like another one that people who aren't aren't on board, aren't totally sold on these concepts tend to react to, which is microaggressions. Can you explain what that is?
Jeannot:I'm not the best to explain that, to be honest. But to me, again, you might be saying a joke or you might be talking about people and again, even trying to be kind. But without knowing it's a microaggression on them, it's it's it's it makes them feel lesser because of the comment you made.
Bryan:So it sounds like though essentially it's like it's almost like small unintentional ways that you might make someone feel uncomfortable or hurt.
Jeannot:Exactly. Over time, imagine you're the only racialized person or person from the 2SLGBTQI plus community on a team and a team of 15 and the other 14 don't understand your reality at all. So they might be joking all day or saying things and microaggressions, well, mean, just add up, right? So, you know, one comment wouldn't be so bad, but if you're getting 10 a week over fifty weeks, well, that's 500 times in a year. And again, that's what a lot of these equity seeking groups feel.
Jeannot:People with disability, 2SLGBTQI plus community, racialized people, That's their reality.
Bryan:So what would you say to someone who says, why should those 14 people change their ways for one person?
Jeannot:Because if in there in the calf, they're all about being operationally effective and they're all about having a strong team that will go out there and deliver on the mission. And right now, it'd be very naive to think that you can do that without that person. To me, again, I I spoke earlier about my hockey analogy on a previous podcast about four lines. Like if you want to, yeah, you can win one day without that person. But if you're going to survive like a thirteen month deployment working seven days a week, you need every member to bring their full selves.
Jeannot:And that's not even talking about the fact that that person might be your smartest cyber person, your smartest IT person. And right now, by not including him and not making him or her feel they belong, you're losing out on maybe something that's gonna be critical to the mission.
Bryan:For sure. Not to mention the fact that these people are brothers and sisters in arms, right? Like, we're comrades.
Jeannot:Like, we're we're a family, right? Like, I mean, to me, people say, what's leadership? Like, when we say we're a family, you know, we need to walk the talk. So if we're a family, then that means as a leader, every member of your team is like one of your children. And and I have a hard time thinking how one would not treat them, every one of them, with the same with the same respect and dignity.
Bryan:Mhmm. So what would you say are the ongoing challenges related to diversity, equity, and inclusion within the Canadian Armed Forces?
Jeannot:The the one thing I'd say to that right now, like anywhere, like any organization, like any society, there's a lot of great people and there's a few bad people. We need to get to the point like flight safety, where when something is inappropriate, we talk about it. And if it's minor, we adapt and learn. But if it's major and it's a character flaw or somebody that does not reflect their values and ethics, unfortunately, we say you're not made to be part of this institution. Those challenges will never go away.
Jeannot:We get 200 new recruits probably every week from various backgrounds. We need to make sure again, we have people with the right character. You've probably heard character commitment and competent. We need competent people for sure. We need committed people for sure but we need people with the right character.
Jeannot:We need people that are respectful, hardworking, good leaders and you know, everybody can make mistakes. We're not about not making mistakes. We're about learning from our mistakes. And again, if if you're unable to treat everybody around you with respect and dignity, then unfortunately, I don't think you're you're in an institution where you're welcome.
Bryan:You led the institutionalization of gender based analysis plus or GBA plus enterprise approach across the defense team. What role does GBA plus play in creating a more equitable and inclusive military and why is it important?
Jeannot:So assuming most of the people listening to this are Air Force people, but I'm gonna talk about intelligence preparation of the environment. So if you understand it, that's awesome. If not, as an Air Force person, you need to understand that. But basically we wouldn't deploy anywhere without understanding the environment we're getting in. How that works is you define the environment, the effects, the threats, you come up with Koa's, right?
Bryan:Can you explain what a Koa is?
Jeannot:Courses of action. Basically, how I'm going to do this. And you look at geography, you look at terrain, you look at the population, you look at all these things. GBA plus or intersectional analysis is kind of the relationship between a bunch of identity factors. So age, ethnic background, family status, socioeconomic factors.
Jeannot:And there's a, you know, and there's there you can be advantaged or disadvantaged depending on how you look at it. So to me, before you deploy somewhere, it's understanding your team is doing kind of your cultural preparation of the environment. Who are my team members and what are the effects? What are the threats? And what is the best way to What's the best system?
Jeannot:What's the best way to employ this team to have maximum effect on the battlefield? We're all about, I think the easiest way to understand how to go about operations is understand, decide, act. Well, GBA plus or intersectional analysis is key to the understand piece. It's key to understanding your team and then you can go out, decide, and act in whatever environment or mission you're sent to.
Bryan:I really like that you related that back to the battle space. I think that GBA plus is a you know, everyone had to do their GBA plus training. It's a term that gets thrown around a lot and I think sometimes derisively. So it's good to understand, like, why is this important? How does this relate back to the battle space?
Bryan:And how does this relate to our business as warfighters?
Jeannot:Yeah. It's it's it's all about this. The and the team that works this knows that. They work with CJOC. They work with with with people deploying because in the end, people deploying need to under us understand their environment so that they can define their mission and their goals.
Jeannot:But they also need to understand their team to be aware about, you know, the makeup of their team, to maximize that team, to maximize the effect and to benefit from all the diversity, you know, of thought and experience that's within their team. If you're not doing that, you're definitely not putting out the most effective or the strongest team you can.
Bryan:For sure. So finally, let's discuss your current role, which is chief of staff CPCC. It sounds similar. So how is this role different from your role as director general?
Jeannot:Yeah. It's it's basically I cored all the CPCC activities. So we have the chief of professional conduct and culture, the assistant, the chief, like any organization as the chief of staff. I just cored all the activities. There's five DGs.
Bryan:Which are director generals.
Jeannot:That that's in essence my role. So hopefully, I've learned from my time as director general culture and then I'm trying to to enable the entire team to implement what we're trying to do.
Bryan:So you're more setting the overall goals and coordination and then letting your team make it happen?
Jeannot:Well, I'm the chief of staff again. So my boss is is lieutenant general Prevot, chief professional conduct and culture. So I co ord. I provide options. And then based on his decisions and direction and guidance, yes, the director generals, they go out and they execute.
Bryan:Okay. What are your current priorities as chief of staff?
Jeannot:I'll just make a quick snap. Like, we talked a lot about the flight safety mindset. So I want us to get to that. But I would say the priorities are complaints transformation and grievance transformation. We need to create the mechanism to make it easy for people to report and for us to kind of send that to the right people so we can address those in a timely fashion.
Jeannot:And then we can learn from that and become kind of as an institution become self aware and preventive. That's really what the focus is at this point for CPCC.
Bryan:Okay. So you've mentioned before that you have a son in the calf. How does that motivate you when it comes to your work with CPCC?
Jeannot:Well, I think it just makes it extra more important that you get to a certain rank in the institution when it's about giving back. Right now I'm trying to give back and make sure I leave the institution better than it was so people can have the same amazing career I have. Obviously, the fact that I have a son that's a lieutenant just makes that even more real to me. Plus all his friends, right? I've gotten to know all his friends intimately.
Jeannot:So there's a lot of young people that I've encouraged, I've mentored, and I feel responsible to try to to make this place as as exciting and as good as it can be.
Bryan:Do you find that having that connection with your son who's a lieutenant and his buddies, does that help kind of connect you with what are younger people thinking about culture and and that sort of thing right now?
Jeannot:Yeah, I think it does. And and it it does a lot of things. One is obviously we're dealing with important issues, but but to young people down, like, just want to be able to do their job. We need to get them the resources. We need to get them a mission and we need to get them out there doing their jobs.
Jeannot:They should they should listen and obviously make sure we're creating the right environment and the right culture. But they should be focused on that and creating effective teams and doing their jobs and having fun. Yeah, they'll have their chance in a few years to kind of come deal with these problems. That's what I'm reminded of as well. I think back when I had their age and life was easier and hopefully our young people keep it simple.
Jeannot:Obviously, they treat everybody around them the way they should, but they just focus on on having fun and doing their job.
Bryan:Mhmm. Where do you see the Canadian Armed Forces going in the future in terms of its culture?
Jeannot:I think culture evolves with the environment. So again, the world is increasingly complex and interconnected. Our population is increasingly diverse. So like where we go is we need to evolve our professional conduct and ethics to to reflect that reality. So I.
Jeannot:Like, that's the way I look at it. I want a calf. I want a defense team where everybody treats everybody with respect and dignity and where everybody has the moral courage to speak up when something inappropriate happens. So we fix it at the lowest level for the team to be stronger. That's first.
Jeannot:But if it's serious, then we deal with it appropriately. Those are the two things. Treat everybody with respect and dignity and have the moral courage. Like if you see something inappropriate and you don't talk, then you're failing the team, right? Like you're failing that person.
Jeannot:That person's going be harmed and that's awful. But people are saying why this culture thing because we're about operations. Well, you're failing the team. Therefore, you're putting your team at risk on operations by by by letting that go.
Bryan:What's the thing you're most proud of implementing within the CAF?
Jeannot:It seems simple, but that's a really hard question for me to answer. Like, to me is leaving a profit. Like, every step of the way, I've just tried to make things a little bit better. I've tried to enable people to achieve their goals. So the things I'm most proud of, I think the thing I'm most proud of is I have a lot of people calling me from all ranks and asking me for advice, asking me for support.
Jeannot:And then I feel I have their trust to help them achieve their goals. So I think that's that's what I'm most proud of.
Bryan:Yeah, I like that.
Jeannot:That's what I'm I'm going to retire someday. That's what I'm going to miss the most is that that that connection with people and that ability to just like at this rank, but throughout my career. But now if there's like, if there's one reason I like rank is is it enables me to hopefully make a difference, a positive difference in the life of people.
Bryan:Gives you a chance to step into that space as a mentor.
Jeannot:Yeah.
Bryan:So you mentioned retirement. What do you see as your endpoint in the CAF and what comes next for you?
Jeannot:I think I talked about it earlier. I think I'm all about doing the best I can. I'm I'm awful at predicting the future. So you got my four zero three story about me never wanting to be close to the army and never in my mind would have thought I'd be in the culture and the people space. So I'm awful at predicting the future.
Jeannot:I'm still passionate about learning. I'm passionate about reading. I'm passionate about coaching. So I'm going to do the best I can and continue playing my role within the CAF as long as I'm in uniform. But even after that, I want to keep serving this country and I'll find a way to hopefully help guide young people like it was done for me when I was young and that enabled me to achieve my goals.
Bryan:Alright. So next we're gonna do some questions from the audience. I always try to do this when I I feel like we have on this show privileged access to sometimes people of senior ranks, and I like to try to enable some people to to kinda talk with you guys. So the first one we got is a bit spicy. Why does conduct and professional culture need a major general in charge of it?
Bryan:What does the office provide other than a reminder that racism, sexism, assault, etcetera are bad?
Jeannot:Listen, we resource what's important to us. And I think right now we've been talking for a couple hours over the last two podcasts, and I think we all want to be effective and we wanna win once we're faced, you know, with battle. And I think for that, we need everybody and we need everybody to be their best. So we have the resources we have because it's that important.
Bryan:So this is another tough one. A 2022 study on sexual misconduct in the forces noted that sixty one percent of members considered sexual misconduct to be a problem in the CAF. However, ninety six percent of members strongly or somewhat agreed that it is understood by their unit that sexual misconduct has no place in the calf. So broadly speaking, what we have is that individuals largely report a positive environment in their immediate units yet still perceive this as a calf wide systemic issue. So why do you think that is?
Jeannot:I think we all agree on our espoused values. I think we all agree on those. So when we talk, we all agree. But I think if we look really hard, we see that there's a gap between those values and the behaviors we see across the institution. The statistics show it.
Jeannot:How do we close that gap? So to me, that's what this means and that's what we're trying to tackle. And how do you tackle that? You increase awareness, you increase understanding, you enable conversations and you provide the tools. You raise those issues to the surface and eventually you're able to deal with them and hopefully you close that gap.
Jeannot:The statistics become 90% of people know what's important and 85% of people feel we're behaving in a way that's consistent with that.
Bryan:Mhmm. I wonder also that 96% who essentially think things are good in their immediate area. We talked a little bit about how like the majority of us tend not to be the people who are affected by it. So it could also be that they just don't notice some of the stuff that's a problem.
Jeannot:You just don't see it. Like, I think I was part of that, right? Like, I was totally part of that. Didn't see it. I like I'm like, well, I'm hearing all this and I'm not seeing it.
Jeannot:But you have to take a step back and you have to realize again what your unconscious biases are. You have biases, therefore you're just not seeing it. And if you take a step back, you start seeing it. And when you start seeing it, you start realizing, my God, we're we're harming our own people in a way that is preventable and in a way where we're losing talent and and and we can't afford it right now. We wanna recruit.
Jeannot:We wanna retain. We can't afford to lose the talent we have.
Bryan:For sure. For sure. And and speaking of retention, we know that's a hot topic in the CAF currently. What initiatives is CPCC working on to establish a culture of retention?
Jeannot:So we talked about our our our policy, and the key piece in our policy is readiness. So right now our focus is how can we be ready in the event of a global conflict? Like we need to be ready. And the four parts of readiness are people, equipment, training and sustainment. The people piece has two aspects.
Jeannot:It's got recruitment and it's got retention. So what's the CPCC role? It's everything we talked about. It's creating the environment that we can bring in all the talent and we can retain all the talent. That's what we're actively working on.
Jeannot:We're trying to make the CAF or the defense team an awesome place to work where you feel you belong, you feel valued and you feel you come in every day and you contribute. That's our part in CPCC. Then Chief of Military Personnel, CMP, they're focused with Associate Deputy Minister of Human Resources on how do we recruit talent and how do we retain talent. Because we were talking about microaggressions earlier And when you have microaggressions, what we're seeing is we can bring in diversity, we can bring in talent. We lose these people after seven or eight years.
Jeannot:Why? I think it's the accumulation of those microaggressions and and the fact again that we're not as inclusive as we think we are.
Bryan:Okay. How does the CPCC find a way to connect with and listen to the future of the CAF? In other words, the privates, corporals, officer cadets, second lieutenants, and other junior members?
Jeannot:Everywhere, every way you can imagine. We consulted about 19,000 people or General Carignan CPCC. We have defense advisory groups running town halls, social media, emails, junior member advisory councils, every way we can. And if there's suggestions, let us know. Like we want to connect with CAF members.
Jeannot:We want to understand. We want to make the changes. I'm old. I have a 24 year old son, so I understand through him. But I'm aware that I need to understand the realities of everybody across the institution if we wanna make changes that will make a difference.
Bryan:So it sounds like there's lots of efforts going on with that.
Jeannot:Yes.
Bryan:How does the CPCC view Madame Arber's report on sexual misconduct in leadership? The CAF agreed with all recommendations. What concrete orders have been given to take action on these recommendations?
Jeannot:So again, the actions speak louder than words. So we have a comprehensive implementation plan. So there's those recommendations plus others, two zero six of them that we're actively implementing. And there's an external monitor and people read the latest report. You know, findings that that were genuinely invested in making in implementing the recommendations and making a difference.
Jeannot:So I think we have a plan signed by the minister. We're reporting on it, and we're trying to implement all those recommendations in the spirit within which they were written. So I don't think we can be more serious than we are about this.
Bryan:So essentially, not only are we implementing them, but there's also external external monitors happening to make sure that we're implementing them.
Jeannot:Yes. And we continue to engage with academics, with people with lived experience, people from those communities. So is it perfect? No, right. Don't take my comments as saying we got this.
Jeannot:It's all perfect. But we're trying really hard. And if we're not meeting the mark, then people, you know, getting back to your previous question, we need people to tell us, hey, we get what you're trying. You're not hitting the mark. You're not understanding the real issue.
Jeannot:So it's a it's a yeah, it's a dialogue that needs to continue. That's never ending.
Bryan:So this is a tough one. Can you give an example of when you made a mistake or caused harm as a leader and what personal changes you made as a result?
Jeannot:You know what? Like, the story that comes to mind are my two first weeks in CPCC. I went in there thinking if there's one thing I'm good at, I think is connecting with people and and building trust with people. After two weeks, remember having dinner with my wife and saying, I don't know if I'm going to succeed because just because of all my unconscious biases and the language I was using, I think I was I was yeah, I was I I was doing microaggressions, I think on people not on purpose. So what did I do?
Jeannot:I started asking questions. I started telling people, help me. I educated myself. I've been reading on it just again to kind of be more aware, to be more conscious, more mindful of my environment. Right now I'm much better for it and I'm trying to help the rest of the people do it.
Jeannot:So we focus a lot on big mistakes or big misconducts, which are totally unacceptable we need to deal with. But I think the real value, the real money is on dealing with those small incidents and misconducts at the lowest level in a tiny fashion to make sure we make the team better at the lowest level.
Bryan:Yeah. And just to make people feel safe on a everyday basis.
Jeannot:Absolutely. Yep. Like, I mean, we're we're a big team made of small teams. Right? It starts with section.
Jeannot:So, I mean, I I dream of going back to having my section or eight or 10 people, knowing them all personally and just making that team the most agile, the most effective, the most honest and transparent team out there. Right? And then so so again, we can put in policies. We can do stuff in Ottawa, but like all people probably listening to this podcast, they're all leading teams at their levels. And even if they're part of the team, right?
Jeannot:Because it's not only the leaders or the bosses job to to create the environment. It's everybody's job to lead in the culture space.
Bryan:What are we doing to establish a better culture of integration with reservists and to ensure they are treated equally with full time members?
Jeannot:That's an ongoing effort as well. Obviously, we work with the chief of the reserves and we're trying to make reserves fully integrated in what in everything we do. My mind space on this brings me back to when I was CO four thirty squadron and I had like 200 Regforce people, but 75 reservists. And my logistics flight was made of 11 Regforce and 18 reservists. My maintainers, I had a lot of reservists because I had people that were sergeants or warrants that would retire in the area but stay in as reservists.
Jeannot:So I believe in the value of reservists and anybody that would have visited the squadron would not have been able to tell the difference between a reg force and a reservist. So I just think we need that total force mindset and that applies to contractors, to other partners, to industry as we move forward. I mean, once again, warfare is increasingly complex, multifaceted, and it requires all part of society. So we to we need to definitely integrate reserves, but I think we need to even go further.
Bryan:So finally, for the last question from the audience, did you choose to be chief of staff CPCC? And what is your end goal before you leave the position?
Jeannot:I didn't choose to be chief of staff CPCC, but I think it was a logical evolution for continuity. General Carignan was obviously the the person that stood up. CPCC was moving on. The the associate CPCC had moved on. So basically, lot of people had moved on.
Jeannot:So for continuity, I stayed on as chief of staff. Rear Admiral Jacques Olivier stayed on as director general culture because he was the DG of professional conduct and he'd been there since the start. So it was to build in build in continuity.
Bryan:Okay. That makes sense. And do you have a goal before you leave the position?
Jeannot:I think I've said it is instill a flight safety mindset into culture. Have people trust that they can report and that things will be dealt with and that the teams will be stronger and will be a more effective military.
Bryan:Right on. Alright. So we're down to our classic last three questions. You have held a lot of impressive positions over the course of your career and done a variety of mission sets both in the cockpit and behind a desk. What is the one thing you do to stay ready for your job?
Jeannot:I think I'm gonna give you more than one, but the top one that comes to mind is ask questions and read.
Bryan:Okay.
Jeannot:I just ask questions. I'm curious and I read. I read everything people tell me to read. But that second one I'd say is focus on what I control and let things take me where they need. Right?
Jeannot:So not focus on the end state all the time. It's focus on what I control and setting the right conditions. That's the two things I think I I stay true to.
Bryan:Yeah. I like that. Especially the reading bit is such a challenge these days. I think we're so used to consuming media in a lot of different forms. And it's so it's important to still stay in the books and whatever that means for you at at the thing you're working on.
Bryan:Right? Like, whether that's for new pilots to stay in the books for their systems or tactics or when you're at a more of a a level that you're at reading the various books that you've been reading to to learn about culture change and all those things. It's important.
Jeannot:Yeah. I think you picked on something really important. So as a captain, you're right. Reading but become the best pilot or air crew or whatever trade. So master the fundamentals.
Jeannot:And I would say I really started reading academically in my masters, I think at 28 or 29. So the first few years are become the best at your craft. That's the role of a junior or NCM or junior officer. But then eventually you need to want learn about everything else. I like to understand the essence of things so I'm probably old school but I try to read books and really understand the essence of things and kinda make up my own mind on what right looks like based on that level of reading but that's me.
Jeannot:You've worked with a lot
Bryan:of pilots throughout your career and have over three thousand flying hours in your logbook. What qualities do you think make an excellent pilot?
Jeannot:There's a lot, but I think if I distill it down to three or four like disciplined, humble, humble. Like to me as a pilot, I learned to fail like, you know, through high school, everything was easy but as a pilot, I learned to be humble. I learned you can fail and then you got to get back up and just keep going. Then I learned that in various other jobs, be decisive. Like it's one thing to think and to talk, at one point someone needs to decide.
Jeannot:And the last one is know your role. And that's at all levels. Like, know your role within the crew, know your role within the unit, know your role within the formation. And based on that role, where should you be today? And then be there and do the right thing.
Bryan:Mhmm. I like that. So finally, you've come a long way in your career, but like everyone at some point, you started as a brand new pilot. What advice would you give to today's pilot still on the line, either those who are new or maybe even on their second tour?
Jeannot:Like, I think the future is super exciting, very honestly, especially in the air force, and you can have a fun and really rewarding career. I would say the mines like a parachute, so it works a lot better when it's open. So keep an open mind throughout your whole career and make the most of every opportunity. The opportunities are going to pop up all over. You got to jump on all of them.
Jeannot:I talked about it earlier, but the day you stop trying to get better is the day you're going to stop being good. You got to keep learning. You got to be keep improving and you need to be aware and mindful of your environment and take care of the people around you. I think that's critical. Yeah.
Jeannot:The future of the air force is amazingly bright and you're going to have your own unique set of challenges and opportunities. If I could, I think I'd do it all over again. Even if I didn't join, I guess, to be a pilot reflecting back, I joined again and I do it all over again.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. I know that's like the old cliche, right? It's an exciting time to be in the air force, but man, with the new capabilities that are coming online, it's gonna be really cool.
Jeannot:Listen, at my level, I think, and that's what I'm there for. Like, we wanna make the environment as best as it can be. We need to get more capability. We need more ammo. We need more money.
Jeannot:And that's, you know, that's kind of my job. But again, if you're just joining right now and you're on unit on our new aircraft and deployed to Latvia, deployed to wherever you're at, like, just get out there and learn your job and and have fun.
Bryan:Well, Janong, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your very busy schedule to be here. We've put a lot of prep in behind the scenes for this and I just appreciate you investing that time and making this a great interview. So thank you so much for being here today.
Jeannot:Thanks, Brian. I had a lot of fun. Thanks for the opportunity. This was a privilege to be able to share that. And as always, I'm always open to critiques and to questions from people listening because in the end, we are sincere and genuine about, wanting to understand and wanting to make things better.
Jeannot:Thanks, Brian.
Bryan:Yeah. It was my pleasure. Alright. That wraps up our three part series with major general Geno Boucher, chief of staff, chief professional conduct and culture on his career as well as culture change within the Canadian Armed Forces. For our next episode, we'll be sitting down with a repeat guest.
Bryan:Listeners may remember major Dan Conway from episode five where we discussed his role as an instructor on the phase three multiengine course. Dan is going to return to the show. We're going to discuss his career, his early days in training, as well as his operational days. And finally, we'll finish with a discussion on the future of fixed wing search and rescue, including the CC two nine five Kingfisher. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show?
Bryan:Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show? You can reach out to us at the pilot project podcast at Gmail dot com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts.
Bryan:That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.
Intro:Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.
