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Intro/Outro: 00:30

Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set. PD switches.

Intro/Outro: 00:35

Normal. Doors and hatches. Closed. Lay down. Stroblade.

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On. Research check-in. Complete with your left. Engineer. Start number two.

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Starting to. Wing three one zero ten, pilot project podcast. Clear takeoff runway 31 left.

Bryan: 00:58

Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is captain Aaron Edwards, an RCAF pilot who is a Canadian capsule communicator or CAPCOM currently working with NASA. Erin, welcome back to the show, and thanks once again for being here.

Erin: 01:18

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Bryan: 01:20

Listeners can check out part one to hear about Erin's early career and training. For today, we'll be focusing on her operational career and her time at four two seven as well as the beginning of her journey of working with the Canadian Space Agency and NASA. So getting slotted for four two seven Squadron is only half the battle. To really get there, you've got to pass a rigorous selection course for CANsoftcom at four two seven. You are one of a handful of women to pass this course and eventually qualify as a special operations aircraft commander.

Bryan: 01:49

What can you tell us if anything about selection and what did you learn about yourself by completing it?

Erin: 01:54

Yeah, it was probably one of the best courses that I think I've been on. It was about four and a half months long. Wow. And you learn, yeah, you learn everything from a green phase where you're off in the woods, learning all those types of skills. It's like doing aircrew survival, but plussed up a lot.

Erin: 02:15

You do a big shooting package as well. They want you to be competent with your weapons to a pretty high standard given what happens if a helicopter has to go down and you are able to extricate yourself, you might not be the mission at that point. So you'll have to be self sufficient. So weapons proficiency is very important. As is learning the differences between sort of conventional planning and planning in a special operations environment in that kind of multiple different units working together to do things in a very short amount of time.

Erin: 02:50

So the course is pretty long. There's a lot of different things that happen on it. And the point is to try and stress you out a fair bit and make sure that you're working as a team. And I think the most important thing for me on that selection course is that it didn't matter what your rank was. Everyone there had some kind of skillset that was required.

Erin: 03:11

So you're doing a course with pilots, with flight engineers and with your door gunners as well. And so solving some of the problems that they give you, it doesn't matter whether you're the officer or not, they want to see the team come up with a cohesive plan. And maybe the best plan comes from the master bombardier who has an astrophysics degree. The crazy diversity of the people on that course was wild. None of us had the same background and all of us had some random life experience, which I think was probably part of the purpose.

Erin: 03:41

So you're able to come up with some really interesting solutions to very difficult abstract problems because everyone there has had crazy experiences in their life. I'd say the thing I learned the most was to trust my team. As much as I talked about teamwork in the past, that's a long time to be with a group of people under a fair amount of stress and you get to know them in and out. We spent a little while sleeping on the side of the airfield in a tent together. And then we spent some time learning more things about ourselves under a little bit of duress in our contact after capture phase.

Erin: 04:17

But it was an interesting course in that it exposed everybody's vulnerabilities at one point or another. And the team just adapted. Everyone had to learn something about themselves kind of in a group that maybe wouldn't normally share, but you get to know those people really well. And it spools you up and gets you ready for essentially hitting your operational flight and being able to deploy. So there's also a long flying phase where we learned how to do all of the precision inserts with folks rappelling or fast roping out of your helicopter, which as a brand new pilot was super challenging because of the, well, the Griffin is a fantastic aircraft, but it's a difficult aircraft to fly the way that we fly it at four twenty seven.

Erin: 05:02

And the tolerance is required when you're inserting humans to either a tower or a spot on the ground. So you combine that with also having to do your CCA, your close combat attack course as well mixed in there. It's a lot of flying, it's a lot of learning, but you learn to rely on yourself and learn on your lean on your team. So I thought it was an interesting course for sure.

Bryan: 05:25

It sounds like the kind of thing that when you walk away, you're a member of like a well, you are a member of a select group and that's something that kind of stays with you for life.

Erin: 05:34

Yeah. I mean, it's different obviously than the other communities. We're we're aviation specialists. We're not operators and we're not assaulters.

Bryan: 05:40

Mhmm.

Erin: 05:40

But we do have to be able to seamlessly sort of insert ourselves into that construct and to make sure that the other units trust us to be able to do our jobs to a super high level of precision because it's their lives on the line. If I miss my target and they're not where they expect to be, I may have cost them that mission. So we really harp on our new students and folks that pass selection and are learning how to do these jobs that the responsibility you have is pretty massive at a young phase in your career.

Bryan: 06:13

For sure.

Erin: 06:13

And that's one thing I noticed too, is post selection immediately you're responsible for stuff. It's like, you might be brand new to this unit, but if you're past our selection and you've been put into an operational flight, we have confidence in you, maybe even as a junior captain to go talk on behalf of four twenty seven in a joint planning atmosphere. Over to you, don't mess it up, do your best kind of thing. You're like, Oh, this is a big responsibility all of a sudden. But yeah, the course prepared us really well and a couple of people were gone within a few months to go do some stuff overseas.

Erin: 06:47

So it set us up pretty, pretty well.

Bryan: 06:49

Wow. Over time, you upgraded to special operations aircraft commander. Did you find that process difficult and what was your greatest challenge?

Erin: 06:59

Yeah, that takes a couple years. Much like in any community, you have to kind of progress through different phases to get to aircraft commander and a special operations aircraft commander has a certain standard as well. And essentially what that is, I mean, the qualifications have changed somewhat, but essentially the responsibility you are given with that certification is that CANSOFCOM via forty seven CO feels as though you've reached a level of competence that they can give you an aircraft with our most expensive operators and assaulters to train in the back of an aircraft and insert them or do any of our mission sets unsupervised as an aircraft commander, you're responsible for that crew. You're not a flight commander, so you are managing your machine integrated into part of a flight, make multiple aircraft, but it's a big responsibility. I think anyone becoming an aircraft commander, whether it's in special forces or not, you are now responsible for a multimillion dollar machine and lives of your crew and potentially the execution of your mission as well.

Erin: 08:03

It's just, I think it doesn't happen easily in any community. And I found at four twenty seven that they definitely take their time upgrading people because of the level of responsibility that you're given as a SOA commander. So it took me, I wanna say three years to upgrade, which is about average. Yeah, getting that stamp in your logbook where the commander of four twenty seven is like, Yep, I'm more than competent and happy with your skillset and your test. Here's the keys to be an aircraft commander.

Erin: 08:37

You are now allowed to go do live inserts with troops dangling below your helicopter or go do live fires as required or that kind of thing. So it was a big responsibility and kind of like a big achievement for me because of how difficult each of these courses had been over time to be given that kind of responsibility. And I take it seriously, much like everyone else does. Like these are real people in your aircraft and it's a real mission that you might be performing on behalf of Canada. And we hand out those qualifications easily.

Bryan: 09:11

No. That's a big day to get that stamp in your logbook for sure. What was your first flight like as a SOA commander?

Erin: 09:19

It was very slow. I did not let the FO do a lot. That's for sure. So the other person flying the aircraft is someone that we get along really well. I quite like both of them.

Erin: 09:31

Actually, we switched the FOs halfway through the flight. And I think I probably told them to slow down each like four different times. I think it's because the first time you sent out an aircraft yourself, you're like, oh my gosh, this is my responsibility right now.

Bryan: 09:44

A 100.

Erin: 09:45

Yeah. So it was more slow paced than normal, but it doesn't take too much. It doesn't take too long for you to get a little bit more confident in your aircraft commander qualities. Like I wouldn't have been given that qualification if I wasn't able to salvage the aircraft from a bad approach, but my two FOs put up with me for that flight. And I think at the end, one of them definitely went a little faster than I was expecting on one of our maneuvers, but we made it work.

Erin: 10:09

So it was a fun flight. It's still in my logbook with a lot of exclamation marks next to it for sure. And those two guys, they definitely put up with me being a little bit more nervous than normal.

Bryan: 10:19

I think that's pretty common when you're doing your first couple sign outs. I think that the crews typically they know they're probably gonna deal with a little bit more micromanagement and that that'll wear off over time as you gain confidence and trust. Right?

Erin: 10:34

Yeah. Absolutely. It was it was pretty funny, but a little bit more confident now, which is good.

Bryan: 10:39

Yeah. So you deployed to Iraq in 2020 and 2021 flying the CH one forty six Griffin and amassing over 300 combat hours and earning the general campaign star expedition medal with bar. Did you want to deploy, and did the experience change you at all as a person?

Erin: 10:57

Yeah. I definitely wanted to deploy. That was a a big goal of mine. So I was very eager, to go do those two deployments. It was a great way to consolidate everything we've been learning and to see how all of these skills since you joined the military could be brought to bear and put to use in an operational environment.

Erin: 11:15

That's not to say that folks that don't deploy or have domestic operational jobs aren't equally as competent, they absolutely are. It's just a different environment. And for our mandate in SOF, that's part of what we do is go other places. And I felt like how it changed me was give me a very good perspective on just how quickly we can carry out our planning and get out the door as a team and do some pretty complicated stuff as well. So I thought it was a great way to consolidate all of your skills.

Erin: 11:46

And I think the most important thing I got out of that, aside from learning a lot was coming back much more confident as a pilot as well. So I hadn't upgraded before I left on those two tours. I upgraded after. But what was nice is that you can be very I don't wanna say comfortable is the wrong word because you're always kinda keeping an eye on things happening overseas. But you get to know the machine really well, the process, the flow, and what you don't have is a whole bunch of secondary duties.

Erin: 12:14

So you can go do your flying, do your debriefs, get ready for the next thing, go to the gym, whatever you need to do. In my case, I thought it was a genius idea to also be in school, so I was writing a thesis. But you didn't have to worry about all of the stuff you normally worry about when you're at home at the unit. So you're able to really concentrate on just becoming a really good pilot in that type of environment.

Bryan: 12:36

Yeah. I totally agree. I think nothing consolidates your skills, grows your confidence, grows your comfort with the aircraft, like deploying and flying every day, every other day, getting, you know, hundreds of hours in a time period that maybe normally it would take you like a year to get that kind of time and you get it within, you know, half a year or something. It's really, really good for you as a pilot.

Erin: 12:58

Yeah. And to see as well, like you get to you get very used to the area around your home base. Right? I mean, I would probably still not be great at finding my way around the ranges in Petawawa. I still need the still need a map for that.

Erin: 13:11

But I think what's what's great is seeing different environments, different geography, all that different stuff gives you an appreciation for what the machine can do in a different environment as well. I'd never been somewhere where it's that hot before. Mhmm. I'd never had to deal with actual, you know, dust storms and sandstorms and that kind of thing and having to make sort of weather calls sort of on the fly to make sure things could work. And there was this huge consolidation of skills when it comes to dealing with different weather, different topography, and dealing with mountains as well in the Griffin, which when it's hot is always an interesting experience.

Erin: 13:49

So yeah, I think it's important. And if anyone ever gives you the opportunity to deploy, especially as a pilot, just take it. Like, you will you'll you probably won't regret it. It's some of the best best learning you can do, I think.

Bryan: 14:03

100%. It's it shapes your career.

Erin: 14:06

100%.

Bryan: 14:08

So you have a call sign sparkles. What's the story behind that?

Erin: 14:12

Oh my gosh. Normally, have to buy someone a beer if you want them to tell you, but that's okay. So it wasn't officially assigned, but it it happened at in Fort Drum. I was doing my close combat attack course where you learn how to coordinate fires, people shooting out of your helicopter, which is complicated because how we used to do it was essentially on paper. So we didn't have an iPad.

Erin: 14:40

They wanted you to do your sort of figure out where you are, where you're going, what your fires pattern is gonna look like, and all that coordination on paper at night in the middle of the winter in Fort Drum, New York. So I was already kind of miserable and I'd been having some trouble with the geometry and I had a 50 cal, I think on the right. So one of our door gunners, they're crew serve weapons. So they were on the right hand side and then a regular light machine gun on the left. And we were in a formation and we were given a fire mission to go blow up some fake enemy or something like that by a bunch of trainee JTACs from The US forces.

Erin: 15:17

There was probably about 10 people on the ground that were learning how to call in fires. And so we were X number of minutes away. We get the call, I take the fire mission, come up with my plan. I'm doing this geometry in my head. I'm like, Oh man, it's actually working.

Erin: 15:31

This is great. I brief my plan on the radio. It's fantastic. We kind of tip in to go towards our target. When you are en route to your target, you're nice and low.

Erin: 15:40

You want to maximize your surprise. And then at a given distance, you'll kind of pop up both helicopters spread out a little bit and then put your fires on target once you've identified it. The JTACs, the folks on the ground, were also a distance away from the target, but you can do something called sparkle or sparkling, and they'll put a laser on the target so it's easier for you to identify it. So we were bumped up and I looked at my 01:00 for like 500 meters and I actually saw the target, which had been a problem all night. And I got so excited that rather than say what I was supposed to say, which was to this call sign, know, such and such a flight, sparkle on.

Erin: 16:22

That's all I had to say. And he would have sparkled the target and I would have told my door gunner to shoot it. I squeaked over the radio that everybody was listening to, including the CO at that time, because he'd come down to visit this whole giant exercise. And rather than say all cool, calm, and collected what I was supposed to say on the radio, I literally yelled, Sparkles, please. And all of a sudden there is 10 lasers on this target.

Erin: 16:46

And my door gunner, I think she just was like, oh, there's 10 lasers. Was gonna start shooting stuff. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't actually give you the command to fire, cease fire. And then my instructor kind of looked over. This is nighttime, so I can just see his eyes and his mustache and the glow of the NBGs.

Erin: 17:01

And he's just sort of shaking his head. And I'm like, Oh, I think I just failed my flight. And we get back and these giant super muscular JTACs kind of started chanting sparkles, which was entertaining as I'm trying to eat my dinner. So for a while I was known as Sparkles and I relayed this story to folks at NASA because no one called me that really back home. And they're like, That is amazing.

Erin: 17:27

We're going to call you Sparkles. That's the most ridiculous thing we've ever heard. And these are all, like, marine astronauts or whatever, so they know what fires are supposed to sound like on the radio, and it's not sparkles, please. So that's where that that's where that came from is another one of my gaffes, but that's okay.

Bryan: 17:43

Oh, man. No. That's awesome. That's a great story.

Erin: 17:46

Yeah.

Bryan: 17:48

Alright. So while you were upgrading, you served as a flight safety officer, standards and training flight operations officer, and created the space liaison officer position at four two seven squadron while completing a master's in space science. How did you juggle these diverse responsibilities, and what did you learn about yourself?

Erin: 18:06

I don't know. Man, I think I've blacked out that entire period of my life. So the flight office flight safety officer job was super interesting. I ended up doing that overseas on my last tour because we unfortunately couldn't send one of our pilots who were supposed to, and we found out we were going to have this gap. So I quickly did that course and ended up really enjoying it.

Erin: 18:28

So being a flight safety officer overseas is a secondary duty. It ends up being relatively busy. There's usually little things going on, so you learn a lot doing that and integrating into the larger task force as well. And then I came home and I would on occasion cover off the flight unit flight safety officer, but he went away. Or I act as a flight safety officer on the road for my flight when we were doing training elsewhere.

Erin: 18:52

So it's a secondary duty, but sometimes if something happens, it ends up being quite busy. But I enjoy the investigation part and trying to figure out what happened and making sure that you are doing your part and making sure that your teammates are able to work in a safe environment. Like, I'm really bought into the flight safety mantra, which is it's as it's not about punishing people. It's about finding the solution to make sure we don't do it again. So I'm I'm really into that because it helps keep your team safe, and everyone can learn from those mistakes, right?

Bryan: 19:22

A 100%.

Erin: 19:23

And you talk to, yeah, you talk to any pilot, we've all made a mistake. It's just a matter of time.

Bryan: 19:28

Oh yeah.

Erin: 19:28

And so the best thing we can do is capture that and be totally upfront about it and just report it so everyone else can learn too. So I've had my own couple of flight safeties here and there. I think everyone has, there are just things that happen. Yeah, and then the standards and training operations officer job, that's a specific flight at 04:27 that's responsible not only for our selection course, the special operations tactical aviators course, but also all of these standards across the squadron as well. So as the operations officer, you're managing all of that along with your schedule and helping get SOTAC ready and all of the internal training we have to do at 04:27 as well.

Erin: 20:11

So whether it's more CCA or going out to work with boats or doing an exercise that involves our standards pilots and flight engineers. It was incredibly busy. And I wasn't expecting to get this job after my last tour, but I was very fortunate that I had some good mentors, some good operations officers I was able to learn from. And I had a fantastic group of people to work with. My flight commander, she was amazing as were all of the senior pilots that work in standards and training.

Erin: 20:40

So I had very good support and my ops warrant as well. My ops warrant probably could have done this job on his own. I don't know if he actually needed me, but he was a fantastic mentor. So we worked really well together to pull off some very complex, but very necessary training. And I think in a normal environment, given the level and complexity of operations that we supported in order to train, not just our own staff, but mixed in with the rest of the command, we probably should have had a cell of about six people, but it was normally just me and my ops weren't.

Erin: 21:12

So it was definitely busy. Again, not sure why I chose to try and do a master's degree at the same time, write a thesis. But my roommate at the time was also super supportive. If he saw me kind of freaking out at some thesis or course that wasn't working, he'd quietly leave and like come back with Starbucks and chips. So I had fantastic support throughout those years, but I was also given I wasn't told to not do my master's degree.

Erin: 21:42

They were very supportive of that as well. I didn't take any time off for it, but

Bryan: 21:45

there

Erin: 21:46

was definitely times when my deputy officer commanding or my flight commander were like, We're gonna write a leave pass for you, so you go take a break because you're working a lot. So it was a good team. And I think that's honestly how I was able to manage all of those different things at once, that and an excessive amount of caffeine. But again, it was about relying on the team and also the mission was really important to me too, making sure that the people that were training had relevant training in the right amount of time to make sure that they were ready for their next career step. So I think being passionate about the mission made that job easier, as busy as it was with the other things that I was doing.

Bryan: 22:29

Yeah, for sure. It's always easier to kind of bury yourself into your work if it's something you're passionate about.

Erin: 22:34

Yep.

Bryan: 22:37

So we've been talking a lot about mentorship. If you're going to pay it forward and provide some mentorship to young women who may be listening, what advice would you give them if they are looking at pursuing difficult or male dominated careers like you have done?

Erin: 22:51

I would say just to just to go for it. And in fact, I think that advice is applicable to to men and women.

Bryan: 22:59

For sure.

Erin: 23:00

There's a lot of pressure in society to do certain things a certain way and to maybe not always push yourself to a point of failure. A lot of people like to know everything before they try stuff. But honestly, just to be open and to try, even though you might not be successful, there's no harm in trying. Just don't have any regrets. And you might meet people along the way that are gonna tell you you're not capable or you shouldn't try, or that's really weird, whatever.

Erin: 23:31

If you are interested, just trust yourself that you probably have the skills or you'll learn the skills to make it through. Just honestly, just give it a shot and ask questions along the way and be open to what happens. If it doesn't always go right, it doesn't mean that it's the wrong decision for you. You just might have to rejig about how you're going to approach that problem. But these jobs are for everybody, not just one type of person.

Erin: 23:58

In fact, I think to be successful and to win the wars of the future, we're going to have to have people that can think around abstract problems and we're going to need people that are not exactly the same. We have to have people with different backgrounds in order to combat those abstract threats. So everyone has something to offer, and I'd love to see more people doing these trades and giving these hard things a try. You learn a lot about yourself and you get to do some rad stuff along the way while serving your country. I think it's fantastic.

Bryan: 24:29

That's awesome. And I I totally agree. That advice is really good for anybody who's listening, whether they are a man or a woman or I think that that applies to everybody. So, Erin, as we mentioned, your first experience working in the space field was when you created the space liaison officer position at four two seven squadron. How did it come about that you created this position and what exactly did it entail?

Erin: 24:52

Yeah. I was actually partly through my selection course at four two seven, and we were just learning about planning and that kind of stuff. And I obviously before that had done TAFOS, the tactical first officers course down at, or over I should suppose, at four zero three Squadron Engage Town. And I'd noticed in that course that we weren't involving a lot of chitchat about potential denial situations when it came to GPS. And I think just given my interest in all of things to do with space, that I was curious if that information existed or was consolidated somewhere.

Erin: 25:30

So I poked around and asked some folks. At the time in the Air Force, DG Space was responsible for that type of information, but very much at the strat level. So honestly just fired a couple emails, probably shouldn't have, but directly to lieutenant colonels that were working at CANSPAC. And one of them, he's probably a colonel now, but Colonel Lacass emailed me back. He's like, I like your idea of bringing this information down to the tactical level.

Erin: 25:58

We've been trying to find ways to kind of get ourselves into these various planning rooms, but it is difficult. We all know that the military is a little bit siloed. If you don't, you don't know what you don't know. And I'd been one of those nerds that was like, I'm gonna take a bunch of online courses too, like the basic space operations course and the advanced space operations course because I have so much time. And so kind of combining that and just noticing gaps here and there, I'm like, I think we can address some of this.

Erin: 26:27

So started having some interesting conversations with the folks over at space and they were standing up their own division at the time. And so it was a really fortuitous timing, I think, with the RCF kind of releasing their white paper and deciding that, you know what, we're really gonna focus on space. This is obviously our new operating environment, and we can't do our jobs across the CAF, whether you're a pilot or driving boats or you're on a gun line. Everyone requires the safe, not safe necessarily, but access to space at the very least to do our jobs or at least to do our jobs more easily. So I wrote a briefing note and one of the things I learned at four twenty seven, even though I was incredibly junior there, still in my course, under evaluation as to whether or not they'd keep me.

Erin: 27:18

I think I wrote that briefing note in a tent actually after hours. And I submitted it via chain that I had. And the CEO's like, I think this is a good idea. He's like, Don't embarrass me, but I want you to continue with this idea. I think this has some legs.

Erin: 27:35

So started working with our int cell as well, and it kind of grew from there. And to be honest, I think a lot of places were doing that at the same time. I'm sure The US forces were trying to figure out ways to implement more space mindedness in their tactical level planning. And that's really all it was, was just trying to collapse that information that kind of gets stuck at a high level sometimes and just bring it down to the warfighter level. And so it was difficult just because not everyone's busy and we have a certain way of doing things.

Erin: 28:07

So when you suddenly say like, Hey, we're gonna introduce a new planning paradigm here. There wasn't resistance necessarily. I think it was more or less just understanding why it was so relevant. And obviously I could go on about it all day and there's more to it than just GPS, but critical, it is absolutely critical to all warfighters across any element, especially these days that we have that access to space and we understand the implications of not having it and being prepared to fight a battle when that access to various tools is either denied or degraded. And how can we do that to a potential enemy as well?

Erin: 28:42

So it's just a different way of thinking. It's another tool. I hate this term, but it's another tool in the toolbox for people. And I think someone eventually would have done that anyway. It's just I happened to be that nerd that had no life apparently and thought that writing a briefing note was a good idea.

Erin: 28:58

But I also appreciate that. It's one thing I noticed at four twenty seven is we are quite lateral. And if you have an idea and you can substantiate it, they'll probably let you run with it. And so it's been going for a while. Someone else took over for me when I was posted out of there and they've grown it into something even bigger and they have involved more EW stuff and it's fantastic.

Bryan: 29:18

Mhmm.

Erin: 29:19

But it's an important capacity and capability I think that every tactical unit has to start doing. We all have to be more space literate because we it's a lot more difficult to do our jobs when you don't have access to

Bryan: 29:30

it. Yeah. Absolutely. And you mentioned EW there, that's electronic warfare. And it's interesting.

Bryan: 29:36

I so one of my old COs who is now retired was Mike Adamson, who was the first commander of three Canadian Space Division. And he's an amazing guy, one of the best mentors I ever had. And at one point we had talked and and I may still do this with eventually with whichever person is in command of the Canadian Space Division at the time. But we had talked about doing an interview. It didn't end up lining up.

Bryan: 30:00

But as part of that pre interview, we spoke and he was telling me a little bit about basically just how dependent everyday life is. Like forget about even combat. Everyday life is dependent on space access and safe access to space. You you then add a layer of of combat to that, and it's it's just absolutely critical like you were saying.

Erin: 30:22

Yeah. Mister Adamson was also my first division commander as well.

Intro/Outro: 30:27

He was the one who was in

Erin: 30:28

place when he posted me down here to NASA. Fantastic person to work for. Mhmm. And it's brigadier general Chris Horner now. But he's similarly as focused on ensuring that Canadians just by and large have access to space.

Erin: 30:40

It's like commerce shuts down, your ability to navigate your aircraft in the civilian context shuts down if we don't have access to these tools. They've become completely integrated into our lives, like you said. So that division essentially exists to make sure that any threats that exist to Canada in the space domain are identified because it is absolutely essential for our society and our economy that we are able to maintain that access to space. I'm sure the space div will be so happy to have such a plug about this, but that division, seven wing space, and the two squadrons that comprise that wing are very busy operationalizing themselves to make sure we're closing any gaps. And they're always looking for people too.

Erin: 31:23

So if people are interested in space, there's always a crossover with piloting, absolutely, but it's an option for people too. And it's been a really big pleasure learning how they've integrated themselves and and what it is they're doing to operationalize to make sure that we're meeting those new threats.

Bryan: 31:39

Mhmm. There's been a bit of a theme of interest in space. We've talked about this before with you taking on geology. Was the position with NASA something you had long had in mind, or was it more of an opportunity that came up?

Erin: 31:52

So that is an interesting question. The position actually didn't exist until a couple years ago. At NASA, there's always been sorry, I should say very specifically at the Johnson Space Center where I work down here in Houston. For a long time within the astronaut office, there's been a military liaison office. And they've brought in various US service members over the years to learn how to be CAPCOMs and do other work around the office that matches their skill sets.

Erin: 32:22

There's a lot of engineering and test flying and that kind of stuff, report writing and that kind of thing that the astronauts need help with. So if you have a background in engineering or space sciences, it's a pretty awesome place to end up for a few years. But our two RCF colonels that are astronauts as well, Josh Kutrick and Jeremy Hansen, were kind of like, Hey, there's a lot of work in this office, like technical engineering work that we could probably use some expertise on or just an extra body that might be able to work on some of this stuff. Maybe we should approach the CSA, the Canadian Space Agency, and our home division, 3DIV, to see if we wanna see if there's a way to bring down a Canadian. So they sat down and created the position, sort of working with the Canadian Space Agency as well.

Erin: 33:08

And they put out a course solicitation. It's not a course solicitation, but a solicitation message for the position. And I remember seeing it and 15 different people emailed me about it. And I'm like, I'm not gonna get that position. I don't even think I'm gonna bother applying.

Erin: 33:21

They're gonna give it to some test pilot or whatever. And I was super busy doing an out of country training exercise with my flight and just dealing with all the regular things that OpsO deals with when you're away from your home unit. And again, that same mentor, she was like, Erin, I really want you to apply for this job. I think you will regret it if you don't try and apply for this job. I'm like, I don't have time, ma'am.

Erin: 33:46

Like, I'm busy trying to run your unit right now and get all your candidates through this course. And she's like, listen, I'll fix the schedule. Like, I will manage a portion of your ops duties. Like, just go go submit your application for this. And so I did and didn't think I'd get it.

Erin: 34:03

And a little while later heard back that they wanted to bring me in for an interview. And that interview ended up being with some representatives from the division with Jeremy Hansen himself, a person who ended up being my current boss, so a branch chief from the crew office, James Kelly, who's a retired astronaut, and a few other folks, I think from HQ and Carling. And again, I did the interview. It went really well. I did my best to prepare again by overreacting to how much stuff I should probably learn about reading white papers and learning all about what the CSA is up to these days and what Capcoms do.

Erin: 34:39

And again, I'm like, I'm not gonna get it. I'm sure they're gonna hire a test pilot. And I got a call later to my ops office. I was back in Canada and my warrant kinda looked at me. He's like, is that an astronaut on the phone?

Erin: 34:52

And Jeremy had called the office and said, hey, you did really well in an interview. We think you've got the best personality that's gonna fit down here for this job that's got like so many different things going on. Your background is perfect for the kinds of things we want you to do down here. Would you like to come work with me at NASA? And I'm pretty sure I swore at him in the phone.

Erin: 35:10

Like, I didn't say heck yes. I said something else, but I'm like, absolutely. When do you want me to show up? And like within three months, I was down in Houston. So it's not something that I thought I'd ever be able to do.

Erin: 35:21

I've always been interested in space, but until I started getting involved a little bit more in the military side, I didn't really know that there was a way to get down to NASA other than being an astronaut. And this job has definitely provided that experience for me. So I get to do a lot of the same training that they've done and I manage their schedules and their training as an operations officer. So I get to do a lot of the same stuff except go to space. But yeah, it just happened to be a position that showed up at exactly the right time.

Erin: 35:51

I had the right education, the right experience, the right operational background, and it all kind of just came together. And every single thing I've done throughout my life from geology to diving to flying to operations, like maybe the exception of the art gallery, all of it has come together in this job. So it's been pretty cool.

Bryan: 36:09

That seems to be another recurring theme that we've talked we we kind of mentioned in the first episode that anything is possible. Another recurring theme within your career just seems to be that all these things just come together. All these experiences contribute to the whole, and you seem to be able to put them to use in other environments.

Erin: 36:26

And, yeah, NASA well, I found that CanSoftcom was also very good at this. If you have a particular skill set or a competency, they'll find a way to leverage it. And then NASA's very much the same way. I was supposed to go down there, very do my CAPCOM training, which takes about a year. It's very engineering heavy.

Erin: 36:43

You take a bunch of classes and you sit console and work as a CAPCOM once you've finished your qualification about once a week. And then the rest of the time, I think the plan was to offer a little bit of administrative assistance here and there to the Canadian Astronaut Corps. And then that got blown up into, Oh my gosh, Erin used to be an operations officer, and she's a helicopter pilot, and she's got a background in geology. We have a hole in the operations office. We need an OPSO.

Erin: 37:12

Johnny Kim is probably gonna get assigned. He's the medical doctor, Navy SEAL astronaut guy. Yeah. Yeah. No big deal.

Erin: 37:18

I'll just take over his job, guys. What?

Bryan: 37:21

Yeah. He's pretty famous.

Erin: 37:23

He's he's he's an amazing guy. We didn't have much of a handover, but we're also starting to use helicopters a lot more in astronaut training as well. And they said, Listen, you're the only current qualified helicopter pilot that we have available. How do you feel about helping us with this acquisition program and designing us a training plan that matches the skills that the astronauts will need to kind of get repetitions with when they land on the moon. It's not a perfect analog, but some of that thinking in the vertical domain and dealing with visual illusions and that kind of stuff.

Erin: 37:52

I'm like, yeah, sure, guys. I can do that. And same with the geology is learning about lunar geology and how it applies to the ops that we're trying to do down there and make sure that the training that we're giving our astronauts makes sense. So all of these things have come together in this job. And despite, you know, I don't have a background, like a professional background in designing training syllabuses and managing astronaut training, but all of the stuff I've done in the CAF has inadvertently very much prepared me for this job.

Erin: 38:25

And it's also very extremely rare that I think that NASA, after only knowing you for a little while, would say, yes, let's give you a deputy branch chief job normally held by a colonel astronaut because you've been vetted and vouched for by two Canadians that we really respect. And we're confident that if they've assessed your background as appropriate for this, we trust that the training they've had from the air force as well has prepared them to be astronauts. We think you can do this operations job and be a deputy branch chief. So it's a huge responsibility. It's very humbling, I'll say that much.

Erin: 38:58

And it's also a lot of work, but it is absolutely amazing to be leveraged to the extent of your capacity with all of the skills that you have. It's kind of a neat position to be in. You get to use everything you've ever learned.

Bryan: 39:11

Yeah. No kidding.

Erin: 39:13

Mhmm.

Bryan: 39:14

So you mentioned that you had about three months from that phone call with Jeremy Hansen to your posting starting in Houston, which must have been hectic. What were the first few months like after moving there, and what were there any initial challenges?

Erin: 39:26

You know what? I think the biggest challenge was they told me about the weather, but no one told me about the flying cockroaches. Right? That was a thing that no one told me was a thing here. Like giant tuna fish.

Erin: 39:38

The what? Flying cockroaches, man. Oh, no. It's insane. I'm joking.

Erin: 39:42

And alligators. No. The biggest challenge probably was just like the little administrative stuff while you're trying to get going in a new country. The move went really well, no complaints there. I handed over all my duties.

Erin: 39:55

That was a bit of a stressor. Managed to get my last I did my instrument rating exam and another APC just so I was current when I arrived. We didn't know necessarily what kind of qualifications I needed to keep.

Bryan: 40:07

And for the listeners, an APC is an annual proficiency check. It's basically your yearly flight test.

Erin: 40:13

But it's just a little stuff like getting a driver's license and trying to figure out how the Internet works down here with all the different people and what rate I should choose for power billing and that kind of thing. But the Canadians that are already down here were super helpful. They had a bunch of tips and tricks about how to make that work. And Josh, Jeremy, and Jenny, Jenny Gibbons is our civilian Canadian astronaut who's also down here full time. And we have a bunch of full time CSA, Canadian Space Agency liaison engineers.

Erin: 40:44

They were all very excited to have another Canadian. So they were also super helpful. So I wasn't in need of a lot of like, extra assistance because they were all down here ready to help. So Mhmm. I think honestly, the worst thing was getting used to the humidity down here in the August.

Erin: 40:59

That was something else.

Bryan: 41:00

Oh, I can only imagine. We were chatting about the weather just before the interview today. And what you described for me was already like, it's the middle of winter and that's like pretty hot, the weather you guys have right now. Like, that's about the limit of my comfort zone.

Erin: 41:16

I can't imagine in summer. August is wild. It was like 40 I at one point, it was 46 degrees, and I'm like, I can't do this.

Bryan: 41:24

Wow. That's like reminds me of being in Kuwait, except there's also humidity.

Erin: 41:29

Yeah. It's the humidity that's a killer for sure.

Bryan: 41:31

Yeah. So what was your first impression of NASA when you got there?

Erin: 41:38

In a lot of ways, it actually reminded me a little bit of SOF in that everyone who is there from your maintenance engineers that take care of the buildings for you to the astronauts and everybody in between wants to be working there. So it's just everyone's excited about it and everyone's also a 100% bought into their mission as well. Regardless of what portion of the mission they're working on, you have people who are working on the International Space Station mission, or you've got people working on exploration. So going back to the moon, working on that mission, people are dedicated and they're very excited about going to work every day. And it's incredible because it's such a big facility down here that so many people, thousands of people are excited to be here every day to make sure that we're getting folks back and forth to station and completing science and then getting people ready to go to the moon and getting all of that technology ready.

Erin: 42:33

So I think that was the first thing that struck me was was just how cool it was, but also how humble and down to earth everybody is. That was kinda cool.

Bryan: 42:42

Yeah. Which is interesting that you mentioned the parallels between there and the soft world because that that's something that always seems to be a common factor when you meet someone who's worked in soft or a Sartech, for example. They just seem to be these, like, humble, quiet professionals.

Erin: 43:00

Yeah. Absolutely. And similarly with the astronauts, like, you bump into them here and there. Like, oh, hey. How are you doing?

Erin: 43:06

I'm like, I'm talking to someone who's been to space three times. This is pretty cool, but we're talking about how humid it is outside. So it's a really neat place to work for that. And what's nice is you are immediately accepted as a peer and as an equal. And it's been assessed that you have something to offer and we're happy to have you here, so let's get to work.

Erin: 43:27

And that was kind of noticed on Something I noticed on day one of something that we call Spaceflight Academy. Everyone who's brought in to potentially work in mission control ends up doing about two and a half or three months of Spaceflight Academy, which is like welcome to NASA in an onboarding of how this place works, how the flight operations directorate works, which is responsible for all of the engineering disciplines that keep station running. And it's sort of how we train everybody to work in those disciplines. And pretty much day one, the other thing I noticed too, aside from people being super humble, is how much they emphasize that you have to be ready to ask questions if you don't understand because mistakes here can potentially cost lives. And one of the first things we talked about were the errors that led to the accidents that we've had that were serious and we lost lives.

Erin: 44:21

So they put that on, they wear their heart in a sleeve and they understand that you are here to do a job, you're gonna be responsible for a system. Potentially you will be making calls in the mission control room that are life or death sometimes. So let's get ready to do that kind of work and be super professional. And it's interesting seeing these like 20, 21 year old engineers just like totally take that environment and they're learning how to be operational for the first time. So it's interesting how they can kind of get you into that mode within about three months with how they do their initial training here.

Bryan: 44:54

Man, that sounds amazing.

Erin: 44:56

So

Bryan: 44:58

you had talked a little bit about what the job at NASA initially consisted of, but it quickly exploded into something way more complex, impactful, and involved than you initially expected. At this point, you have three official job titles. NASA astronaut office deputy branch chief for crew operations, Canadian astronaut coordination officer, and International Space Station capsule communicator or ISS CAPCOM. Let's talk about your role as Canadian astronaut coordination officer first. You were the first ever Canadian astronaut coordination officer.

Bryan: 45:29

What does this role entail?

Erin: 45:30

Yeah. So that was the working title for the first go at that job that we had. And the astronauts don't really need a lot of administrative support. So that jobs more or less become having an extra Canadian officer down here and finding ways to help the CSA and the astronauts kind of link back to Canada in different ways and maybe pick up some of the projects we've been working on that we just didn't have the astronauts may not have had enough time to really focus on. Probably the best example of trying to work those linkages between someone here, human spaceflight and the RCAF is the work we've been doing in the SAR community on the East Coast to make sure that our SAR techs get the same training that the US Air Force DET three human spaceflight support people get.

Erin: 46:17

And that's what happens in the event of an abort and how you get those astronauts out of a capsule. So now because there was someone here who had time, a little bit of time to kind of reach back and knew some folks at JRCC, the Joint Rescue Coordination Center, to try and get those relationships reforged and find opportunities. So that's been a big thing is like, if there is a gap, if I can see it, I'll try and get it closed. And that's just by way of the fact you have I mean, I've been in for fifteen years. I guess you have a a senior salty captain that can kinda reach back into the air force and say, hey.

Erin: 46:50

I think there's some there's a mutual benefit here. How can we exploit that? The astronauts and the Canadians are no different. They're super busy and they don't necessarily have time to try and find those gaps or close them. And they've also been out of regular air force stuff for quite some time too.

Erin: 47:06

And I had just come out of an operational unit. So helping GRCC get more information that helps them make better operational calls for their staff, that was really important to me because it helps us buy down risk, not just for the astronauts, but for the CERTX too. Getting people out of a capsule or helping them get themselves out of a capsule is complicated. So I want them to have the tools and the training that they need to do that safely. So getting that bridge built was really important.

Erin: 47:32

And that was something that had been languishing for a little bit simply because of time and turnover. But having someone here that can pick it up is helpful. And similarly, just because of gaps, unintentional, but gaps in international agreements, there's some courses that international astronauts can't participate in. So one of those courses is the helicopter course that we do for most of our NASA astronauts. So Jenny Gibbons, she's a doctor in I think physics, but she is also a commercial pilot, but she's not a military pilot.

Erin: 48:04

So I was really interested in trying to get her the same type of military helicopter training that our NASA astronauts do. But I thought one of the best ways we can do that is probably going to Portage. Like our best instructors, well, lots of our really good instructors work at three CFFTS. So I approached honestly the fifteen wing commander and said, Is this something you think you can do? Here's the reasons why can we build a similar course for Jenny in Portage because that is a center of excellence for helicopter training, for primary helicopter training.

Erin: 48:33

And it would be a perfect solution and allow her to continue with more advanced training that we do out here that is available to international partner astronauts. So that CACO position has kind of just become another ops job with a bigger focus on how we can find linkages back to the RCF. And you guys, I guess I'm part of you guys as well. The RCF is really well respected down here for, you know, for what Jeremy and Josh have received in terms of their training and leadership training. So it's not unusual that NASA would be more than comfortable to have Canada more deeply involved in some of that training.

Erin: 49:12

So the job went from administration to essentially a more Canadian focused ops job. And that's kind of how I see it is just a way to build bridges because there are a lot of things that Canada brings to the table. It's just a matter of having a person, like a body, able to devote time to to make that known. That makes sense.

Bryan: 49:30

Yeah. Wow. So that job has really changed from kind of what it was initially supposed to be to what it has evolved into.

Erin: 49:37

Yeah. That's also my problem too because I I just can't leave things alone. So it definitely it definitely probably took on more than was required, but it's hard for me to see a gap in capability that I know could be filled with a little bit of effort. And people in Canada have been very receptive as well. Like I'm super appreciative of how much effort GRCC with their already incredibly busy mandate on the East Coast and the West Coast shortly too, have been devoting just a little bit of extra time to the space file here.

Erin: 50:09

And I think it's good extra situational awareness for them so that everyone's a little bit safer. I don't anticipate an abort. They're super rare. It's not a thing that happens very often, but there is always that potential. And you wanna arm people with as much information as possible if that were to happen.

Erin: 50:27

I don't want them if there's a way to close that gap, I'm gonna close it. And that's kind of what this job has become.

Bryan: 50:33

Yeah, for sure. Okay, Aaron, that's gonna wrap up part two of our chat for today. I really, really enjoyed hearing about your time in four two seven Squadron as well as the beginning of your time down in Houston. And I'm really looking forward to finishing up our chat next time and hearing about all the work you're doing with the Canadian Space Agency and NASA. So thank you very much.

Erin: 50:52

Thank you.

Bryan: 50:53

Alright. That wraps up part two of our chat with captain Erin Edwards, the current jack of all trades working for the Canadian Space Agency down in Houston. For our next episode, we'll be reconnecting with Erin for the final part of our discussion and talking all about her work with the Canadian Space Agency and NASA. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?

Bryan: 51:16

You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.

Bryan: 51:40

Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.

Intro/Outro: 51:45

Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.