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Intro/outro: 00:30

Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set. PD switches.

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Normal. Doors and hatches. Closed. Lay down. Stroblade.

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On. Research check-in. Complete with your left. Engineer. Start number two.

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Starting to. Wing three one zero ten, pilot project podcast, clear takeoff runway three one left.

Bryan: 00:58

Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is my good friend, major Dan Conway, a SAR pilot and deputy commanding officer four thirteen transport and rescue squadron in Greenwood, Nova Scotia. Listeners may remember Dan from way back in episode five on the phase three multiengine course.

Bryan: 01:21

Dan, welcome back to the show. It's great to talk to you again.

Dan: 01:24

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Brian.

Bryan: 01:26

Today, will be talking about Dan's career in the RCAF and his experience flying fixed wing search and rescue or SAR, as well as talking a little bit about the future of SAR and the C295 Kingfisher. But before we jump into any of that, let's go through Dan's bio. Dan joined the RCAF in 2005 under the Regular Officer Training Program, or ROTP, and attended the Royal Military College from 2005 to 02/2009. In 02/2009, Dan was posted to the Rescue Coordination Centre in Trenton, Ontario as an assistant air controller working on SAR cases. In In 2011, Dan began his military pilot training attending phase two on the CT one hundred fifty six Harvard in Moose Jaw followed by phase three multi engine training on the c ninety b King Air in Portage La Prairie earning his pilot wings in May of twenty twelve.

Bryan: 02:08

Dan was posted to Comox BC for his first operational flying tour on the CC 115 Buffalo and flew search and rescue there for four years. He was then posted to be a phase three multi engine instructor in Portage La Prairie, Manitoba in 2016 where he taught for more than five years helping put wings on almost 150 graduates. In 2021, he was posted to one Canadian Air Division in Winnipeg as an instrument check pilot for one year, still flying the King Air but also conducting check rides on almost every fleet in the RCAF on behalf of Air Force standards. In 2022, Dan was promoted to major and posted to four thirteen Transport and Rescue Squadron in Greenwood where he flew the CC-one 138 Hercules in SAR and is still an operational instructor pilot and deputy commanding officer. Throughout his career, Dan has flown more than four thousand hours, acted as a SAR AC on two platforms, an instrument check pilot on many platforms, and earned the highest category for a qualified flight instructor and instrument pilot at multiple units.

Bryan: 03:03

Dan is married to the love of his life, Kaylee, and father to three wonderful kids. So let's start with your early career. We've covered some of this ground before, but it's been a couple of years, so let's rehash. Where did aviation start for you?

Dan: 03:16

Yeah. I went through cadets as a young kid and basically from before I was 12, knew that I wanted to be a pilot. It's what I've always kind of been working towards and it's been pretty awesome just living my dream.

Bryan: 03:33

Do you have any memory of what started you down that path in terms of aviation and being a pilot or is just something that was always there?

Dan: 03:39

Yeah. I think I told this story before on the last episode, but I wanted to be an f sixteen pilot and it took a long time

Bryan: 03:48

Yes.

Dan: 03:49

For before someone had the heart to let me know that we didn't have f sixteens. But in that in that journey, I had heard about cadets and and that I could get a pilot's license through there. And I joined and I really really loved it. So The the goal switched from being an f sixteen pilot to being a a big plane pilot probably when I was 14 or so.

Bryan: 04:15

Okay. Yeah. What do you think your coolest memory is from those early days of flight training with cadets and beyond?

Dan: 04:20

Yeah. That's a good question. Probably my first solo cross country when you're doing your private pilot's license and I think you're 17 and they give you a plane and and tell you to go do a, you know, four hour cross country across Southern Ontario and that's pretty cool.

Bryan: 04:35

Where were you flying out of for that one?

Dan: 04:36

Waterloo, Wellington. Yep. Yeah. Out of yeah. Waterloo, Wellington Flight Centre.

Bryan: 04:41

Yep. Yeah. I was flying out of it was called Empire Aviation at the time in London on

Dan: 04:47

the In London?

Bryan: 04:48

Yeah. But you were on a what? A one fifty?

Dan: 04:50

One seventy two for that.

Bryan: 04:51

Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay.

Dan: 04:52

Yeah.

Bryan: 04:53

That's good. That's a little a little more beefy of a plane than a one fifty.

Dan: 04:58

Yeah. And they were the new ones. So they had they had two old ones with carb heat and then they had two with the fuel injectors. And I remember like how fancy it felt. Not not having to worry about carb heat and stuff.

Bryan: 05:10

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So what motivated you to follow this interest in aviation by serving in the CAF?

Dan: 05:17

Well, when we joined, it was a bit of a dip economically and there weren't a lot of jobs available in the civy sector without quite a few years of trying to build hours. And the the military always appealed to me, especially with with cadets. And then going to RMC, you know, seemed like a a really logical choice.

Bryan: 05:40

Yeah. Yeah. So you said you attended RMC under the ROTP program. What studies did you decide to pursue?

Dan: 05:48

Initially mechanical engineering. And then after a year of that, I got a history degree, which was great. Yeah. I kinda When I signed up for engineering, that's just what I was doing and I hadn't really put any critical thought into it. Then when I was there, my favorite courses were the arts courses.

Bryan: 06:08

Okay.

Dan: 06:09

And it was quite challenging, the mechanical engineering program. It freed up a lot more time to pursue all my other things that I was interested in the university.

Bryan: 06:21

Yeah. Well, plus RMC is you're doing university on hard mode, right? Like you have so many other obligations and inspections and PT and all the various things, especially in your first year. So I can only imagine that doing an engineering degree on top of that must be pretty crazy.

Dan: 06:37

Yeah. It's I mean, a lot of people do it and it's pretty impressive. Yeah. It wasn't That wasn't for me.

Bryan: 06:42

Yeah. That's fair. So I know some people who loved being at RMC and some who found it very difficult. How did you like attending RMC?

Dan: 06:51

I actually really liked it. I thought was a great time. I think some people struggle with the all of the different pressures. So there are a lot of people who have no French background and getting a French profile is requirement. And that can be really stressful or people who struggle with the physical fitness aspect.

Dan: 07:13

But I had a pretty good base in in all of the aspects. So I really just kind of got to enjoy it. And it was like it's like full immersion into military life Mhmm. Which is if you're into that, a lot of fun.

Bryan: 07:28

Well, it certainly has its pros. I remember when I was on my first OJTE posting after university and having gone to a civilian university, and I was posted with some people who had been to RMC. The difference between us in terms of what we knew about the military was massive because I had just done my two basic training courses and that was it. And they knew they knew basically how to be in the military and I did not.

Dan: 07:52

Yeah. That's fair. But I mean, at this point in your career, there's essentially no difference. Right? Like it's everything kind of evens out as you go through and and become operationally qualified.

Dan: 08:05

Yeah. It doesn't really matter what path you're taking. The the training throughout will will get you to that endpoint.

Bryan: 08:11

Yeah. For sure. It was just during those early days that the I think for them, the culture shock had already happened, whereas I was experiencing it for the first time as a university graduate. What would you say was the best and worst parts of going to RMC?

Dan: 08:26

The best part of RMC was probably the program, the academic program. I did military strategic studies, which is a mixture of history and politics and also that military nerd thing that I really enjoy. So I thought the program was really fascinating, but also applicable to my career and becomes more applicable the longer I'm in, I find. And it was hard hard to see people struggle and hard to get really close to people and then have them, release in between years or not be successful on their occupational training and then end up releasing.

Bryan: 09:11

So

Dan: 09:11

that happened, I think probably twenty, twenty five percent of our class ended up not graduating.

Bryan: 09:18

Oh, really? Yeah. That would be really challenging because you get a little taste of that on basic training as you like make friends and they drop out. But I imagine that's much harder when you're in university and forming deeper friendships and then that's that's happening.

Dan: 09:34

It's very rare that people aren't trying. Every Everyone there is kind of trying and and giving everything that they have, but there's there's a lot to accomplish in in a short amount of

Bryan: 09:44

time. Mhmm. You mentioned using your degree more as time goes on. Like how are you finding that it is more useful?

Dan: 09:52

So you're familiar with CAF JODs and the and the developmental program for air force officers?

Bryan: 10:00

Yeah. For listeners Well, why don't you explain for the listeners what that is?

Dan: 10:03

So the CAF JADS are the basic military law, military history, primers on Geneva Convention, that kind of stuff. Things that every officer in the military should understand. And then the AFODs are air force officer development and they bring you through how the air force actually functions, what its position in the government is, what its purpose is, and where all of the different authorities lie. As you go through that, the capstone to that is called the air and space power operations course. There's a heavy component of military history and military strategy in that.

Dan: 10:44

The operational planning process is obviously military strategy at the operational level, vice the strategic level. And I find that the academic portion of all of those courses give me that same taste of military history and and that I that I got in university.

Bryan: 11:04

Okay.

Dan: 11:05

So I, you know, I really enjoy reading military journals and stuff like that. I find it really fascinating.

Bryan: 11:13

Okay. I've heard the first year orientation period or FIOP can be really tough. How did you find it?

Dan: 11:21

Well, I was really young and I was really fit. So that's my context. So I actually didn't mind it because I just put my head down and did the thing. But it was intense. But some of your best memories come from going through like a crucible with a group of people.

Bryan: 11:41

For

Dan: 11:41

sure. So I still remember every person that I did FIOP with and that you it culminates in an obstacle course at the end and you kind of go through it and it's a big exciting rite of passage at the time. And you do get a true sense of accomplishment. Even though it was just like a year long or a month long extra basic training basically, it does give you this real sense of accomplishment and then inclusion into the school once it's done.

Bryan: 12:11

For sure. I mean and I think that's the whole point of it, right? Is it's essentially indoctrination in a good way Yes. To to help you and your your cohort meld into a unit and and bond.

Dan: 12:22

Yeah. And I think in the past before I was there, there was a lot of, you know, hazing and and a little bit of a darker history to that, which has kind of been captured. Mhmm. But there was none of that. Like, there was nothing inappropriate or malicious or hazing when we were there.

Dan: 12:39

It was just work and fitness. Yeah. A big point of FIOP is to get people on the right track for physical fitness. Yeah.

Bryan: 12:50

What's something you learned as an officer at RMC that still shapes how you conduct yourself today?

Dan: 12:57

At RMC, like I said before, there were a lot of people that were struggling and you got to see a lot of good examples and bad examples for that how that was handled by the leadership. So there were some really good examples where the members were supported with empathetic leadership. They were given opportunities to improve. And then in my opinion, there were some bad examples where it felt like those members were ostracized because they weren't able to meet the standard and eventually those people would release, but it was not a supportive and kind process for them. So it's it's always kind of stuck with me that there there is a standard that needs to be met, but there are different ways that you can support your subordinates and encourage and motivate them without making them feel isolated and ostracized.

Dan: 13:56

Mhmm. And I think that's applicable to basically everything that we do. If you lead with empathy, people are more able to meet the standard in the end. Because everyone has a life, everyone has family, and everyone is balancing all of that and they're trying to make the air force work for their life. But if you're tipping the scales and the balance doesn't work for them, they're always going to choose family over the military.

Dan: 14:25

So you really do need to lead with empathy.

Bryan: 14:27

Mhmm. Yeah. That makes sense. So let's talk about your phase one flight training. You attended phase one on the GROBE in 02/2007.

Bryan: 14:35

How did you feel as you arrived for your first flight training course in the RCAF?

Dan: 14:39

I was pretty excited. I had a bit of flying under my belt and I had also flown the fixed gear version of the Globe before I went there. So I didn't anticipate any struggles and it was It kind of felt like being on my air cadet power course again and I had a lot of fun.

Bryan: 14:59

Yeah. What was your first impression of flight training in the RCAF?

Dan: 15:04

So phase one training is done by civilian contractors that work for KF Aero.

Intro/outro: 15:08

Mhmm.

Dan: 15:09

And I thought that they were really professional and they were working towards a standard. I I found that the instruction was really good. And the plane at that point in my career felt like a hot rod. It was really cool. Yeah.

Bryan: 15:22

Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny, like the the baby plane basically of the Air Force. But when you're coming from the private pilot world and you're used to Cessnas or a Katana or, you know, these really small piston engine aircraft. Of course, the Globe is still a piston engine.

Dan: 15:39

Yeah.

Bryan: 15:40

It's a it's a far more high performance aircraft than what you're used to.

Dan: 15:43

Yeah. It was it's definitely like a a Ferrari compared to a Cessna one fifty two or something like that.

Bryan: 15:50

Can you briefly describe the course as well as the overall goals of phase one?

Dan: 15:55

So phase one is a selection course. They're not actually trying to teach you how to fly. They're trying to give you the tools to learn in a military setting and then assess whether or not you can learn in a military setting. So there are goals. They do want you to be able to perform the landings and the take offs and the maneuvers to a certain standard.

Dan: 16:19

But the goal is actually to learn at a specific rate that's dictated. And then if you can't, you are gonna struggle on follow on training because we can't let a student get unlimited hours to the standard. So that's kind of the point is to make sure you have the aptitude to learn on a curve, which I'm sure is something you've you've heard before. But they do give you all the tools that you need to be successful. And with aircrew selection before that, most people that make it to PFT do have the aptitude to learn on a curve.

Bryan: 16:59

Well, that's the whole idea behind aircrew selection, right, is

Dan: 17:02

Yeah.

Bryan: 17:02

To move that failure would that be upstream or downstream?

Dan: 17:07

Downstream. Yeah. Yes.

Bryan: 17:08

To move to move that failure downstream to avoid the the lost training costs and the lost time for instructors and students and all that. Right?

Dan: 17:16

And it's about that cost and time for the member as well. Right? Cause it takes years to get to PFT. Whereas if that member would be would have a more fruitful career as an armored officer as or as ATC or as a navigator, that time is better spent working towards that. But yeah, it's basically a selection course.

Bryan: 17:35

Mhmm. And do you think that that still runs true for today?

Dan: 17:41

I don't have like, I don't have any interaction with that course.

Bryan: 17:45

Yeah. This is just dance a couple years.

Dan: 17:46

But yeah, I think so. There's no nothing that you can teach in a summer long course is going to give like valuable hands and feet skills to a pilot, it's still a selection course. Now there is they do teach the basic power attitude trim, attitude power trim, the things that you're gonna work on your entire career and I still debrief professional pilots with thousands of hours on like, okay, you were slow. What should you have done first? Is it pitch down or is it add power?

Dan: 18:22

So those things still come up throughout your career all the time, But it's still a selection course.

Bryan: 18:29

Yeah. Do you remember how many of your course made it through or rather how many didn't? It's probably an easier number.

Dan: 18:35

Yeah. So ours was an anomaly. We had 22 on course and 11 were CT. Oh, wow. So we like the bloody course.

Dan: 18:46

But what had happened there, I was one of the first courses on the grobe. So they had been changing their syllabus and changing their criteria. And so they were interpreting the extra dual time that they were giving differently. So they were only giving you how much 10% of the time you'd actually flown to that point in the course.

Bryan: 19:07

Oh, instead of the course total.

Dan: 19:09

Exactly. So for some members, if they failed a flight four flights in, they were only entitled to half an hour of extra flight time. And then if they couldn't make it, they were they were sent home. So all of the people who failed on my course were given another shot.

Bryan: 19:29

I was gonna ask if they had Did they have to

Dan: 19:31

agree for No. I think they rectified the problem and they went back and offered to everybody. I know of one specifically that had already moved on in another career and didn't accept. But I know of several of my peers now that are really successful pilots with several thousand hours who did fail off course.

Bryan: 19:54

Yeah.

Intro/outro: 19:55

Which is pretty crazy. It is, but it's

Dan: 19:57

not the end. Right? If you're really if you're really driven, you can you can pursue a career in aviation Mhmm. Regardless of, you know, one failure.

Bryan: 20:05

For sure. And it also sort of shows you the razor's edge that you're on sometimes in military flight training. Like the idea that you may not make it through a course doesn't necessarily have to be the nail in the coffin for your aviation career. It may mean that you can't pursue it in the military, but it doesn't necessarily mean like, oh, you didn't make it through phase one or phase two, you know, hang hang up your dreams of flying and and go do something else.

Dan: 20:31

No. And it it really goes back to what I was saying about the learning on a curve thing Mhmm. That that never stops. Basically, until you're done your first operational tour and you've made it to AC or crew commander, whatever the equivalent is for your fleet, you're always expected to accomplish those upgrades on a timeline. So just because you're unsuccessful with that doesn't mean you don't have the aptitude to fly, it means that you're not meeting the timelines that we require.

Dan: 21:00

And part of that is driven because of the posting process and how long we actually retain members. But, yeah, lots of There's lots of opportunities to make a living in aviation.

Bryan: 21:14

Mhmm. And it's also You talk about the posting cycle and those kinds of things. It's also just the fact that we're always in need of more trained people as soon as possible. Right? Yeah.

Bryan: 21:24

Like, we don't have the the luxury of taking our time. We we just can't do it in this organization. Like, we need people always. Yeah. There's an attrition rate that has to be overcome.

Bryan: 21:37

There's operational pressures that have to be met, and we just can't take our time.

Dan: 21:42

And and sadly the the highest attrition, and this is just based on my observation not based on statistics, but it seems to be the members with the most qualifications that are usually getting out right because

Bryan: 21:54

Well, that makes sense.

Dan: 21:55

Yeah. They're hitting me twenty or twenty five years or just a good jump off point for them in their lives. And so we have to replace, you know, the standards, the training personnel, the aircraft commanders. And that that takes a lot of training to get there.

Bryan: 22:10

Yeah. Yeah. And that, like you said, that's anecdotal, that's an observation, but it does make logical sense because they are, as you said, maybe they're reaching the point in time where they're pensionable. It may just be that they have all the qualifications they need and they feel like it's time to make a change. They can easily be hired by an airline.

Bryan: 22:29

Yep. And that's what fits their life better now.

Dan: 22:32

Or it's just the end of their restricted release and it's on to another thing. Right? Find that the newer generation, there's nothing wrong with doing a ten year career and then moving on to another thing. So we we need to incorporate that with how we operate.

Bryan: 22:50

Yeah. And I'd love to see obviously, it's nice to see when people wanna make it a full, I'll call it a lifelong career or do the full twenty five years or whatever. But I think we have to I look at when I would meet Americans and so many of them are like, yeah, I'm just doing my five and then I'm gonna, you know, go back to school or and then I'm gonna fly with the airlines or depending on whatever their trade was. And I think normalizing that is not a bad thing. Like for people to do a stint in the military, whether it's, you know, a ten year ten years as a pilot or twenty five, like either way they're serving their country and it's a it's a net gain for the air force.

Dan: 23:28

Yeah, exactly.

Bryan: 23:31

On phase one, did you find your prior flight experience gave you much of an advantage over your course mates?

Dan: 23:36

Yes, absolutely.

Bryan: 23:37

Did you find that that was something like for the entirety of the course that you were still pretty much ahead of them? Do you think they caught up to you?

Dan: 23:43

Yeah. Because for me, I wasn't really tested to having to learn on a curve until I hit Moose Jaw. Yeah. Because I was already, you know, I got there, I could land, I could fly the Grove. I had done aerobatics.

Dan: 23:56

Yeah. So for me, it was just a fun summer of flying. It didn't really accomplish its purpose.

Bryan: 24:02

Well, it did but Yeah. You were just you were above where you needed to be.

Dan: 24:07

Yeah. Exactly. Whereas when I when I hit Moose Jaw and we started doing things like formation flying or low level nav, like the IF stuff, I still had I still was pretty advanced with that stuff. But the the low level NAV and formation flying, they were pretty humbling for me Yeah. Personally.

Bryan: 24:24

Yeah. And we'll get to that in a bit. I'd like to talk a bit about your time at the Rescue Coordination Center. You graduated from RMC and like most of us, you had to wait for Moose Jaw. Got your first posting which was at the Rescue Coordination Centre in Trenton, Ontario as an assistant air controller working on SAR cases.

Bryan: 24:41

Can you tell us what this job involved?

Dan: 24:43

Yeah. So the way that SAR works in Canada is that the military is responsible for aeronautical SAR response. And then we cover marine SAR response with a partnership with the coast guard. So we still task military assets on on that. And then humanitarian cases which are like missing persons or a hiker or a snowmobiler, we still will employ military resources for that, but it goes through basically a request channel from RCMP.

Dan: 25:19

All of that is employed through CJOC, which is the Joint Operational Command, which is our, you know, our expeditionary, our operational command in Canada and abroad. And it goes down through the Kayak and then down to the RCCs through the SRR commanders, which are all basically either two star generals or two star admirals.

Bryan: 25:44

What's what's an SRR? Search And Rescue Region.

Dan: 25:47

Okay. Then they're given to the search mission coordinators. So search and rescue mission mission coordinators, the SMCs, which are either coast guard marine officers or captain pilots or navs or now air ops officers who have some sort of operational experience. And they handle and persecute the case by tasking military assets, but also by phoning civilian agencies. They work within the emergency management offices in the provinces that they're in, they they basically cast a web to solve a problem.

Dan: 26:27

They're like investigators or problem solvers. The assistant that they have is there to do those phone calls or receive phone calls and log everything because everything is logged. Actually talk to the air crew to get their debriefs for searches that they've done, put it plotted on the map to figure out where they're gonna task next. Whereas the the strategy and coordination comes through that that captain position who's actually the air controller or the marine controller. So the assistant's job is to assist the air controller in managing a mission from when they receive the call and there's some sign of distress or urgency to either finding it or reducing the case because of there's no chance of survivability or it's a humanitarian case and RCMP had just asked us to do a preliminary search or something like that.

Bryan: 27:29

Okay. Really interesting. Good rundown of SAR system.

Dan: 27:33

Yeah. There's there's a lot there. It's it's actually a really complex system because it has to work with every level of civilian agencies that react to emergencies. But it's outside of the request for civil request for aid from military power from civil authorities. So if there's an ice storm, the province will declare a state of emergency and we'll ask for the military to help and we'll go in droves and we'll help.

Dan: 28:02

But this is a daily occurrence that's not reading reaching that level Right. Where the military can actually directly liaise and work with civilian organizations. So we'll talk more about that on on the Hirkers or stuff, I'm sure. But if you think about a medevac, a medevac case, when your case when you're tasked on that, there's like six different agencies, military and civilian, that are involved in that. But the end product is that, you know, a person gets picked up by the ambulance either from the hospital or from the that person's house, brought to a military aircraft, and then flown to a higher level of service

Intro/outro: 28:41

Right.

Dan: 28:41

While maintaining their current level of care the whole way. And that's it's pretty cool that we can do that.

Bryan: 28:46

Yeah. A 100%. As a young officer, how did you handle the stress of knowing that lives were on the line while you were working?

Dan: 28:53

So to be honest, I didn't really think about that too much. I was especially in my first tour, I was really hyper focused on trying to become the best pilot I could be, mastering the actual tactics and the flying of search and rescue and understanding what what happened behind the scenes.

Bryan: 29:11

But what about in terms of your role while you were at the rescue coordination center?

Dan: 29:17

Honestly, it wasn't too stressful because we had processes in place. So I just learned and followed the processes and I was never working autonomously. So I always had that mission controller who was there. And if something was out of the ordinary or was too delicate, they normally take that. So I never felt unsupported or unprepared to handle the task.

Dan: 29:49

And at the end of the day, what they teach you is that it's your job to give the best service that you possibly can, but you're not responsible for what happened to that Canadian. So you didn't get that Canadian lost or you didn't sink that Canadian's boat, you're responsible to give him the best search and rescue service that you possibly can. But even that is not always going to be successful. So you just try to be a professional the whole time and do exactly what you're supposed to do and that gives them the highest statistical chance of success.

Bryan: 30:25

Okay. Did working at the RCC inspire you to fly SAR aircraft? And if so, why?

Dan: 30:31

Yeah. It it definitely did. Before that, I hadn't thought of search and rescue. And I I had leaned towards flying the bigger newer planes like c 17 and j model Herx at that time, which were just entering service. But it definitely intrigued me because it's a mission that everyone can understand and be motivated to do.

Dan: 30:56

Even someone who is not necessarily pro military, if you tell them that you are involved in search and rescue, they're gonna say thank you. They're not gonna be political about it. The goal is just to help Canadians get home safely to their families, end stop. So I did think that that was really cool. I really enjoyed my time there and it definitely made me want to explore that.

Bryan: 31:22

Okay. What key lessons about SAR did you learn at the RCC that you still use to this day?

Dan: 31:29

The tactics have not actually changed that much. So back then it was called the National Search and Rescue Manual and now it's called the Canadian Search and Rescue Manual, the CAMSAR. That's almost the same as it used to be. They're they're redoing some stuff now, but stuff that I studied back in 2009 is still things that I was taught on the HERCO to you or taught on the Buffalo to you many years later. So a lot of the tactics were very relevant and it also every day as an operator, I talk to those mission coordinators that work at RCC.

Dan: 32:07

And so I understand what is going on on the other side. Mhmm. So it's really nice to understand. It'd be like a police officer, you know, understanding what's going on in the dispatcher's role and and what they're actually looking at. It's it's the same kind of thing.

Bryan: 32:22

For sure.

Dan: 32:22

You can see behind the curtain.

Bryan: 32:24

You have a bit of a more well rounded perspective.

Dan: 32:27

Yeah. You you understand what information they're working with and kind of what processes they're going through.

Bryan: 32:32

Yeah. And maybe even some of what they need from you as well. Yeah. So back to flight training, you completed your phase one flight training and you've proven that you've got some potential, but now it's time to move to a different world entirely and fly the CT one fifty six Harvard two on phase two in Moose Jaw. Can you give us an outline of what this course consists of?

Dan: 32:51

Yeah. So this is the meat and potatoes course. This is where they teach you all of the skills that are required and transferable to every fleet that you're gonna fly, whether it's jets, fixed wing, or rotary. And you also have to still do it on a curve. So they're gonna cover all the basic maneuvers, all the instrument flight maneuvers, emergency procedure handling, and the philosophy that we use in the military for handling emergency procedures, which is the same on every aircraft that you ever fly, the whole aviate navigate communicate concept.

Dan: 33:32

And, you know, they'll they test you. So you actually have to work under pressure and you, you know, you have to be able to show on a specific day that you've mastered what they're teaching you to the level that they need you to teach it or you need to have learned it to. And that's also a very military concept where it's like, I'm gonna come in today and I'm gonna expect you to do task x y and zed to this level of proficiency. And if you can't do it on that specific day, well, you failed the test and you've got to go work on So it was definitely an eye opener for me because it was challenging, but it was also a blast. It was a lot of fun and the Harvard was and is still a really cool airplane.

Bryan: 34:19

How did you find flying the Harvard?

Dan: 34:22

After I got over the initial like nausea because and I'm not someone that's ever been airsick but even for me just the angle you're sitting on and the engine, it just made me nauseous for the first couple flights.

Bryan: 34:36

It's super common on the Harvard specifically. I also felt sick on my first one or two flights and I'm also not prone to air sickness at all.

Dan: 34:46

Yeah. I've actually never been air sick in an in an aircraft, but that's the closest I've ever I've ever been. But yeah, it's a it's a hot rod. If if the globe is a Ferrari, like this thing is a Rolls Royce with an extra engine and it's pretty cool. I'd never moved at those speeds before and you're going really fast.

Dan: 35:11

And the 60 and twos that you do in the circuit, that's their standard way of moving the plane around.

Bryan: 35:18

Right. And that being a 60 degree turn

Intro/outro: 35:20

at two gs. That's right.

Dan: 35:21

Yeah. That's not something I'd ever actually done before. So it it was definitely eye opening, but your only job when you're on that course is to learn to fly. There's nothing else required of you. So it was full immersion for six months, study, fly, hang out with friends, work on studying and flying and rinse repeat for six months.

Bryan: 35:47

So

Dan: 35:47

I thought it was really awesome.

Bryan: 35:49

It's a fun course. It's a stressful course, but it can be really fun.

Dan: 35:52

Very stressful. And it's easy to forget this much later in my career, but I still think back to while I was on course, I would have all of these contingency plans. Like, okay, well, if I fail this test and I don't make it and I get CT'd which is c's trained, I'll ask to go back and I'll finish my masters and then maybe I'll get out and I'll I'll be a history professor. And it's just weird to be a relatively high performer. I'd never really struggled to pass anything, but still be thinking of these backup plans as like a real possible.

Bryan: 36:29

Yeah. Well, that's that's moose jaw. Right? Like, even if you're doing really well, you're only ever a couple flights away from being out, like a couple bad flights away. Yeah.

Bryan: 36:39

And you do think about those things. You think about like, what else can I do? What's my backup plan? Even if even if you've never struggled before.

Dan: 36:47

Yeah. It was definitely an interesting place but it was really rewarding and fun. Yeah.

Bryan: 36:54

Now we hinted at this earlier but did you have any particular challenges while making your way through phase two?

Dan: 37:00

I do not like formation flying. I did not like it and I was not very good at it. But I didn't know that going in. But then when I actually got in the plane and I got where I thought was correct and my instructor was like, no no, you gotta go a lot closer, closer, closer, closer. I was super uncomfortable.

Dan: 37:17

So I kept on getting downgraded because where I would settle was like one and a half times where they wanted you. And I could only hold the position where they wanted me to for a short time and then I would slide out. So I barely made the grade and form.

Bryan: 37:32

Okay.

Dan: 37:33

And it wasn't really due to hands and feet. It was due to personal limits, would say. And I just did not like being close to other aircraft. So that the turning rejoin, which is like a thing and some people love it, that was like my nightmare. I hated it.

Bryan: 37:48

So It's pretty hairy the first time you do it. Like a turning rejoin, how I describe this on an audio format? Basically, the plane you're joining on is in the distance and you fly an intercept angle on it and it's in a slight turn. And at the last second as you get the feeling like holy crap, we're gonna hit, you bank your plane even more to stop yourself and then you're on their wing.

Dan: 38:13

Yeah. It'd be like in a single lane roundabout. If you were trying to accelerate quickly, go faster than another car that was already in the roundabout, and then end up beside it in parallel with it. Even though there's not a lane there and you're not supposed to do that. That's what it felt like to me the whole time.

Dan: 38:32

It's like, I'm not supposed to be doing this. Your entire flying career, you're taught look for other aircraft, avoid other aircraft. If an aircraft is not moving in your windscreen, it's a problem because it means you're on a collision course. Where it's in form, if the aircraft is not moving in your windscreen, that's great. And it's growing in your windscreen?

Dan: 38:54

Even better. That's what you're supposed to be doing. Yeah, I didn't love form.

Bryan: 38:59

How did you overcome that challenge?

Dan: 39:02

Well, you have to pass in order to pass the course. I wanted to pass the course. So I actually had an instructor. I'm not sure if he's in or not, but his last name was Power. And he called himself a form hater as well, but he was a good instructor and obviously proficient at it.

Dan: 39:22

And he was like, just gotta suck it up for two more flights, just get your level four and then move on so that you never have to do form in your life again. And if they ask you to be a fighter pilot, don't do it. So yeah. So we got through it.

Bryan: 39:36

Okay. What is the biggest lesson you learned from phase two that continues to influence you as a pilot today?

Dan: 39:45

Stress management, resiliency, and sleep sanitization are just so critical. And by that, mean, I struggled I struggled with sleep a lot in Moose Jaw

Intro/outro: 39:58

for me the

Dan: 39:59

first time in my life. And we actually they had resources there, but the biggest change was just don't work in your bedroom. Don't study in your bedroom. Don't use your computer there so that your bedroom is just for sleep. And those are those are skills that I learned because I'd never been in that much stress before that I I still employ and teach and teach my kids to this day.

Bryan: 40:28

Yeah. I can relate to that. I also had a lot of sleep issues in Moose Jaw for the first time in my life And it was a struggle to be honest. I didn't really get past it until I would say phase three consistently. And actually even to this day from time to time, it will still get me.

Bryan: 40:46

So that's a tough one for sure.

Dan: 40:49

Yeah. It requires a lot of discipline to realize that the distress you're under is okay and that you will be able to get through it. My mantra is like, if something is stressing me out for tomorrow or there's something that I don't want to do that I know I have to do, I just think to myself, well, do your best job and in six hours, it's gonna be over. And we can't stop time so there's no way to stop that. It's like public speaking.

Dan: 41:21

I don't love public speaking. It makes me nervous, but there are times where you have to stand in front of the unit and deliver the message, have the conversation, and you just do it. Then it's done.

Bryan: 41:33

Yeah. When you finished your course, were selected to go multi engine. Was that what you wanted at the time?

Dan: 41:40

Yes. Especially after it had been pointed out to me that I was not fit for fighters. And the the lifestyle of the helicopter pilot is not something that I that I sought. Yeah. So, yeah, I I definitely really wanted Balty.

Bryan: 41:54

Okay. When you arrived at phase three multi engine training relaxed than phase two?

Dan: 42:01

Yeah. It was a lot different. No one there was really concerned about whether or not they were gonna make it. It was a when they were gonna pass, and it was about absorbing as much knowledge while you were there that you could.

Bryan: 42:17

Yeah. I found the same. I found that phase two is like a prove yourself type environment, and phase three was more like a we're gonna prepare you now to be a professional type course.

Dan: 42:30

Exactly. Yeah.

Bryan: 42:32

How did you like learning to fly the c 90 b king air?

Dan: 42:35

I thought it was really cool. Yeah. I loved autopilot. That was awesome. I also loved the sim because the the Harvard had a had a simulator but it didn't move.

Dan: 42:47

Right? And so the the full motion sim on on the King Air was was really neat. Mhmm. And I felt a lot better prepared for emergencies and stuff like that. But just being in an aircraft that had enough range to be able to travel across the continent was really cool.

Bryan: 43:08

Yeah. The King Air is a big step up in a lot of ways, which is kind of funny because it's not like that much bigger. I mean, is, but it's not huge. It's still in in terms of a multi engine aircraft, a fairly small aircraft.

Dan: 43:21

Yeah.

Bryan: 43:22

But it's just such a big step up. It's the first time you're dealing with a crew environment. I really enjoyed the King Air. I like you said, the autopilot is nice to have, especially after all the hand flying on the previous courses. Yeah.

Bryan: 43:37

I even like the switches and stuff on the King Air. Like it's got classic airplane toggle switches and stuff and

Dan: 43:42

Yep. Absolutely.

Bryan: 43:43

Yeah. Like, the fuel panel is very satisfying. It is. And, like you said, the sim, is a huge step up. Like, that sim is is world class and we can do calls and stuff in that sim.

Bryan: 43:57

Right?

Dan: 43:57

Yep. Yeah. Absolutely.

Bryan: 43:58

Yeah. So that's you know how good the fidelity is if you're able to do your yearly qualifications in a simulator versus in the real aircraft.

Dan: 44:09

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's I think it's a really good platform to transition you to the operational fleets. Obviously, as you said, it's not a Herc, it's not an Aurora.

Dan: 44:20

It is a lot smaller, But it's big enough that you can employ a crew concept and you can teach all of the basics that are gonna transition you really well into the operational communities. So I'm sure there's still a big learning curve for the turbofan fleets. You know, the the new a three thirty or the c 17, like that's still a different aircraft. Mhmm. But any turboprop, which is most of the cockpits for for multi engine, a turbo prop is a turbo prop.

Dan: 44:53

Yeah. And it's they're they're fairly similar.

Bryan: 44:57

Yeah. There's depending on the age of them, like, as you know on on the Herc and I and we knew as with basically the same engine and prop on the Aurora. There's a difference in the age of what age of technology it was developed in for in terms of the mechanisms of how it works. But essentially, they they all run by the same principles.

Dan: 45:17

And I've seen all errors. Like, the the Buffalo was early sixties technology. The Herc is eighties technology. And the c 90 b is February. Yeah.

Dan: 45:29

'9 nineteen nineties really.

Bryan: 45:31

Yeah. But a lot changed.

Dan: 45:32

Yeah. A p a p t six is a magical

Bryan: 45:34

It's yes. PT six is the engine on, on the King Air, but it's also the engine in the Harvard on a Pilatus PC 12. It's one of the most reliable and common turboprop engines out there. Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan: 45:50

What did you find was the most challenging part of phase three? Or did you find there weren't that many challenges on phase three?

Dan: 45:59

Yeah. I I didn't find phase three challenging. I found it really rewarding. Mhmm. It's like when you get to take an elective course in university that that just piques your interest and is totally up your alley.

Dan: 46:12

That's what phase three was for me. So it was all really cool, all super applicable, and I enjoyed pretty much every aspect of phase three. Did you

Bryan: 46:28

have any strategies that you employed to kind of keep yourself ahead so that it didn't become a big challenging experience?

Dan: 46:36

I chair flew a lot and I still do in my career. So emergencies and and all of the SOPs when it was, you know, this happens and then you need to do this five step process. And if you don't if you skip a step, you're gonna fail or do it wrong. And there's there's a reason for that. It's it's safety related.

Dan: 46:57

But for those, would sit in my sit in my room and close my eyes and visualize and just chair fly all of those procedures. Yeah. And just go in with a blank slate and try to learn everything that they were teaching me.

Bryan: 47:10

Yeah. I'm a huge fan of chair flying. Melissa is probably going to roll her eyes when she edits this to hear me say this again. But chair flying is just absolutely critical, especially within military flight training when you're getting as we've talked about, it's a very efficient process and you only get so many kicks at the can. So giving yourself extra essentially extra training on your own is crucial.

Dan: 47:32

Well, and it's still it doesn't lose its usefulness once you're qualified. I'll just say that because I have a fair amount of experience and I've been pretty successful. I still chair fly my emergencies every Sunday. I go through them. It doesn't take long, it only takes ten minutes.

Dan: 47:49

But when you have the context and you understand where all the switches are and why you're doing each movement that you're doing, All you're doing is building the right muscle memory so that in the in the time your your bucket is bigger and you can handle more stress and still do the right things.

Bryan: 48:04

Oh, yeah. Running emergencies was something that I did. I did it daily until I felt really comfortable with it. And then, like you said, maybe maybe do it twice a week or once a week once you're at a stage in in life on the aircraft where you feel very comfortable. But Yeah.

Bryan: 48:20

Something you should never stop doing.

Dan: 48:22

Yeah. A 100%. Yeah.

Bryan: 48:25

So a big part of phase three is flying through the mountains on a cross country. You've spent a considerable amount of time flying in the mountains in your career. What was the biggest lesson you learned about mountain flying on phase three?

Dan: 48:37

Yeah. That's a great one actually. And I still remember the approach into Cranbrook. And that's that you need to think ahead and you need to be proactive. You have to be a thinking pilot.

Dan: 48:49

You can't be a reactive hands and feet pilot because that's not enough. So the mountains are big and they're unforgiving. And obviously those those lessons apply to all flying. But when you're literally 10,000 feet high on an approach because you haven't thought things through and you opted not to do the shuttle descent that's depicted, you feel pretty foolish.

Bryan: 49:15

Yeah. Yeah. Mountain flying is humbling. It can be for sure. I'll just say, like, when I came back to begin FIC, flight instructor course here in Portage, and we did our first trip into the mountains, I was humbled by the the importance.

Bryan: 49:31

Like, you're always doing performance calculations and those are always important, but obviously they become absolutely critical once you're in the mountains, like that's what's going to save your life. There's just a lot more planning to be done. There's a lot more thinking ahead like you said. And there's a lot of, there's a comfort level that has to be built. There's a certain level of trust that the procedures are gonna keep you safe.

Bryan: 49:52

And it's one thing on a beautiful day to fly the procedures where you can see the mountains and it's actually really a neat experience and you're getting these incredible views if you have a moment to look up. But it's another thing entirely to maybe see the peak of a mountain poking through the clouds and then to descend into those clouds and just trust that these procedures are going to keep you from hitting a rock wall.

Dan: 50:15

Yep. Exactly. And so you better understand the procedures that you're flying and be ahead of the planes that you don't deviate.

Bryan: 50:23

Yep. What did it feel like to march up on parade and get your wings?

Dan: 50:28

Yeah. That was awesome. It was like a a dream come true. And, you know, it's it was very nostalgic for me as well. Like, doing cadets, you do a similar Mhmm.

Dan: 50:39

Ceremony when you get your glider swings and when you get your private pilot's license wings. Yeah. It felt like the successful culmination of years and years and years of work.

Bryan: 50:51

Yeah. Which it was.

Dan: 50:52

And then they tell you on parade, this is just the beginning of your journey. The work starts here. And on parade, that doesn't really sink in, but it does sink in a few years later when you're once again stressed and under the gun and trying to make another upgrade and make it happen.

Bryan: 51:10

Flight training in the military is very cyclical. Every time you make it, whether that's getting your wings or next is qualifying on your operational aircraft, and then the next thing is upgrading to aircraft commander, and then the next could be becoming standards or an instructor pilot or whatever. There's always another iteration of, oh, I made it. Oh, guess what? There's another level and you don't know anything yet and you need to keep your nose to the grindstone and stay humble and keep working.

Dan: 51:42

I will say that that process is one of the most rewarding things that you can have if you're like me. It's like a real life RPG. There's no room to stagnate in your life. Yeah. You're constantly working towards the next upgrade, the next qualification, the next thing.

Dan: 52:01

And then in my career, you get to the end, you operate there for a little bit, then they post you to a new fleet. And you start again. And it's faster and it's easier, but you go through all the process and then they post you to a new fleet and you start again and then you get to the end and it's kind of cool because I have never in my was this twenty years now in the military? I've never felt like I was stagnating. I've always had a near and long term goal that I'm working towards.

Dan: 52:30

Mhmm. It's yeah. It's like a real life RPG.

Bryan: 52:33

Yeah. And I think it's it's rare that a career will provide you with a constant challenge. And I mean, obviously, there are careers out there that will. But Yeah. To have those goals, to always have something that you're working towards, like, it's a very fortunate thing to have.

Dan: 52:49

Now now some people hate that. And it's not for everybody. And so there is room to slow that down and not be under the gun and not suffer that stress your whole career if you don't want to.

Bryan: 53:06

Well, there's people who stay line pilots on a Yeah. Squadron or within a fleet their entire career.

Dan: 53:11

Yeah. Exactly. But there's there is opportunities to switch things up and challenge yourself as well. Mhmm.

Bryan: 53:19

So as we've already mentioned, you passed phase three and were selected to fly the CC one fifteen Buffalo with four four two transport and rescue squadron in Comox BC. Was that what you wanted? And if so, why the buff over the c one thirty Hercules?

Dan: 53:33

Nope. That wasn't what I wanted. My first reaction was what is the buffalo? Like, didn't really know. I didn't expect it and but they had a slot and they needed it filled.

Dan: 53:50

And one of the instructors on my phase three was an ex Buffalo pilot, and then he pulled me aside and he's like, hey, listen. Trust me, you want this. You're gonna be good out there. Because I had asked for all of the Herc fleets and then I had also asked for c seventeens and I had also asked for Jays. So Buffalo wasn't even on my top five.

Dan: 54:09

Yeah. And that's a that's a trend throughout my career. I have never ever been posted where I thought I was gonna be posted or where I was initially asking to get posted and I've always had just incredible postings. And every posting seems to get better and more enjoyable. But I think it's with the energy that you put in is what you're gonna receive back multiplied by a factor.

Bryan: 54:35

A 100%.

Dan: 54:36

So I was grateful to that instructor for pulling me aside. Basically telling me like, hey, don't be a spoiled brat. You're gonna like it, enjoy it. And I went out there with a good attitude and it and it was it was incredible.

Bryan: 54:52

Did you learn during your time as a student on phase three that influenced how you conducted yourself as an instructor later in life?

Dan: 55:01

It's that enthusiasm that really matters. So as a student or even as an officer, the negative influences or the people that are kind of ho or whatever, you generally just forget about those. You tune them out and they're just noise and you do your job and you move on. But there are a few people in your career who were really enthusiastic or really passionate, but in the right way that you will always remember and and you can take some of that motivation and incorporate it into your own drive. Mhmm.

Dan: 55:36

And I I got to see that on on phase three. There were a couple instructors that were very passionate and positive about what they were doing, And I've tried to take that and make that a part of how I interact with subordinates, how I teach flying, and just how I am. And I think if you're enthusiastic about something, other people will get excited about it. Even if that's a week long trip to Winnipeg to fly nights every single night, if you're enthusiastic about the opportunity that you're getting, everyone else on your detachment is gonna be enthusiastic.

Bryan: 56:13

Absolutely. Yeah. It's up to you to set the tone. Yeah. I had a standards pilot tell me that when I was upgrading to a crew commander on the Aurora.

Bryan: 56:23

And it's true, like you can show up in the middle of the night for a flight and say, hey guys, like I know this kind of sucks, we're all really tired, but you know, let's push through. Or you can show up and be like, okay guys, you know, I know we're a little tired, but tonight's a great opportunity. We've got a chance to play with a real sub tonight and that's, you know, and you go from there. Right?

Dan: 56:44

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Always I always joke when we night fly on the Herc, it's always the active Sarcrew that's training, right? And when we land and we're done, I'm like, okay guys, I'll see you at three in the morning for a Sarcrow.

Dan: 56:58

Everybody's like, come on. But if that happens, I've never really had a sarco that afterwards I was like, Oh man, I wish I hadn't done that. It's always a very rewarding experience.

Bryan: 57:13

We're down to our last question for this section of our chat. If you could give a student who is starting their flight training today a piece of advice, what would that be?

Dan: 57:22

Persevere and stay positive. There's a large body of work to be accomplished and it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. So one bad day or one bad week or getting sick and missing flights or bad weather or whatever, that's not going to derail your career. Having a great attitude and a good work ethic are going to get you way farther than raw talent and natural skill. So just stick with it and be resilient.

Dan: 57:55

Resiliency doesn't mean that you don't get bogged down and you don't get upset and break down. It means that every time something beats you down, you get back up. And that's what's important.

Bryan: 58:04

Yeah. Okay, Dan. That's gonna wrap up part one of our chat for today. It was great to hear about your time in flight training and I'm really looking forward to hearing about your time in the operational SAR world as well as the future of SAR and the c two nine five Kingfisher when we return for part two. Thanks for being here today.

Dan: 58:21

You're welcome.

Bryan: 58:23

Alright. That wraps up part one of our chat with my good friend, Major Dan Conway, deputy commanding officer of four thirteen Transport and Rescue Squadron and RCAF pilot. For our next episode, we'll check back in with Dan to hear all about his operational career, including his time on the Buffalo and the Hercules, as well as the future of Tsar in the CC two nine five Kingfisher. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?

Bryan: 58:51

You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.

Bryan: 59:14

Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.

Intro/outro: 59:19

Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.