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Intro/Outro: 00:30

Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set. PD switches.

Intro/Outro: 00:35

Normal. Doors and hatches. Closed. Lay down. Stroblade.

Intro/Outro: 00:38

On. Research check-in. Complete with your left. Engineer. Start number two.

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Starting to. Wing three one zero ten, pilot project podcast. Clear takeoff, Runway 31 left.

Bryan: 00:58

Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Skies Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is captain Aaron Edwards, a Canadian capsule communicator or CAPCOM currently working with NASA and winner of the 2024 LC McGill award. Erin, welcome to the show, and thanks so much for being here.

Erin: 01:20

It's a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Bryan: 01:22

So today for part one of our chat with Erin, we're going to talk about her journey working in the naval reserve and flying with four two seven special operations aviation squadron. We'll also be examining the theme that has been present throughout Erin's career that is that anything is possible. But before we jump into any of that, let's go through Erin's bio. Erin Edwards was born in Port Moody, British Columbia. She enrolled in the naval reserves in 2010 as a maritime surface or Mars officer as a member of HMCS Discovery in Vancouver, British Columbia.

Bryan: 01:51

She completed her ship's team diving officer qualification in 2012 and Mars four training in 02/2013. During her naval service, she was awarded the Grouse Memorial Award for professionalism at sea and the Welland Shield for leadership. Erin transferred to the Royal Canadian Air Force as a pilot in late two thousand thirteen. Having held a private pilot's license since 02/2002, Erin earned her military wings in 2016 and was awarded the Portage La Prairie award for professionalism in her graduating class. She was then posted to four two seven special operations aviation squadron in Petawawa, Ontario to fly the CH one forty six Griffin helicopter.

Bryan: 02:25

She completed special operations tactical aviation course selection in 02/2019. During her posting, Erin participated in operational deployments as a pilot and flight safety officer. She deployed to Iraq in 2020 and 2021 flying the CH one forty six Griffin amassing over 300 combat hours and earning the general campaign star expedition medal with bar for her overseas service. She also served as four two seven squadron's flight safety officer, standards and training flight operations officer, and created the space liaison officer position while completing a master's in space science. In 02/2023, Erin was posted to the Johnson Space Center in three Canadian space divisions billet as the first ever Canadian astronaut coordination officer.

Bryan: 03:06

She was quickly appointed as NASA's deputy branch chief for crew operations, the first time a non astronaut has held this position. She and her small staff are responsible for roughly 50 NASA and international astronauts currently not assigned to a specific mission while providing direct support to the Canadian Corps of Astronauts in Houston. Erin is also qualified as a NASA capsule commander, the critical voice link between the astronauts aboard the International Space Station and the technical control team on the ground. Her qualification marks the first time a non astronaut Canadian has held this vital position in mission control. For her efforts and tremendously impactful work well beyond the original scope of this new position, Erin was awarded the Northern Lights Aero Foundation's LC McGill award in 2024 in the government category.

Bryan: 03:48

In what little spare time she has, Erin reminds herself that she is human by playing rugby, cycling, struggling with space related Lego, or reading a good book with a coffee. Alright. So let's jump into it and talk about your career. So you lived a couple lives before you managed to get into the RCAF as a pilot, but what sparked your love of aviation?

Erin: 04:08

You know, I think you'd probably have to go back and like ask my mom maybe, because apparently it's always been since I was a kid. My grandfather was a Spitfire pilot in the second world war, but apparently I've just always had an interest in planes and rockets and that kind of thing. Might be my brother's fault too. He was kind of into that stuff, but I ended up joining the Air Cadets at age 12 and that kind of just spurred my interest even more. So I think it started when I was pretty young.

Bryan: 04:36

Yeah. That's awesome. It's kind of in your blood almost with that family heritage.

Erin: 04:40

Yeah. I'm pretty lucky that way.

Bryan: 04:42

So as part of your time in cadets, you got your pilot's license in 02/2002. How did that early achievement influence your career aspirations?

Erin: 04:49

Yeah. Good question. It wasn't a given. I had to work really hard in the Air Cadet program because they really emphasized academics. I as much as I tried, I wasn't a stellar student all the time.

Erin: 05:01

So I tried to make sure that everything else I was doing in cadets was making up for some of those little deficiencies here and there. I didn't get my glider scholarship when I first applied. So I had one year left before I had to age out and I'd put however many years into trying to get that scholarship. But when I finally got it and was able to get my private pilot's license, I think it reminded me or showed me that even though there are some things that are going to be difficult for me, namely math, that if you put your mind to it, you can actually achieve those things. So it gave me a tiny bit of confidence.

Erin: 05:33

I've never been a particularly confident person, but that was like the first step that allowed me to sort of think that, hey, like if I work hard enough, I could probably actually make this happen for myself. So it was important that way.

Bryan: 05:46

That's pretty transformative to have that experience. And I think that's something that a lot of people who join cadets can relate to. Like, that organization really gives you a sense of confidence and a sense of, hey, I can take on challenges. I can do hard things. If I put my mind to this, I can accomplish it.

Erin: 06:03

Yeah. I totally agree. It was a fantastic program. And I think what was helpful too is it felt like if you put in a 100%, you'd get that same amount back. And I wasn't quite seeing that with school and academics.

Erin: 06:15

I saw it with sports a little bit, but the program would meet you exactly where you were and would reward you for effort and putting in extra time. So I thought it was a good way to kind of set my foundation, I think, growing up.

Bryan: 06:27

Yeah. I had a very similar experience going through the flying scholarship program in Air Cadets. And the first year I did it, I was a little young. I think I was 15 maybe. And it was challenging.

Bryan: 06:39

A lot of the academics were kind of over my head, but I said, okay. I obviously, I didn't get selected that year. I said, okay, I'm going to work hard and come back to the next year. And then I was able to put in that work and it paid off. So I totally agree.

Bryan: 06:52

Can you tell us about your career before you joined the military?

Erin: 06:55

Yeah. It's definitely random. I think if anyone actually looked at my resume, they'd be like, this isn't the same person. But my first application to the air force didn't I wasn't successful. So I decided, well, I still had this kind of super far off aspiration of being an astronaut.

Erin: 07:13

That'd been a thing I'd wanted to do since I was quite young. So I'm like, well, not all astronauts are pilots. There are some astronauts maybe that are geologists. So I decided maybe going into a geology related trade would be an interesting job. I also liked physical sciences and it was a little bit easier than trying to become a medical doctor or something like that.

Erin: 07:34

So I ended up working in the mining industry for a few years, mostly on the environmental reclamation side, but I did a fair bit of time away in really small camps, picking up samples and doing sample lines and organizing all that kind of stuff as a technical manager for some of these companies. And it was really interesting work being up in the middle of nowhere sometimes with some really hilarious geologists. So I did that for a little bit. And then I had this idea to, I guess, exercise the other side of my brain. I actually ended up opening and owning a small clothing store and an art gallery in Downtown Vancouver at the same time.

Bryan: 08:10

No way.

Erin: 08:11

Yeah, apparently I always like to be busy. So it was a good way I'm realizing now as much as carrying a little bit of debt from a store during a recession when I had to close it wasn't the greatest idea, and also then losing my job and mining because of that whole thing. But what I realized is that through deciding to open a business, having a vision, and then creating that physically in your environment and making it happen is another skillset that actually comes in handy. It's not always directly relatable. I'm never going to own a store again.

Erin: 08:39

But taking your vision and making that happen is a skill set that I don't think I would have exercised otherwise. So my life was a little strange, I guess you might say, before I joined the military, hanging out in Downtown Vancouver, involved in the arts community a fair bit while also working in geology. But all of those experiences have a way of coming back. And then I figured maybe it was time to look for something else and ended up joining the Naval Reserve in 2010.

Bryan: 09:07

Yeah. That's so interesting. So I didn't know that about the store, which is crazy. And I guess there's a theme there, like you said, that you do like to be busy because I imagine you were already fairly busy with the geology gig. And you also mentioned that that was kind of you were trying to think of, like, career paths that may lead to being in the space field.

Bryan: 09:26

So I guess even back then, that was already a goal.

Erin: 09:28

Yeah. It was. And obviously, open opening an art gallery wasn't really on the path to entering space. But I think during the recession, or just before the recession in 02/2007, 02/2008, I was just trying to find things to do to occupy me that I found challenging. So working in geology certainly was one path, but with the recession, I didn't really feel like that was a path that I'd be able to continue on.

Erin: 09:53

So I kind of reevaluated where I was at that time in my 20s and the Naval Reserve seemed like an interesting option. I had applied again to pilot, but I went to aircrew selection, but didn't hear back. So I decided to, you know what, give the Navy a try. They do some interesting stuff too. So it was an interesting way to get into the military, all these sort of twists and turns, but I learned a lot in the Naval Reserve and I am actually fairly thankful I started there, I think.

Erin: 10:23

I think some of the skills I learned becoming a Mars officer and going through that whole training process in 2010 through 2012 or so put me in good stead to be successful when I was stressed out trying to do flight training later on.

Bryan: 10:38

Yeah, I can believe that for sure. Before we jump into your time in the Navy, would you say there was any lessons you carried forward from this part of your career with owning a shop, working in geology, and that you carried forward into your military life?

Erin: 10:51

Yeah. Time management, probably. Time management. And to be honest, anyone who's ever worked in geology or in that field before knows that there are all kinds of characters that are attracted to working in geology. And you find yourself in a camp with 12 people in the middle of nowhere, below the Arctic Circle.

Erin: 11:09

And you learn how to get along with pretty much anyone in very interesting circumstance. So working on a boat with people or working in an aircraft kind of overseas in camp kind of environment, I think those skills to be honest are probably some of the most applicable. And then obviously time management from when I was working full time and also owning a store, trying to keep everything together. So yeah.

Bryan: 11:32

Oh, man. That must have just been crazy.

Erin: 11:34

Might be why I have so much gray hair now. I'm not sure.

Bryan: 11:39

So as you mentioned, you started life in the military in the naval reserve in 02/2010. Why did you join the navy, and what trade did you join us?

Erin: 11:47

Yeah. So the navy was not something I'd ever considered before because I was always all about the air force and planes and really jets, which is interesting. We can talk about that later since I ended up flying helicopters and they're way better. Yeah, the Naval Reserve was actually presented to me as an option at the recruiting center and I didn't know much about it, but the fellow that was helping me with my application said, You know what, being a Mars officer is just like being a pilot, but on a boat. I'm like, All right, that sounds kind of interesting.

Erin: 12:17

So I ended up joining HMCS Discovery in Vancouver. And the Mars officer trade sounded kind interesting to me because you're responsible essentially for all the operational aspects of a ship at sea. So whether it's navigating or officer of watch, managing the flex on the schedule, whether you're doing a special evolution or something like that, it seemed like a really interesting job that was very varied And the training seemed kind of cool too. So you're working a lot with, I think they call it Eckpins, it might be the same thing, but the navigational system and trying to fight a ship and all of the other things you're supposed to learn as a Mars officer seemed pretty cool. And I didn't dislike boats.

Erin: 12:51

I mean, I am from Vancouver. I grew up on the coast. So it seemed like a really neat way to spend a few weeks out of the year as a reservist. And I ended up getting a lot out of that training. HMC at Discovery treated me really well and I made some really cool friends and met some really amazing mentors on ship as well.

Erin: 13:08

So it ended up being a really useful experience.

Bryan: 13:11

It's interesting. So I've heard this before and you mentioned that the recruiter said this, that being a Mars officer is like being a pilot of the ship. Once you actually experienced it, do you think that that was accurate?

Erin: 13:22

Not quite. It was effective though at getting me to sign on the dotted line, but you are definitely a manager of several systems and you're working with a crew. So there are some similarities. I don't actually drive it, that's the helms person's job, but you're managing where you're going, if you're going to be there on time and making sure we're going at the right speed and managing all the systems as well through the various people that are responsible for motor room and that kind of thing. And definitely the aspect of working as a member of a crew is similar, but not quite like flying a helicopter.

Bryan: 13:56

Yeah, that's fair. But there are skills that overlap to an extent.

Erin: 14:00

A 100%. I think, like I said, I'm not sure I would have been successful in flight training if I hadn't learned how to how to work as a member of a team when you're super tired in the middle of the night in on a ship.

Bryan: 14:12

Yeah. So at this point, that was two unsuccessful attempts to join the RCAF. What did you learn from this experience?

Erin: 14:20

That honestly, you can categorize those as failures and just never try again, or you can take that information, learn from it and try a different path. And I think that's also been a bit of a common theme throughout my life is my first attempt at something might not be successful. Kind of like I didn't get the power scholarship the first time I applied for it in cadets. It took me three tries to get into the air force over eight years, but that's okay. We got there eventually, but some of the doors that opened because I didn't get that thing the first time were super beneficial.

Erin: 14:52

So I like to sort of now categorize failures as opportunities, definitely, because there's some things that you learn if you actually sit down and take a look at what's going on around you that there might be other opportunities if you allow yourself to see that and just kind of work past a little bit of that ego hit. So yeah, not great that it took forever, but at the same time, I don't think I would have changed the path that I took to get to where I am today. I think I've learned too much in these different paths that I had to get here. So they've all been beneficial.

Bryan: 15:23

Well, it's such an interesting story too. And you have such varied experiences because of it. You know, it's a recurring theme on this show that I just hear this over and over again from guests that these unexpected turns in your career are often some of the best things that could have happened to you. And it sounds like that's true for you as well.

Erin: 15:40

Yeah. Absolutely.

Bryan: 15:42

So during your time with HMCS Discovery in Vancouver, British Columbia, you completed your ship's team diving officer qualification. What did that training involve and how are ship's divers employed?

Erin: 15:53

Yeah. So that was an option that came up that we could try and attempt the ship's team diving course. I thought it sounded pretty cool. Divers, at least the ship's team divers are responsible for a little bit of port security and then whatever maintenance that might be required, a lot of hull cleaning as well. And on occasion, if someone drops something overboard that we have to retrieve, you go do that as well.

Erin: 16:15

But you also do some very, very basic, at least we used to learn how to remove certain types of mines from the hulls of ships as well. So the whole process seemed interesting. But I think what I was most interested in as much as I love diving was the aspect that the course was physically quite demanding as well. And I've always enjoyed sports and I've liked to push myself. And so it felt like this would be a good opportunity to kind of get two things.

Erin: 16:40

One, learn something cool about diving and two, challenge myself as a relatively small individual hauling around a couple dive tanks and all your weights and stuff. So it was, I think it's five or six weeks. I don't recall. It's a long time ago now. And I remember a lot of running, a lot of yelling, a lot of cheese and Oreos as BMS.

Bryan: 17:02

And for the audience, BMS is just between meal supplement.

Erin: 17:06

And a lot of swimming, but the course was pretty awesome. We had some sweet staff and the folks on the course were really cool too, but they put you through your paces for sure to make sure, especially as an officer, ship's team diving officer, that you are aware of the fact that you're responsible for the safety of your divers in some pretty tricky situations. It's not without risk having divers below the water working under a vessel. And that was a good way too that I realized sort of afterwards and like, Hey, I never really had leadership skills that I was aware of before, but you kind of start to learn these on the way on courses like that, where it's put into focus for you that, Hey, these young divers are your responsibility and make sure you are dotting your Is and crossing your Ts. I will say though, I'm still not a very good swimmer.

Erin: 17:56

I wasn't a very good swimmer on the course. I was a good runner, so I'd always go back and help people during the run. But there was a couple folks that would always come back and help me on the swim so I wasn't by myself as the last person coming in all the time. But you definitely learn how to work as a team. All suffered together and each of us had our own sort of skills and weaknesses.

Erin: 18:15

And my weakness for whatever reason is still surface swimming, but I passed a swim test here at NASA. So I'm allowed to dive in the big research pool that they have here, but it was still a struggle. So just something about my body type. We're just not built for swimming.

Bryan: 18:33

That sounds very intense. Like, there's a lot more to that than I would have thought, to be honest. I didn't realize there was such a process to become qualified as a diver. Like, I knew there would be the the diving training, but I didn't realize there would be so much of the physical training, and it it sounds like essentially a selection.

Erin: 18:49

I mean, to a certain extent, I think they wanted you to understand that diving is is not an easy trade. Like clearance divers, import inspection divers are on a whole another level, but ship steam diving is still quite difficult and the conditions can be challenging too. I remember doing an ice dive in Kingston actually in a dry suit. And even though I had as much fleece as I could fit under the dry suit, it was still super And I remember thinking, I don't know how I'm supposed to complete this task. I can't remember what it was we were doing, but my hands were getting super cold.

Erin: 19:20

So they just want to make sure that you're physically set and ready to do your job. So it was cool. But yeah, it definitely pushed me to a different physicality than I was expecting out of a course. And I really enjoyed that aspect of it too. I will say the morning swims and some of, I can't repeat them here, but some of the things the POs would say to encourage you to swim faster are things I still chuckle about today.

Erin: 19:46

And I'm still in contact with a couple of those divers. Yes, I remember one of them saying something about not needing a stopwatch. I was so slow in the water, they needed a sundial and there's a bunch of expletives around that. But learning to push yourself in difficult circumstances when you're really tired, like it's just another skill set that you have. I ended up diving a little bit after I was qualified, but I transferred shortly after that, but it's still something I'm pretty proud of because I didn't think I wasn't always sure I'd be able to pass it.

Erin: 20:15

It was I just found it a challenging course.

Bryan: 20:18

So you mentioned diving for things that people drop off, like drop overboard. Are we talking about, like, hey. I dropped my car keys, or are we talking about, like, hey. I dropped a really expensive piece of equipment overboard.

Erin: 20:31

The only time I was involved in that was, hey. I dropped the ceremonial sport overboard. But Then there's a surprising number of golf balls in Harbor. I had no idea. I don't know what people are doing in Esquimalt there, but, there's tons of interesting things in the bottom of Esquimalt Harbor.

Erin: 20:49

That's for sure.

Bryan: 20:50

Yeah. I bet. So during your naval service, you were awarded the Grouse Memorial Award for professionalism at sea and the Welland Shield for leadership. Can you tell us what each of those are and why you were awarded them?

Erin: 21:02

Yeah. Good question. That's a while ago now, but the most professional at sea, I suppose, was something that keeps coming up as I tend to be a bit of a team mom, I guess, whenever I'm away with a course, just trying to make sure everyone has what they need, everyone's squared away, everyone has their tasks complete in a day. And if they need help, I'd always offer to help out as much as I could. And I think that maybe was just recognized by the folks that, you know, I'm always around asking if people need help and making sure the team is taken care of.

Erin: 21:37

That seems to be a bit of a thing that I'm always doing. I'd still do it now. And the other award for leadership, I think was the same thing. They were in different years, different parts of my training, but kind of similar in that the division that I was in, I always tried to make sure that people had help and had everything done that they needed to have done. And if we were getting behind to help them out as much as I could.

Erin: 21:58

So honestly, I think it just came down to what I do naturally, which is to make sure the people around me have what they need to get their their stuff done. And if they need assistance, I'm always around if I can make myself available.

Bryan: 22:09

Yeah. That's interesting. It sort of reminds me recently I was doing an interview with colonel Dan Coutts, the wing commander of fifteen Wing Moose Jaw. He was talking about this concept of servant leadership where you're really looking after the needs of your followers. And it sounds sort of very similar.

Erin: 22:24

It sounds like the commander's a lot more eloquent than I am about that. But, yes, I think it's the same concept. You want your team to perform at its best. And the best way you can do that is to make sure everyone has everything that they need to do that, whether it's time or equipment or training or assistance, whatever it happens to be. I think I take that responsibility pretty seriously as a leader.

Bryan: 22:45

Yeah. I think that's that's huge. So around that same time, you finished your Mars four training. Can you explain to us what exactly that means and why you consider it to be a milestone in your career?

Erin: 22:56

Yeah. Absolutely. So the training scheme for Mars officers, which are now called Naval Warfare Officers, think it's NWO is what they go by now, it was a pretty challenging course. I think I'd mentioned a little bit before that academically, I'd always had to work really hard in high school and in college. And it was no different with Mars training either.

Erin: 23:15

There was a lot of academics learning the laws of the sea and passing arrangements between different vessels. You had to know pretty much the entire AOIs of the ship as well. So kind of like you memorize your red and yellow pages and that kind of thing for an aircraft, you have to memorize pretty much how most of your ship works as well and be able to explain it during your interviews and your board interviews. But essentially that job prepared us through various phases to be able to take the watch and safely navigate a vessel in piloted waters. So meaning not out in the open ocean, but sort of in the complicated waters around Coastal BC here, where there's a lot of islands, there's a lot of shipping lanes and all that kind stuff.

Erin: 23:56

And it's fairly complicated because we're not talking about being able just to evade and maneuver away from a larger ship or any ship really, like you're talking about a ship that's a few 100 tons and a couple 100 feet long, right? So learning to safely do that, and there's a whole whole long list of things you have to know was super hard. And there's also a lot of emergency training you do as well. You have to learn how to manage, both manage and put out fires on ship, which are never a pleasant experience. There's a whole thing called damage control school that you go through where you actually fight a propane fire inside a metal cage kind of thing and learn how to do all that kind of stuff.

Erin: 24:34

But by the end of Mars four, you're considered competent to have the watch and represent the captain on the bridge. And it's a big responsibility and I found it challenging because of how academically heavy it was. There was a lot of tests, there was a lot of doing mental math in public on the bridge, trying to figure out how you're going to maintain your track when you're being blown around or traveling at whatever speed. So that was always fun. So I was proud of that because it wasn't a given that it was always gonna pass each of those testing scenarios.

Erin: 25:05

They were very challenging. And again, this concept of sort of learning to be a little bit more confident when you're managing multiple emergencies on a bridge and you're being assessed as a person who's kind of running that, you have to sort of step into yourself and realize that, okay, I have the training, I have the skills, now's the time for me to show the rest of the crew that I have the confidence to lead them through this as well. So there was a lot of me working outside of areas where I'm comfortable. I don't like doing mental math in public and I am not super confident, but slowly over time you learn those skills and you kind of grow into yourself. So the Mars training that I did, I feel like in a lot of ways prepared me well to move into different aspects of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Erin: 25:50

So as much as I wasn't planning on joining the Navy, it turned out to be a very beneficial experience for me in lots of different ways.

Bryan: 25:57

It sounds like a huge responsibility. I I just wanna clarify. When you say it qualifies you to take the watch, that basically is you being the officer in charge of the ship in that time? Like, I obviously not in command of the ship, but in terms of, like, at that time, the buck stops with you.

Erin: 26:13

So at the time so because I I left before I could do my bridge watch keeper certificate, there were some aspects that I couldn't control. So the commanding officer would kinda leave you with parameters or arcs that you were allowed to move in.

Bryan: 26:27

Okay.

Erin: 26:27

So I think I had, like I could have 10 knots of speed change, and I think it was up to 10 degrees either side for heading changes to avoid other vessels. And if I couldn't manage some kind of conflict with another vessel because slowly we're approaching each other and there's rules you're supposed to follow to make sure you don't smash into each other, you'd come up with a plan and then call down to the captain. It could be in the middle of the night. They're probably sleeping and say, this is my plan. You give them a block report and they'd either say yay or nay or tell you why on earth would you tell me to do that terrible plan, come up with another one.

Erin: 27:01

But yeah, that's kind of your job is the buck stops with the captain, but you're representing that person on the bridge when you have to watch. And so it's a big responsibility. There's always someone there to back you up. The captain is on the ship or the XO or a senior Mars officer. But when you're learning, it's a big responsibility.

Erin: 27:19

It's not your ship, it's Canadian ship and it's a minor war vessel. I was on the minesweepers, the Kingston class. So I thought it was a big responsibility and I took that pretty seriously.

Bryan: 27:31

Yeah, for sure.

Erin: 27:31

Especially at night.

Bryan: 27:33

Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. How would you say your time learning to work as a team onboard Canadian Navy ships has contributed to your success?

Erin: 27:41

Similar to all of the interesting characters and cats that I work with in geology. Whenever you're on a ship, you encounter a lot of interesting personalities as well. And I'd say on a Minesweeper, there's only about 30 to 40 people at any one time, they're smaller ships, but there's always personalities you don't necessarily get along with, but you respect each other and that you're both sailors and you're both trying to do a job. So I think one of the best skills that I learned was learning to work with people that were very different to me without getting frustrated. Like maybe we didn't see eye to eye on everything, but at the end of the day, we're still serving the same country.

Erin: 28:19

We're still trying to do the same job and you find a way to work through that. And so I think the team aspect, the crew aspect of working with the Navy was really, really important for me. Because prior to that, hadn't, I mean, aside from playing on some sports teams and being in cadets, I had no real concept of what that was like working in a team like that in the military. So I think the Navy was definitely really good for building that skillset.

Bryan: 28:49

So around this time you applied to the RCAF again, what prompted you to apply once again after your Mars four training and what was that experience like?

Erin: 28:57

Yeah. I applied just before the my Mars four training, so that last sale. And what I had essentially told myself is I'm gonna give myself one more shot at this whole pilot thing. So I've always wanted to do that. If it doesn't work out, that's fine.

Erin: 29:09

I'm really enjoying what I'm doing with the Navy. Maybe I'll consider doing this full time. Maybe I'll get turbo jacked and become like a clearance diver or try and do that. So I was looking at making the Navy a full time career, but I also felt like I would regret it if I didn't try one more time.

Bryan: 29:27

Yeah.

Erin: 29:28

And so I applied and then it turns out that they had offered me a contract, but for some reason I just never got the call or the email or something.

Bryan: 29:37

Are you serious?

Erin: 29:38

Yeah. So I had done aircrew selection, I never heard back and I had passed, but that's when I ended up joining the Navy instead. So my training officer at the time, I think he's a Lieutenant Commander, might be a commander now on the East Coast. At the time he was a training officer and he just kind of like dug into it a little bit and it turns out there was some kind of clerical error and my name and service number and contact information was with a different Aaron Edwards or something like that. So he found the message that was cut and said, You're within a timeframe that's allotted if you wanna do a transfer right now, we can do that.

Erin: 30:11

And I'm like, Seriously? So I'm like, Well, okay, that's rad. I knew I had been selected, but I didn't hear back. So I figured that they didn't want me. And he's like, No, that was a clerical error.

Erin: 30:22

And you are more than welcome to take your transfer now if you want. And then that's what happened. I decided to take my transfer, thanked HMCS Discovery very much and made my way to Seneca College.

Bryan: 30:36

That's crazy. So you were still within like the time chunk that that that offer was still good?

Erin: 30:41

I didn't have to redo aircrew selection. Yeah. So I just I just applied for for a transfer at that time from the reserves to the reg force. So I got lucky.

Bryan: 30:50

That's awesome.

Erin: 30:51

And, like, no offense to the yeah. No offense to the recruiting section at that time. They were moving buildings from, like, Downtown Vancouver to another town. So I would imagine that would have been a total nightmare for them. It's just one of those things that happens.

Bryan: 31:03

Oh, for sure. And, I mean, the recruiting centers are handling an immense amount of files at all times. Like, I imagine they're under quite a bit of pressure.

Erin: 31:11

Yep. If I were more confident, I probably would have just called back and not not waited a year or two years, but that's okay.

Bryan: 31:18

That's a that's a wild story. So as we've said, you were successful in your bid to join the RCAF. Did you do phase one training or did you bypass?

Erin: 31:28

Nope. I didn't bypass. I think at the time I maybe had a hundred and eighty hours as a private pilot, I was put on an accelerated version of phase one. I don't know if they do that anymore. I think they assume like, Hey, you probably know which way the wheels are supposed to face when you're flying.

Erin: 31:49

So you probably don't need the extra three hours or something like that. But I did phase one, but even though I was a private pilot, I didn't think it was going to be super easy because I'd never flown something with retractable gear and flying an ancient 172 means that I'd never flown something as fast as a GROBE 120 Alpha either.

Bryan: 32:05

For sure.

Erin: 32:06

And the military flying environment in the RCF was definitely new and it may have been self imposed stress, but I found it a little stressful. So I didn't take anything for granted and made sure I was on top of my studying and pretty much if I had to relearn something to not worry that it was different than about what I maybe learned as a PPL out in like Courtenay, British Columbia. But the solo was definitely pretty cool. I'm like, this is a neat plane. I should remember to put the gear down, though.

Bryan: 32:38

Yeah. And I think what you've said, though, is great advice for anyone who arrives in RCAF flight training with some previous flight experience. Like, basically, be humble about the experience you have. Be ready to learn to do it the air force's way, and you're gonna basically give yourself as little self imposed grief as possible.

Erin: 32:55

Oh, 100%. I think you're very correct in saying that. What what was great about having flown before was that I was a little bit better maybe at the very beginning in terms of building an air picture and I'd flown a pattern and that kind of stuff. But I'd never done aerobatics before. I don't remember really doing practice force landings the way the Air Force does things.

Erin: 33:15

The parameters for your PPL were a little bit looser than the parameters you had to maintain on phase one because they were starting to push you towards that concept of maintaining very tight parameters. So I'm like, okay. I have like you said, be humble. I have a lot to learn. It's a privilege to be here.

Erin: 33:31

Let's just let's just make sure we land this thing correctly.

Bryan: 33:36

Did you do phase two on the Harvard two or the Grove?

Erin: 33:39

I got fortunate because I was part of the Seneca program. It was a very, very fast paced and kind of a fixed syllabus for us to have to go back and forth between phase training and school. So in order for us to make it back to school on time, we were put over onto the Harvard in Moose Jaw and very quickly pushed through that course in order to meet our next timing. So it was a lot to take in, but I enjoyed the Harvard. But again, it was a super humbling machine when you've come from a 120 Alpha and a couple hundred hours on the Cessna, and now you're flying some insane turboprop on an ejection seat.

Erin: 34:21

So I was fortunate that I got to experience Woose Jaw in all its glory in the winter and also get to fly the Harvard two.

Bryan: 34:30

The Harvard two is such a joy to fly. It's just such a powerful, sleek machine. And I've always said that I think it's kind of like the closest you can get to flying almost a World War two Warbird in modern day. Like, it's just such a cool plane.

Erin: 34:44

Yeah. It was my I still remember my first flight on the Harbour. I can't remember who I was with, but I remember feeling g as he accelerated for the first time down the runway. I'm like, this is something different. This is gonna be rad.

Erin: 35:00

I didn't really enjoy doing IF in that machine, but I really enjoyed the navigation phase and the, the aerobatic phase for sure. Yeah. IFR is a little bit less fun for me.

Bryan: 35:13

Right. Yeah. And I IFR being instrument flight rules.

Erin: 35:16

Correct.

Intro/Outro: 35:16

Yeah.

Bryan: 35:17

I'm curious. Did you get queasy at all in your early flights? I know I did a little bit on the Harvard.

Erin: 35:21

I think the first flight, there is something to do with the the flicker and sun the sun at a certain angle. So maybe the very first flight, but, I mean, thankfully, I never got seasick either. So maybe I'd become accustomed to that. But

Bryan: 35:35

Lucky.

Erin: 35:36

I don't like. Yeah, negative G is still kind of an awkward thing for me for sure, but not too bad.

Bryan: 35:43

Yeah. I do get questions every now and then from listeners about air sickness and stuff. And I know back at least when I went through, they had an air sickness course they'd send people on. Luckily, I only had basically on my first flight felt a little bit queasy, but they do have a course they send people on, I believe. Was that still on when you were there?

Erin: 36:00

Yeah. They couple folks that I ended up working with at four twenty seven had gone through the Harvard and a couple of them had ended up on the air sickness course. And they said it was the worst torture they've ever experienced, but at least they got to fly after and they'd never been sick after that. So it's definitely something that you can inoculate yourself to. It's not pleasant, but they were certainly dedicated to wanting to get that phase finished.

Erin: 36:24

So they went and suffered through it.

Bryan: 36:27

Yeah. I've heard that too. It's kind of like Buckley's, like it's terrible, but it works.

Erin: 36:32

Exactly.

Bryan: 36:34

Did you have any particular challenges on phase two?

Erin: 36:37

So many challenges. Phase two is a difficult course.

Bryan: 36:40

It is.

Erin: 36:40

It's a it's a long course. It's a complicated aircraft, and it's the bulk of your military flight training as well. So phase one was difficult because you're trying to maintain yourself on that learning curve. But in phase two, they're literally teaching you how to be a military pilot. It's the bulk of your basic flight training that you do.

Erin: 37:00

So not only is the aircraft complicated, you don't have a lot of chances for redos if something happens. So I, again, had to work very, very hard for the academic phase. That was pretty challenging for me. I'm someone who really likes to study the manuals and learn all that stuff. And I felt like I didn't I always just didn't have quite enough time to get the level of understanding that I felt like I wanted to give me good context for how this was supposed to work in the aircraft.

Erin: 37:34

I always felt like there was a little bit of a discrepancy between what I was able to do in the aircraft and my understanding of what was going on until later in the And so the IF phase was difficult for me, but I found that the navigation phase felt a little bit more comfortable. I was getting fairly comfortable with navigating, obviously from the Navy and some other things I had done in my life, but aerobatics was super awesome. But IF was a thorn in my side. And it almost cost me the course actually, I had a tough time with that. But the course ended up being on hard mode because of that, but no more EDs, just make it through extra duals as they call them.

Erin: 38:14

So phase two was challenging for a lot of reasons, not the least of which were personal. I was getting divorced at the time as well. So not a fun thing to do while you're on phase two, but the staff were supportive and the course was really tight as well. So we all just kind of made sure everyone had what they needed. And I just spent a lot of extra time in the simulator after hours when we had access to it to make sure I could at least get to a point where I was comfortable with the IF stuff.

Bryan: 38:43

Yeah. I was gonna ask how you overcame that, but that's really a great way to do it is just get those reps in during what little spare time you have. Get those extra simulator sessions booked if you feel you need them. Like, definitely, you can't sit back and be kind of complacent if you feel like you have shortcomings on that course.

Erin: 38:58

Absolutely not. And you can also ask your staff. I think a lot of people think that the staff are there only to assess you. And what I found was, you know, I put my hand up sort of probably later than I should have and said, I I need help with this. I'm obviously not understanding it.

Erin: 39:15

Here's what I think I understand. And then went to the staff and they're like, You know what? There's just one small thing that's not clear. Why don't I explain it in this way? And so utilize the staff as well.

Erin: 39:25

Like do your own preparation and try your best. Use your team first, but the staff are there to teach you as well. So I was very fortunate that I had some folks like Kevin Domon Grenier and Sarah Delaire. They were both snowbirds at one point later on. They were fantastic instructors and actually everyone that was at Moose Jaw was super helpful.

Erin: 39:44

And they took time if you asked so long as they knew you were also doing your own preparation. But I cannot overstate how important it is to ask for help early and identify early too if you have weaknesses that you're aware of, is to get help with those you know, quickly so you don't get behind. And that's I think that's the thing that hurts people on that course is they wait too long and then that gap is just too big to try and close.

Bryan: 40:08

Yeah. People I think are a little afraid almost to show I don't wanna I don't know if it's weakness exactly, but they don't wanna highlight their shortcomings because I think like you said, they feel like they're always being assessed. But if there's one thing I've learned from getting to know instructors either through this podcast or just friends of mine here at Portage who are instructing, they really care about the students succeeding. And like across the board, if I ask them, like, what's the most satisfying part of your job? It's watching your students grow and learn and succeed.

Bryan: 40:36

So absolutely, if you're out there, you're listening, you're a student right now, you're a prospective student in the RCF flight training system, don't be afraid of your instructors. They're they are a resource and they wanna help you.

Erin: 40:48

100%. And I think this carries on into your operational flying as well. I would always much rather work and fly with a person in an operational capacity that understands their limitations is willing to ask for help than someone who's like, I'll just do it and maybe I'll figure it out. I don't want the I will maybe in certain operational contexts. I want to know if you know where your weaknesses are so we can work together to address them and vice versa.

Erin: 41:12

It's up to us to be vulnerable about that to make sure that we're good to go operationally. So start that work early, I guess, a piece of advice I have.

Bryan: 41:21

Yeah. I I 100% agree with that. There's nothing more uncomfortable than that feeling of like winging it operationally. That's not a place you want to put yourself, and that's not a place you want to see other crew members putting themselves either. So that's a that's a good piece of advice for sure.

Bryan: 41:41

So you had mentioned an interest in jets. You were selected helos at that time. Was that what you wanted?

Erin: 41:48

So I think given that it was so much work just to get through the course that I I honestly was just happy that I had passed phase two at this point. And I had been toying with the idea of like, hey. Like, I was in the navy and I'm from the West Coast. Maybe it would be sweet to actually work in maritime Hilo because I didn't know that was really an option until I was in the navy.

Bryan: 42:09

Okay.

Erin: 42:09

There was so much about the CAF that I had I had blinders on too because I think just given the air the nature of the air cadet program, they really at least where I was, like, everyone was really interested in jets and that kind of stuff. And my own interest in in space was obviously very heavily skewed towards jet pilots and that kind of stuff. Abbotsford Air Show didn't help either. But as my phase training progressed on phase two, one of my flight commanders is actually a former four twenty seven pilot himself. And he said, Listen, I don't know why I know this, but I feel like you have the right brain for four twenty seven.

Erin: 42:44

You should think about that. I'm like, I don't know what that means, but helicopters are starting to seem kind of cool. And they had a couple folks from different communities come by. And I mean communities as in maritime helo search and rescue and attack hell. And four two seven came by and a couple of the four two seven people, I wish I remember who they were, but they were talking about what they did with the Bell four twelve.

Erin: 43:06

And I'm like, that is impossible. There's no way that you guys do that. That's crazy. I didn't know you could do that with a helicopter. And so I think those interactions with people in the various communities is honestly more or less what started to switch my interest.

Erin: 43:21

Fighters are great. I think it's a fantastic platform. They have a very specific mandate. That's awesome. But I think I was starting to become lured to the dark side of helos given the descriptions of what some of those folks were able to do with the machines and they seemed kind of cool.

Erin: 43:39

So I figured, you know what? I'm happy to Honestly, I'll be happy with anything I'm selected for. I don't really have a heavy preference at this point. I'm just happy to be offered a job in the Canadian Armed Forces as a pilot. So I had an interest more or less in helicopters at that point, but when it came to selection, I think I had just decided, you know what?

Erin: 43:58

Everything's gonna be an adventure. If they decide they're gonna put me on multi engine or whatever, it's because that's the best match for my skill, and we'll go with that. But it turned out I was selected for helicopters, and that's where I went.

Bryan: 44:11

That's such a great attitude to have. I have seen kind of both sides of that coin. I've seen people who get selected something different than what they were hoping and they absolutely melted down. And I think even in some cases released. Yeah.

Bryan: 44:23

I've also seen people like you who are basically like, hey, I have certain preferences, but at the end of the day, I'm grateful to have a great job that is gonna be exciting. And I I personally think there's no bad flight deck in the Canadian Armed Forces. I think that they all have their their interesting facets. And I don't think you can really get a bad posting in terms of flying in the RCAF.

Erin: 44:48

No. And I I understand that some people have some pretty significant family considerations. I didn't at the time. Mhmm. So I was happy with anything.

Erin: 44:55

But I think I think there are opportunities with with every potential posting you get in the CAF as a pilot. So I was gonna be happy with anything either way.

Bryan: 45:05

For sure. So you got through phase three Hilo in Portage La Prairie, and on graduation, you received the Portage La Prairie award for professionalism. What do you think set you apart to receive this award?

Erin: 45:16

I don't know. I think it was a I think it was a canteen setup that I had. There was a lot of snacks available to people when I was a cantino. But no, same thing as before, we had a relatively small class, but a lot of us were on tight timelines to get to other things like back to college. So it was a stressful course, but the same kind of thing applied that I'd learned in the Navy.

Erin: 45:39

You try and help your friends. They would help me because I still don't like IF. So I had friends in the simulator help me out with that and vice versa. If someone needed help with planning, just make yourself available to people to help out. And I guess maybe that's just something I do a little bit more noticeably.

Erin: 45:57

I don't know if it's noticeable or what, but I'm not sure. I didn't nominate myself, other folks did, but I think it's just me being me. It just happened to be something that was beneficial to the whole course.

Bryan: 46:08

It sounds like this is I mean, this is kind of a recurring theme. Right? Like, if we look back at your naval service and the awards you received there, it sounds like sort of like you said, it's you being you. This is a kind of a part of your personality that tends to shine through and get noticed.

Erin: 46:22

Right.

Bryan: 46:24

Now we've talked about you getting selected to fly Tackhill to fly VCH one forty six Griffin, and that specifically you were selected to go to four two seven Special Operations Aviation Squadron, which is part of Canadian Special Operations Forces Command or CANSOFCOM. When did that start to be a goal for you?

Erin: 46:42

So after phase two and we went over to start phase three, I'd been thinking a little bit about some of the mandates that these various communities have, because as much as the flying is fun, I wanted the mandate for the community to kind of match what I wanted to do. And it was really important for me to get as much operational kind of overseas experience as quickly as possible. Not because I was older than most of the applicants, but I was about ten to twelve years older than some of these folks at the time. But I felt that was going to be the best way for me to put all of this stuff I'd finally kind of got together and learned. And I was eager to go test it out and kind of consolidate those skills overseas.

Erin: 47:25

And so tac health started to become very interesting to me because of the potential to deploy very quickly. And April mandate specifically in terms of responding to things on very short notice sounded very interesting to me. It sounded like it was just the right kind of challenge they wanted. And they were looking for people that were sort of nontraditional thinkers or could think kind of abstractly and had done a bunch of different stuff in their life and like, Hey, I owned a clothing store and an art gallery. I was in the Navy.

Erin: 47:55

I've done a bunch of random weird stuff. Maybe this will be a good fit. And I was able to get a little bit of help contacting some folks that had flown there and talked to them about what it was they were doing and how they liked it. And I felt like, hey, this might actually be a really good fit for my super weird personality that likes to do all kinds of weird stuff at the same time and be really busy. So I put my notice of intent in, which essentially starts the application process.

Erin: 48:24

They kind of do a deep dive into your military background and will offer you a selection spot. At the time we had a flying selection as well, which I was worried about because with the way my training had kind of gone, we went back and forth between face training and then school at Seneca College in Toronto. So when I put my NOI in, I actually hadn't flown in three semesters, however long that ends up being. And when you graduate phase three, you don't have too many hours. I'm like, okay.

Erin: 48:57

Well, I'll apply. Chances are I'm not gonna get this because I haven't flown for very long and also I only have eighty hours or whatever on this machine. But they invited me out for an interview, a year psych evaluation, and then a flight test or a flight evaluation. And I honestly just showed up already thinking, I'm not going to get selected. The other person that was there with me had a lot more experience that was doing the selection at the same time.

Erin: 49:22

So I'd sort of decided I'm going to get as much information and sort of enjoy myself as much as possible and ask a bunch of questions. This is a super neat experience to have in Petawawa, I'll never do this again. And it probably remains to this day, probably because I decided that there was no pressure, I wasn't gonna get selected anyway, that it was my best flight. I had never flown that well in my entire life. And I was flying with a fellow who's very well known in the community for being one of our best pilots.

Erin: 49:52

They're all fantastic, but this person has helped us build a lot of our tactics. So I felt like it was a super cool experience. I'd never flown with a flight engineer in the back conning me onto a tower before. So I'm like, that's a really fun experience. I appreciate you guys taking the time out of your day and all that of stuff.

Erin: 50:08

And then I'll just go back to school and I'll figure out where I get posted after that. And then I got a call a couple weeks later and then a posting message. I was super surprised, but I think it was just going into it, not overconfident, but more or less like this is a learning opportunity as much as it is anything else. And I don't know. I guess it worked out.

Bryan: 50:30

Well, it kinda like you said helps like, you sort of removed a lot of the self imposed pressure that a lot of people go into those situations with?

Erin: 50:38

Yep. So I removed the self imposed pressure by presupposing the outcome. That doesn't mean I wasn't prepared. I I there was I didn't really know how to prepare for an interview and a flight test that I didn't know anything about. So I probably went overboard by trying to get ahold of a checklist because I'd never actually flown a CH-one 146.

Erin: 50:58

I'd flown the the four twelve CF in training. So I learned the red pages and the white pages because a friend gave me a checklist and then went over the procedures for PET that I could find and did a deep dive into four twenty seven and Ken Softcom's background. At least I was as prepared as I could be. Typical Aaron Edwards,

Intro/Outro: 51:16

This is

Erin: 51:16

what I do all the time. It's a little bit much. So I wanted to make sure that if I wasn't selected, which probably wasn't gonna happen, that at least I'd done everything in my power to be ready and I had nothing to regret at that point. So that's kind of how I approached it.

Bryan: 51:31

I think that's a good approach to a lot of different flight training opportunities. I remember at Moose Jaw, a turning point for me was when I realized, like, I'm just gonna do my best and leave it all on the table and real and then that way, if this doesn't work out, at least I can walk away and say, I tried my hardest. It just wasn't meant to be.

Erin: 51:50

Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't my biggest fear in life is getting to my deathbed and having regrets. And those regrets being, I just didn't try hard enough. Yeah.

Erin: 52:00

That's not what I want. So you might as well just put it all out there, see if it happens. And if it doesn't, at least then you know where to start from to recover from that. Right?

Bryan: 52:09

For sure. Okay, Erin, that's gonna wrap up part one of our chat for today. I really enjoyed learning about your career and I'm excited to hear more about what you are doing down in Houston when we continue on part two. So thank you for being here today.

Erin: 52:21

Thank you.

Bryan: 52:23

Okay. That wraps up part one of our chat with captain Erin Edwards, a Royal Canadian Air Force captain who is currently working with the Canadian Space Agency and NASA down in Houston. For our next episode, we'll be reconnecting with Erin to talk all about her experiences in the operational world with four two seven special operations aviation squadron, as well as the beginning of the discussion of her time in Houston. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?

Bryan: 52:51

You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.

Bryan: 53:14

Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up.

Intro/Outro: 53:16

See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.