Episode 66: The Counter-Drug Ops: Flying SAR and counter-narcotics missions in the Caribbean and flying the De Havilland Dash 8 for PAL Part 1 - Pat Lalande, Trevor Juby
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I am your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is Trevor Juby, a retired RCAF lieutenant colonel and current base chief pilot with Provincial Airlines or Powell Aerospace in Curacao, and Pat Lalonde, a retired RCAF master warrant officer and current tactical coordinator and mission commander with Powell Aerospace in Curacao. Guys, welcome to the show.
Bryan:I'm so glad we could put this together.
Trevor:Thanks for having us, Brian.
Pat:Yeah. Thanks very much. This is gonna be great.
Bryan:So before we start, let's get to know each of our guests. Master warrant officer retired Patrick Lalonde joined the Canadian forces in 1993 as a then field engineer. At that time, the CF were downsizing and the air force career he always wanted was not available. After a decade in the army that included multiple operational units, two overseas deployments to Croatia and Kosovo and an instructor posting, an opportunity to transfer to the air force air crew occupation presented itself. Jumping on this chance, he became an airborne electronic sensor operator or ASOP in 2004 and headed to the then Canadian Forces Air Navigation School for the six month basic ASOP course.
Bryan:Upon graduation, he was posted to four fifteen maritime patrol squadron at 14 Wing Greenwood. Immediately on arrival, he began the maritime operational air crew training or MOAT course at four zero four maritime patrol and training squadron. Only a few weeks into the course, personnel challenges within the fleet meant that Patrick's assignment was suddenly changed to four zero seven maritime patrol squadron in Colmox BC. Following completion of Mote, he began his operational career with four zero seven squadron participating in training exercises in such places as California, Hawaii, Alaska, Japan, and Italy. Also during that first squadron tour, he deployed multiple times on OP Carib as well as OP Mobile.
Bryan:In 02/2011, Patrick was posted to Ottawa serving as the technical electronic intelligence or tech ELINT analysis at the Canadian Forces Electronic Warfare Center. Once again, RCAF personnel challenges resulted in a short assignment sending Patrick back to four zero seven squadron a year later. During this second squadron tour, he served as ASOP training officer, ASOP standards officer, and senior ASOP reaching the rank of master warrant officer. Multiple deployments to OP Karib, Japan for OP DriftNet, and nine months to OP Impact flying 31 missions while holding a full time ground job were the highlights of this period. 2016 brought a new posting, this time a super superintendent of the combat operations division at the one CAD CANAR combined aerospace operations center or CAOC.
Bryan:This ground assignment was also rather brief with Patrick deciding to release from the CAF in March 2017. After two years as a civilian, he accepted an offer to reenroll in the RCAF in the ASOP occupation and went back to Ottawa as the sensor subject matter expert for the fixed wing SAR project. As is tradition now, this posting would be a short one. In late two thousand nineteen, he was surprised with an overseas flying job offer. In February 2020, he joined the Powell Aerospace team in Curacao as a tactical coordinator and mission commander, flying maritime patrol dash eights for the Dutch Caribbean coast guard where he is to this day.
Bryan:Patrick lives just outside of Willemstad with his wife. His spare time is devoted to aviation photography, a hobby that has fast become a side hustle into magazine work with publications such as Skies Magazine and Air Forces Monthly. So Pat, what initially led you to join the CF?
Pat:Well, I grew up in a military family. My dad was in a did twenty two years in the military. So I dreamt of a few other things, know, I dreamt of being a Formula One driver and a rock star of course. But there was never any doubt, in my mind that I would join the military and I did so as soon as I could, sort of a family affair.
Bryan:Yeah, it's kind of one of those things every now and then I get a guess where it's sort of in their blood and it sounds like that's the case for you as well.
Pat:Absolutely, I would say exactly that.
Bryan:Yeah, you joined the CF as a field engineer. Can you tell us what that trade's all about?
Pat:Yeah, well, the time I joined, there was budget cuts, post cold war sort of drawdown. And when I walked in the recruiting center, they offered me a field engineer, artillery or armored. So after hearing the description field engineer sounded good because you got to play with explosives, blow things up. You got to shoot guns, you got to build things that sounded like an all arounder and that I could really learn some cool skills and like clearing landmines, doing explosive ordinance disposal. As a 17 year old, that sounded absolutely perfect.
Pat:So that's what the trade was about. Got to build bridges, got to blow up the same bridge after it was built. Was all really fun.
Bryan:It live up to your expectations?
Pat:In the end, it was a lot different than I expected, but it was all a lot of fun. It delivered on everything that was on the brochure, so to speak. I got to play with a lot of explosives, blow a lot of things up. It's just maybe as a naive 16, 17 year old, it was a lot more physically demanding, than I expected. So the physical training aspects of the training was a lot more demanding.
Pat:There was a lot more push ups, there was a lot more pull ups, there was a lot more of running than I expected. I thought it was gonna be like construction and demolition work. Even though we got to shoot guns, I wasn't expecting to be that combat oriented, which I naively didn't really relate it to a combat arms trade, which is what it turned out to be. So it was all a lot of fun, but it was a lot more work than I thought it was when I started.
Bryan:So it kind of had like almost more infantry type, there was more infantry in the mix than you expected maybe.
Pat:Oh, absolutely. A big part of the training was the same as the basic infantry course. At the beginning, we had to learn all the same tactics before we could move on to doing our primary job as engineers. And I hadn't quite expected that. I thought I was going to learn to shoot rifles, fire machine guns.
Pat:I didn't expect to be, anti tank weapons and, section attacks, that kind of thing. Yeah. That was somewhat of a surprise to me, but it was all part of the job. So it made it, demanding and interesting.
Bryan:Yeah. So a little more variety almost than you expected.
Pat:Absolutely. It was like learning two entire trades, for the Canadian forces.
Bryan:Yeah. You did two tours in Croatia and Kosovo. What was your time in Croatia like and what was the mission there?
Pat:That was a UN peacekeeping tour in the Former Yugoslavia. That was really my first exposure to operational things. So it was all right from the beginning was all big and scary. I was in the country I'd really never heard of before. And we landed at the airport in Zagreb and the buses came to pick us up and there was bullet holes in the glass.
Pat:So that was my, I'm 18 years old going, where the hell did I just landed kind of a moment. But it was my first opportunity to really do my job for real. So clearing real landmines that had been in place during the civil war. Up until that point, it was only training with fake ones. Now it's like, this is for real.
Pat:People were shooting real bullets and it was real armies that we were dealing with. So as 18, 19 years old, it was 1994, that was all sort of surreal at the beginning. And we just did all the work to support the battalion. So we constructed observation posts for the infantry platoons that were out on the zone of separation. We cleared landmines on roads, we built roads, we did all the entire spectrum of field engineer work in a six month period.
Pat:It was a great professional experience because you got to do everything that you trained to do in the year or so prior to deploying. It was really good for that because you got to do it for real.
Bryan:What's it like the first time you clear a real landmine? That's gotta be pretty crazy.
Pat:Absolutely. It's sort of like, I remember the first mine that we encountered, it was just that hyper focus of attention. It's like, okay, this is how we deal with this. This is the precautions we have to take. And it's like, it came back from training, but it was like the heart racing and just I I can't describe the level of focus that that it required just to get over the the the holy hell moment of of finding one of these things.
Pat:And now it's like, okay, we can't screw this up.
Bryan:Did it become like did you guys deal with those landmines a fair bit to the point that this just became part of the job or was it always pretty intense when you had to deal with one?
Pat:No. It was always pretty intense. Think if it wasn't always pretty intense, it would be dangerous for yourself and others to lackadaisical attitudes. So it was always that hyper focus, but it became normal to see them for real. By the time I rotated home, it was just another part of the job.
Pat:That was a great six months spent in Croatia where I learned a lot and even did some things that I never expected to do because it was new. We got tasked as infantry in a couple of situations. So the training that we had taken back when I went through the engineer school in Chilliwack, it was like, okay, this is why we learned that because this is part of our job.
Bryan:Yeah. Was there still active shooting war going on in Croatia at that time or was it more like cleaning up from the war?
Pat:Yeah. The the ceasefire between the the the parties had been well established by then, but just like just like we see in ceasefires and other places, there was always little flare ups here and there. So it was always the typical UN thing is that we would note what was happening and reported higher headquarters for the political side to deal with things. But there was often where we had to intervene between groups from either party Croatia and keep them separated and put out the fire so to speak. But as far as general shooting or the ceasefire itself had been implemented well before my rotation arrived, my rotation was rotation five.
Pat:So it was well settled by then.
Bryan:Okay, that must have been pretty intense though to sometimes have to put yourself between the different parties.
Pat:I'm sure you can imagine, as an 18 or 19 year old, I didn't have a whole lot of life experience so it was pretty intense to be trying to keep two groups of people that are quite angry at each other and armed of course to keep the situation from flaring into something worse and the tense moments like that. So I was just a kid at the time still. So it was the most intense intense things that I've had ever experienced up to that point.
Bryan:Yeah. It's kind of the wild thing about, I guess, I I guess combat in general and any of these any of these more intense missions is like it's easy to forget that a lot of the people who are there conducting them are, like, 17 to 25 or so.
Pat:We were all we were all still pretty young at the time. So even the guys that were in leadership positions were still pretty comparatively young. And for somebody who had just come out of high school, I didn't know how to deal with a lot of things. So we learned on the special for me, it was a lot of learning on the fly, so to speak. Yeah.
Pat:How to deal with people, especially in languages that, I don't speak or, you know, French and English didn't come in handy when everybody spoke Serbo, Corat or German.
Bryan:Yeah. I was gonna say, did did you guys have translators with you or how did that work?
Pat:Yeah. We frequently had, local personnel to to translate, but there's always an element of you gotta wonder who you can and can't trust when translators are involved.
Bryan:For sure.
Pat:So we had some good ones. We had some that weren't quite necessarily the best, but there was a lot of good people that we got to work with in what's essentially a pretty bad situation. There were still some good people around. So that was really good.
Bryan:Yeah, right on. So let's talk a little about Kosovo. I know Kosovo was an active shooting war, at least I've been told that about the air war. What was it like on the ground and what was your mission in Kosovo?
Pat:So we deployed ahead of an actual ceasefire. So it was all very last minute that was posted in Edmonton at the time. And we sort of rushed out the door to get to Macedonia. And essentially as soon as the ceasefire The bombings were still going on. But as soon as a ceasefire agreement was hammered out, sort of The bomb stopped raining down and we rolled across the border into Kosovo and sort of a quasi relief in place of the Serbian army there.
Pat:So every time we move forward, we could watch them leave back to Serbia and sort of secure the countryside so that the ceasefire agreement that had been implemented would work out, keeping the Serbs separated from the local Albanian population. So we sort of caught the tail end of the shooting war. And as we were driving North, you could see the impact because you could see the destroyed military equipment, damaged bridges. It was really interesting to sort of follow the end of the shooting aspects of the war, the air war, and to see the impact of it as we drove North and see people come out and tell us about what had happened, where the Serbian army was, where it all happened very, very quickly. So it was all like for me, I sort of, even though it was my second deployment, it's in itself was a new experience.
Pat:So I learned a lot and it was all very dynamic. And then, our first encounters with the Russian army for me were quite tense because didn't know what to expect from that. Having joined on the tail end of the cold war where the Soviet Army was sort of the main focus, as a hostile force to my first encounter with Russians was really, like, another surreal experience.
Bryan:The Russians were there as part of the peacekeeping force? Or
Pat:they were sort of on their own. They just appeared out of nowhere one day, having taken control of the airport in Pristina. So we started encountering them with road checkpoints when it was near the airport. And there's all sorts of things that we heard about them taking equipment from bunkers back to Russia, locations where the Serbian army had been. But I never actually saw those things, so I can't confirm that.
Pat:But we did spend a lot of time going through roadblocks that were manned by Russian soldiers. And it was a again, you know, I was a little older, but still not knowing what to expect encountering them.
Bryan:Yeah. That must have been pretty tense, I would think.
Pat:Yeah. It's it's an experience I won't I won't forget.
Bryan:Yeah. No doubt. These conflicts in the Balkans were pretty notorious for putting peacekeepers in tough situations. Did you ever encounter anything like that?
Pat:No. Like, if by that you mean, like, the the the very famous hostage situations, I've never been involved in that. My first tour in Croatia, our section was caught in between Serbians and Croatians shooting at each other, and we became a convenient target in the middle on one incident.
Bryan:Oh, wow.
Pat:But never anything really that traumatic or that was sort of newsworthy. Just my first tour in Croatia, one of the vehicles from the anti armor platoon hit a landmine. So I was on the quick reaction section for the engineers that responded to a landmine strike to go get the guys out of the situation they were in. And shortly after we arrived on the scene, the shooting between the parties began and we were in the middle. So they were shooting at each other, they were both shooting at us and that's that's about as dangerously exciting between the two parties that it got on my tour.
Bryan:That's crazy. Did did it get to a point where you guys had to return fire or what did you guys do when when you found you were being shot at by both sides?
Pat:No, we just made sure everybody was safe, got into a position to return fire if we needed to. But of course it's not the UN's business to start shooting at either party if it's not necessary. So we just followed procedures for dealing with an area that we know have landmines and extracted ourselves and the guys from the anti armor platoon out of that situation and returned to base.
Bryan:That is intense, that's crazy. So let's talk about joining the air force and your training as an Aesop. What inspired you to make the switch over to the aviation side of the CAF? And what skills do you think the army gave you that served you well as you made your switch to the air force?
Pat:So I was on my last posting that I had in the army, I was instructing at the engineer school and the field engineer slash combat engineer trade, because it had been renamed for the first time since I had joined, healthy enough to allow some people, a limited number of people to do an occupational transfer to something else. And I had always intended to join the Air Force, but that was not available, when I joined. So I saw an opportunity, to make a switch to what I always wanted to do. And I applied for airborne electronic sensor operator, which was always open for occupational transfer. So I did all the testing and all the paperwork and was finally accepted to the trade a year later.
Pat:So the inspiration was I always wanted to fly. I didn't have the eyesight, to be a pilot. I didn't have the education to be an officer, at the time either. So that seemed like, oh, it's an air crew trade. I get to fly something.
Pat:That's what I wanted to do since I was five. Okay, let's go.
Bryan:Right on.
Pat:And, you know, I was at the time, I discounted the experience that I had in the army, to okay, I'm going to the air force. It's not gonna be relevant. But I couldn't have been farther from the truth. The army puts you, in leadership situations as early as possible, and that came in really handy because I found that in the air force, but in the trade that I was in, leadership roles were almost immediate upon finishing the training. And it taught me a lot of self discipline because it was necessary as a sensor operator that it was very academic and it required a lot of studying and preparation.
Pat:And I think my army experience really set the tone for that, that I was ready for the challenges of the new trade because of my time in the army.
Bryan:That's awesome. I think that there's a lot more relevance between the trades and between the various elements, I think, than people realize. Like, everyone I speak to who comes from the army and joins the air force, they bring a ton of valuable skills with them. And I think the strongest skill that people from the army tend to bring, and you see this in a lot of Aesop's who are former combat arms or former trades in the army, is leadership, like you said. One thing we don't do, at least I can speak for the pilot world, we don't do formal leadership training.
Bryan:You do basic training, that's you get a little leadership training there. And then basically after that it's up to mentorship to hopefully you have good mentors. They teach you to be a good leader. I always found it very impressive that people who come from the army and the combat arms specifically, the very strong foundation and leadership that they have.
Pat:Yeah. I would agree with that. And I've seen it in a lot of guys that came, to to the Aesop trade after I did. And you could you could really tell where they were from and and and how they approached situations. And just their general bearing, really showed that, oh, you you came from the army.
Pat:I can tell.
Bryan:Well, yeah. It would even be as simple as like troops eat first, like little things like that. Right?
Pat:Yeah. Exactly.
Bryan:So what was life like at the Canadian Forces Air Navigation School in 02/2004? Can you tell us a little bit about the training courses there for ASOS?
Pat:Yeah, so that was like the introduction to the air force for me. It was very different. I showed up at the school in Winnipeg and it was just on the tail end of winter. So it was still cold there and you get your room and it's like instructions show up tomorrow morning. Nobody's yelling at you on day one with, you know, and it's like, oh, what am I missing here?
Pat:Am I supposed to be somewhere? I remember getting the keys to my room in the barracks. I walked into my room, looked around. I'm like, no, no, this is somebody else's room. And going back to accommodations because this must be for someone else.
Pat:I've got my own bathroom. There's a coffee machine. There's a microwave. This can't be mine. There should be 12 bunk beds in a room.
Bryan:Yeah. Like, this must be for a major or something.
Pat:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And they of course, the the staff at accommodations knew understood my reaction exactly because they're they laughed out loud a little bit and said, no, no, it's the I had gone down and ranked a corporal again and they're like, no, no, this is your room. This is where you're gonna be for the next six to eight months.
Pat:I'm like, oh, okay. So right away there was a bit of a somewhat of a culture shock. But the next day at the school, it was your typical school environment. We had introductions with the school staff. The routine was explained.
Pat:It was familiar. It wasn't an alien thing. It was just presented a little bit differently, but they wasted no time. The course was scheduled for ninety three or ninety four training days. So there was absolutely no time to waste.
Pat:So we rolled into classes immediately and, you know, the first class of course, at the time in the curriculum was math. And we wrote the math exam because in the lead up to the course we had to do this math package and I'm the least mathematically inclined guy you'll ever meet. So I wrote the math exam, not do so well. And that was my introduction. Okay, this is going to be hard and I've got to figure this out and refocus.
Pat:And it was hard and the rest of the course was no easier either. But I'm like, okay, I'm in for a challenge on this one, but this is what I want to do.
Bryan:Can you tell us a little bit more about kind of what the course consisted of beyond that first test?
Pat:Yeah, so of course, entry level training as aircrew. So some people are less familiar than others. So it was a very much like the airplane 101. So this is an airplane, this is how it flies kind of thing. The ABCs of airplane, we covered a lot of weather, we covered a lot of basic sensor theory, like how does radar work, how does infrared work?
Pat:A lot of electronic warfare stuff. We talked a lot about navigation. The course very focused on air navigation. So how to figure out where you are, how to navigate an airplane from one point to the next, how to calculate your drift, how to calculate winds aloft. It was a lot in a short amount of time, very challenging.
Pat:Some people struggled through certain parts. And in the end, what started as a course with eight students, we graduated four. So 50% success rate.
Bryan:Wow. That's a pretty high attrition rate.
Pat:Yeah. I I definitely thought so. I nothing in my army experience had prepared me for 50% acceptable losses kind of thing.
Bryan:Yeah. No kidding. Following training, you were initially posted to four fifteen Maritime Patrol Squadron in Greenwood, Nova Scotia on the Aurora. Were you excited to get Aurora's or did you want Sea Kings?
Pat:Yes to both. I was excited to go with the Aurora and yes, I wanted Sea Kings. Situation at the end of the course was very dynamic. We had the late training failure. So I was talked into going Sea Kings by some of the instructors that had talked it up and it was the best place to go, the best experience.
Pat:I'm like, okay, I wanna go to Seakings. So I was asking for four twenty three Maritime Helicopter Squadron in Shearwater. And it looked like that's where I was gonna go. And then I flew my checkride and came back, successful checkride. And my chief instructor pulled me aside saying, Hey, I know you got your heart set on four twenty three, but we are going to have to replace the other guy that just failed.
Pat:And he was going to four fifteen. Four fifteen really needs somebody and that's going to be you. So I said, Oh, okay, I'm going to Aurora's. And in retrospect after that, I'm like, yeah, yeah, Aurora sounds pretty good. I had sat in an Aurora when I was seven years old.
Pat:So it kind of a memory tied to that. I'm like, okay, right. Aurora is it is. I'm happy with this. In retrospect, I never really enjoyed boats.
Pat:So it was probably good that I never went to the Navy.
Bryan:Yeah. I always thought that the maritime helicopter world sounded really cool, but like the idea of being on a ship for six months had zero appeal to me. So
Pat:Yeah. In the end, that's how I looked at it. I mean, I don't think I could be on on a frigate or a destroyer for six to seven months only seeing water. I'm glad that I was moved to Aurora's and looking back on it twenty years later, that really worked out for me. So I was really excited once it was all settled.
Bryan:For sure. So it's kind of funny that you got switched last minute from Sea Kings to Auroras because that kind of became a trend in your career. While you were mid course on the Aurora, you were changed from East to West Coast and posted to four zero seven Maritime Patrol Squadron in Comox BC. Was that stressful or were you excited to head out to BC?
Pat:I was absolutely excited to to go to BC. Drove into, so I was posted to Greenwood that was in Gagetown at the time. So I went to Gagetown, picked up my things after graduating from Winnipeg. And I drove into Greenwood on a Sunday, looked around, everything was closed and you know exactly how Greenwood can be. I looked around, I'm like, where am I?
Pat:You know, just wondering and then started renting a fun, an apartment to rent, moved in and just got busy with the course. I kind of got over my initial shock of coming to the Annapolis Valley. And I don't want to slag it too much, but I was already getting the feel that it wasn't really for me. And one day the senior ASAP at four zero four Squadron came into the classroom and he said, there's been a change on the posting plot. We need somebody from this group to go to.
Pat:As soon as he said the word to, he hadn't even said the location yet. I had my hand up as I'll go, I'll take it. And he said, it's Comox, you sure? I'm like, absolutely. And then within two weeks, I had a posting message.
Pat:So I went to the move office, Brookfield. I walked in and said, I'm here to close my claim for the move here to Greenwood. They signed some papers and I didn't leave the counter. The lady said, is there something else we can do for you? Yep.
Pat:I'm posted to Comox. I'm here to open the file.
Bryan:The good old days where you had someone to help you through it all.
Pat:Yeah. Before it was all online and you struggled to to to talk to somebody maybe, but yeah, she was so surprised and and all the work that they did and it's like, I'm I'm moving again. They turned me they turned me around and it was simply because manpower shortages and four fifteen Squadron was being closed. So everybody was moving to 405. It was just a unusual timing.
Pat:But like you said, the short posting set the tone for me.
Bryan:How was the MOAT course, which is the Maritime Operational Air Crew Training course. How was that course for you on the Aurora?
Pat:It was long. It was a long course. Scheduled for six to eight months. It was very long, but I felt at home doing that course and then the training. There are some times during the basic sensor operator course in Winnipeg where things were foreign.
Pat:I had never worked with radar before. So there was a bit of a hump of practical experience to get over and knowledge. But once I showed up on Mote, it was very focused on mission wise. So now I'm like, okay, I understand and I always enjoyed dealing with multi crew environments. So it was great.
Pat:The different trades did the course together for the most part. It was challenging, but not everything was new. It was just new procedures and new equipment. But that's where career wise as a sensor operator, it started feeling like home. I really, really enjoyed the training.
Bryan:Yeah. Mode is a long course and it can be fairly intense sometimes. Like, there's so much to learn. The Aurora is a complicated aircraft and the mission is complex. There's so many tactics and procedures to learn, but it is fun.
Bryan:It is nice to get be getting operationally trained and like you're gonna finally be doing the job that you've been training for for years.
Pat:Yeah. It was great because it was no longer abstract like it was during the basic sensor operator course. It was like the first ASW OMS session. It was great because there was that satisfaction. Okay, I know this, I've studied for that.
Pat:Yeah, okay. Finding a submarine looks exactly the way that they told us it would and we were successful. We followed the procedures and it worked. It was like, okay, you know, like we always said, the joke was push button, get banana. It really worked.
Pat:So it was like, okay, let's do this again because now we can do it better. And I just got to study a little bit more, correct these things. Boom, it worked. It was very much step by step approach that really led to success. And it was so enjoyable to work with, you know, a 10 man crew.
Pat:It was a lot of fun. Would do most all over again.
Bryan:Yeah. And you mentioned the OMS, that's the operational mission simulator. And I remember, it's funny, you talk about your first sim there making so much sense. I remember as a pilot, my first ride in the OMS and just being totally, you know, first of all, that was the older OMS. So there was just a couple dials for the pilots to fly the plane.
Bryan:Like, there was no cockpit setup. But I remember just feeling like totally in the deep end because we receive I I think you guys had already been trained in some of that kind of stuff. Like for us, it was our really our first exposure to ASW. And for the listeners, ASW is anti submarine warfare. And we I definitely felt like we've been thrown in the deep end, but the OMS is such a great tool for everyone obviously.
Bryan:But I think pilots kind of tend to groan when they find out they're in the OMS that day, but it's like the best tool for you to learn tactics and for you to finally start to understand ASW.
Pat:Yeah, I spent a lot of time at the pilot station in the legacy OMS simply because pilots were not available for the sessions and it was definitely artificial with an altitude knob and a turn knob and just a basic screen. It wasn't really flying plus you were physically removed because you're outside the box. You're physically removed for the crew. So for the pilots, it was definitely less than ideal. I think in subsequent OMS evolutions, was kind of a little better in that regard.
Pat:But just listening to the comms and the standard calls between the crews and SMM calls, as we call them, was good for everyone. And it was such a Other than it didn't move, it was a really, really good simulation of what we would do on the Aurora when we were flying.
Bryan:For sure. Well, thanks for that Pat. We're gonna shift gears here and talk to Trevor about some of his early days and then we will start talking about all your guys worked down in Curacao. So let's go over Trevor's bio. Lieutenant colonel retired, Trevor Jube joined the Canadian forces in 1996 under the regular officer training plan.
Bryan:From 1996 to February, he attended the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ontario and graduated with a bachelor's degree in political science and economics. Trevor started pilot training in Moose Jaw in February 2002 and graduated from multi engine training in Portage La Prairie in December 2002. From 2003 to 02/2008, he was posted to four zero seven long range patrol squadron in Comox, British Columbia flying the CP 140 Aurora. During his five years at four zero seven, he upgraded to maritime patrol crew commander, unit instrument check pilot and the pilot standards and training officer or PSTO. He deployed to Hawaii and San Diego numerous times as well as detachments to Whitehorse, Yellowknife, Kinloss, Shemya and Curacao.
Bryan:From 2008 to 2012, he was to Geilichirchen, Germany on the NATO AWACS E3A Boeing seven zero seven. He spent two years on the operational three squadron and a further two years on the training squadron reaching aircraft captain as well as a qualified instructor and evaluator. During his time in Europe, was also promoted to the rank of major. Highlights include multiple deployments around Europe to NATO's forward operating bases and three deployments to the Libyan conflict. From 2012 to 2014, having enjoyed too many years in the cockpit, he was posted to a ground job in Winnipeg at one Canadian air division a three special events.
Bryan:There he worked in the special events division and as CF eighteen demo team safety pilot. He spent two years traveling Canada and The US perfecting his airshow voice, including a career highlight of an air show in Medellin, Colombia deploying as the detachment commander of two Hornets and an Airbus. In 2014 to 2015, he was posted in charge of the Advanced Performance Center in Winnipeg, Manitoba becoming the chief instructor of instrument check pilot school and school for human performance in military aviation. In 2015, he was selected for staff college at the Canadian Forces College in Toronto, Ontario and spent a year enjoying Toronto studying and completing a master's in defense management. During his time at Canadian Forces College, he was promoted to lieutenant colonel.
Bryan:From 2016 to 02/2018, Trevor returned to Winnipeg, Manitoba for his command tour as the commanding officer of operation support squadron seventeen wing. This was the first year when they had combined wing ops, wing tests, wing readiness, military police, Hornet FOL support and security, the commissionaires and gate security, wing auxiliary security force, explosives ordinance disposal, and general wing overall problem solver. In 2018, a unique opportunity arose to leave the Canadian forces and take a position in The Caribbean with PAL Aerospace as their chief pilot Curacao base. He has been working in Curacao since then as the chief pilot Curacao base operations team representative and head scheduler for the Dutch Caribbean coast guard. Trevor has over seven thousand hours in maritime patrol and ISR aircraft including multiple combat sorties over Libya.
Bryan:In summer two thousand twenty five, Trevor will be returning to Canada to take the position as chief pilot for the future aircrew training or FACT multi sensor aircrew trainer or MSAT that will eventually be based in Winnipeg, Manitoba taking over training duties of the future Axo and Aesop's on the new Q400 Citadel. During his days off, Trevor and his family spend their time traveling and exploring South America, scuba diving, lionfish hunting, mountain biking and enjoying Caribbean life. He is married to one of the most adventurous and resilient women he's ever met and they have identical twin 15 year old boys. So Trevor, where did aviation begin for you?
Trevor:Aviation for me, Brian, having listened to your show quite a lot, I have a very similar, I guess, trajectory than a lot of your previous guests. I first started growing up in Ottawa, till I was about 14. Really liked aircraft, you know, going to air shows, especially in Ontario and that area of, of Canada. There's always air shows during the summer. Had, both my grandfathers and my grandmother had served in World War II, so there was it was quite a, military heritage in my family.
Trevor:I was interested, you know, in the military, interested in military aviation specifically. And I'm sure people will make fun of me for telling you this, but, I spent my summers growing up down in The US in Maryland with my mother's side of the family. And Top Gun came out in '86, and it was huge in The United States. So I went and saw the movie in theater. You remember there was a huge increase in, navy recruiting back then.
Bryan:No doubt.
Trevor:And it stuck with me. You know, I was I was, 10 at the time. I remember thinking, wow, this is this is amazing that someone would be able to do this. So, I was in Ottawa, age of 12. You know, I asked my parents if I could enroll in French immersion in grade seven so I could be ready for an application in the military because I knew you needed to have French.
Trevor:We lived on a horse farm on the outskirts of Ottawa. So at the time air cadets wasn't on the radar, but it would be shortly. My dad was, RCMP. And, in, when I was around 14, he was posted to Whitehorse UK and they had an air cadet squadron there. So I joined five fifty one squadron and, started going through, you know, being a junior cadet.
Trevor:My dad was a inspector there at the at the detachment, the RCMP detachment, became good friends with the, the two RCMP pilots that flew there in Whitehorse. They fly twin otters and they actually fly single pilot twin otters if you can believe it.
Bryan:Really?
Trevor:The commanding officer of the detachment there, he had a, single engine Satabria, fully aerobatic. The head mechanic had an old chipmunk. There was another, guy on the, field that had a chipmunk. So on the weekends, I was given the chance to go fly with these guys out of Whitehorse. And at the same time, of course, with cadets, I realized that I could get my license as I was doing this.
Trevor:So, you know, it really started to solidify what I wanted to do with my life. I ended up going to Kochililak to do my glider. My power was done in Yellowknife. And then I came back the next summer for power staff in Yellowknife before I aged out at cadets. But between air cadets and flying to the north, you know, that's I knew that's what I wanted to do.
Bryan:That's awesome. It's pretty rare for somebody to have those kinds of opportunities to fly. What was it like to have so many opportunities to fly diverse set of aircraft in such a remote area at such a young age?
Trevor:Yeah. You know, at the time, after I got my, my private license there, you know, I was in high school. And instead of hiding out with the friends on a weekend, I went flying with my dad's coworkers. And I look back now and I think, I owe those guys a, a debt. I am I am so grateful that I decided to give this young teenager, you know, the guidance that they did in aviation.
Trevor:And I began to realize I began to realize that there's there's so many options out there to fly. And as I mentioned, there was another pilot there at the White Horse Airport that had a had a chipmunk. And he was a cafe, aircraft captain. And that was the first time I'd met anyone making that type of money. You know, if any of the cafe pilots that are listening, he was on the old A class with the famous million dollar pension scheme.
Bryan:Oh, nice.
Trevor:So I realized, you know, you could fly special missions for the RCMP, you could fly for an airline, Or if your career wasn't really aviation centric, like the CO, the detachment up there, you could could buy your own plane and you can fly on the weekends.
Bryan:Yeah.
Trevor:So it made me realize that people who love aviation will find a way.
Bryan:So let's talk about when you joined the military and went to RMC. When you first applied for pilot, the trade was closed, but you were offered Mars officer or infantry. What did you decide to do and why?
Trevor:Yeah. This this is a good story. This could have gone a different different way, I guess. So, yeah, graduated from high school in the Yukon in '94 and had applied for pilot. But that was right around the time that many of the listeners will remember the FRP, the force reduction plan, and, pilot was closed.
Trevor:They weren't accepting pilots that year. So, you know, you you hear the the classic joke, hey. Do you like camping? I love the infantry. Oh, Infantry and Mars were open.
Trevor:And I was, you know, I considered it, but I, I really was really wanted to fly, especially with this background in, in the North. So I I started a diploma of science at Yukon College, started flying at the local, at the Whitehorse Flying Club and, waited for pilot to open. So in '95, you know, I reapplied and pilot was still closed, if you can believe it. And the same offer was on the table, infantry and Mars. I had actually also kind of started to consider joining the RCMP and their air detachment, but learned at the time that's before the air constable program.
Trevor:So you had to serve as a member in the force for up to seven to nine years
Bryan:Oh, wow.
Trevor:Before they'd look at you. And you need to have your own ratings, which as we know, you know, as someone starting out is expensive.
Bryan:For sure.
Trevor:So, yeah, so I decided to, to finish my, diploma of science there. I had started to focus on criminology and policing, and, I tried one more time for the military after I graduated. And if it was still closed, then, you know, I'd consider those other military trades or even potentially the RCMP.
Bryan:Okay.
Trevor:And then ninety six came up and pilot was open and I was accepted.
Bryan:Which must have been a huge relief after all that waiting.
Trevor:Yeah, it's, it it was. I was excited that it was open. I mean, of course, nervous, because as you know, that's just that's just the first step.
Bryan:Yeah.
Trevor:Now you, you've you've been accepted into RMC as a pilot, but now you still have to pass aircrew selection and the medical and all those things. So luckily, yeah, I did I did, make it through and started it in RMC that year.
Bryan:It it's definitely the first hurdle, like you said. Now I think your experience is pretty timely right now because many hopeful pilots are currently facing the same scenario, which is a closed trade and disappointment. What advice would you give to those people?
Trevor:Yeah. That's a great question, Brian. Well, first thing is the military is an amazing career to have. And I've had so many friends that started in aviation and then changed trades as they progressed through their time in the CAF or the other way around, as you know, Pat's a perfect example. It being faced with a closed trade is, is not the end state, you know, you just need to, in my opinion, consider what is important.
Trevor:You know, if your goal is to fly airplanes, be it in the military or elsewhere, then, as I've I've just spoken about, there's options out there. But if your goal is to serve our country and to be part of something bigger than yourself, then then push forward with with where you are already. Keep keep moving forward with that goal in mind. You know? If if they've gotten to the point where they've determined been determined suitable for the CAF and your preferred trade is closed, you're offered something else, then you've already surpassed the majority of your peers in showing you're motivated to to be part of the military.
Trevor:And I know that a lot of our listeners are young and, you know, I have young boys, don't necessarily know what they wanna do when they grow up. They just know they want an adventure. And I'd say that, our military is definitely full of adventures.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Trevor:And choose adventure.
Bryan:Yeah. I think that's great advice. So eventually you did manage to join, like you said, and you attended RMC. Between your second and third year, you did phase one in the Slingsby Firefly, which you finished in July 1998. How did you find your first flight training experience in the CAF?
Trevor:Yeah. Okay. So it was challenging, for sure. The the Slingsby Firefly course was still a selection as as you know, and as many listeners know. It's kind of changed now.
Trevor:But having been in cadets and obtained my, you know, my private license during that time and then my time flying in the North with a local club, that was instrumental to my success on the Slingsby. Not an easy course. And, guys I remember guys were so afraid to make errors, and the stress on guys that had never flown before was very high.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Trevor:As well, you know, during my time at RMC, before I went to my, before second or the Slingsby during the second and third year there, I had a chance to fly at the Kingston, flying club, build experience. I was grabbing anyone that knew more than me, for flying, how to how to do spins, spiral dives, whatever I thought would make me more prepared for portage. So bottom line, my first flight training at the chaff was, okay, so this is the fire hose that I've heard about.
Bryan:Yeah. And, man, we there's a reason you hear that expression so often in flight training in the military. They just throw so much at you so fast. I think that's one of the biggest skills you can have outside of, you know, initially anyways, the hands and feet, which can come with time as well, is just the ability to absorb that information and to maintain your composure almost when you're presented with this large amount of stuff to learn and sort of not hit the panic button.
Trevor:Completely agree. It's a I mean, they do a very good job at, drilling that into candidates early that, you need to learn how to prioritize. Find out what's important and what's not. Learn the important stuff first and get better at the non important stuff as you go.
Bryan:For sure. At that time, there was a program called the continuation flying training program where you were able to fly at the Kingston Flying Club during your last two years at RMC. Do you think there was much value for money in that for the CAF, and should they reinstate a similar program?
Trevor:Yeah. That was an excellent program. It gave guys the ability to keep their hand in aviation and stay connected to that world. Four years at RMC, as you know, is a long time. It's a long time between when you start first year as a recruit and join as a pilot.
Trevor:Then before you really are getting to touch an aircraft again. Now OJT in there is great and, it serves its purpose for you to get exposure to different airframes. But I think from a morale perspective alone, program should be reinstated. And in fact, what I saw was not everyone was using the hours allocated, you know, because especially at RFC, people get busy. People have lives that get in the way.
Bryan:For sure.
Trevor:And and the costs that they had budgeted for this training for, you know, all pilots that had basically finished portage and were waiting for Moose Jaw was a fraction of what actually was used. So some of us were very much enjoyed the opportunity the program presented, and and it allowed us to prepare more for for Moose Jaw.
Bryan:Yeah. And, you know, you talk we talked we sort of mentioned there, should it be reinstated? Probably a great time for, I would say, I don't know if it'd be the purview of commander two CAD, but for whoever it is who would push this idea with the government currently looking at ways to increase our spending to that, well, now 5% GDP eventually on defense spending, not a bad time to to propose this this program come back.
Trevor:Yeah. Agree. Any way any way you can keep pilots from their skills perishing while they're waiting for courses is a good program.
Bryan:Yeah. And like you said, I think the big thing, honestly, like from a practical standpoint, you can do some refresher training after a gap and you'll be okay. I think like you said, the biggest effect it has and and you don't want to understate how important this is, is morale. Like when you work so hard, you go on your phase one and you've worked your butt off and it was stressful and you made it through. And then let's say something happens and there's a big weight for moose jaw.
Bryan:That's a pretty big letdown and it can be hard to stay motivated during that. So I think you had a really important point there where you mentioned how good it was for morale.
Trevor:Yep, totally agree.
Bryan:So after some short delays in starting a master's degree, you were able to go to Moose Jaw. However, shortly into the course, there was what must have felt like a very disappointing development. Can you tell us about this?
Trevor:Yeah. So this is this is somewhat of a interesting story and and, you know, how how things work out in the end. So after graduation, you know, we were told Moose Jaw is gonna be about a year or more. So I drove out to Cold Lake OJT. I did most of my OJT in Cold Lake on the Hornet, four ten and four four one when the squadron was there.
Trevor:And then during that summer, decided I've got a whole year off, might as well go back and do my MBA, master's of business. So rented a house in Kingston with, three of my good friends, which was a good and bad, decision at the time, I'm not sure. But after the first semester of completing the MBA there, I got a call that could I be a Moose Jaw for January 1? And, I decided, yeah, let's pause the masters and I'll I'll start Moose Jaw in January 1. So I got got into the ground school phase, got right up to the IFO ground school phase, and then there was this announcement across the base that all pilots are to meet in the base auditorium.
Trevor:And this was back if you remember, many, many people will remember the bubble years as they call them when, there was students backed up in Moose Jaw due to the engine issues with Harvard. So they they called us all in, and I remember the commandant basically saying, you know, if you're on this course number forward, stay seated. If your course number was not called, leave this room and report to the Oyler. You're leaving Moose Jaw for approximately one year at least. And, he he basically was like, you can go anywhere you want as long as it has a base or you can do OGT and the plan makes sense to the Oyler room.
Trevor:So, so get out of here. Yeah. It was a shock, you know, it was like, okay, where, where am I going to go? And at the time, you know, I'd done all the Hornet OGT, as I said, but I wanted to try Tackle. I had friends in Edmonton.
Trevor:It was close to Whitehorse and my parents at the time. So I said, hey, I'd like to go to four zero eight Squadron. I also realized, you know, on my preview of what I'd seen in Moose Jaw during the IFR ground school, that my private pilot's license was not gonna cut it for the level of knowledge required. And there was a couple guys in this course or our Moose Jaw course at the start of it that, had their multi IFRS that seemed to be so far advanced in their knowledge, you know, on day one when we started IFR ground school. So, you know, I knew Moose Jaw was still a selection phase.
Trevor:I wanted to do as well as I could. So I, I started my multi IFR in Edmonton at the flying club and then, based out of 408 Flying Tachal doing OJT. I had a great boss, you know, you hear them in the military, if you don't have anything to do, don't do it here type thing.
Bryan:Yeah.
Trevor:So I I, I did a lot of flying at the Edmonton Flying Club. Got exposure on the Griffin, which was which was awesome. I very much enjoyed my time with, Taco. Nine eleven happened when I was there, and, it would only solidify what I was doing with my life. This is what I wanna do.
Trevor:My two weeks of in Northern Alberta deployed in tents did though make me realize that, I wanted multi engine.
Bryan:Yeah. That's fair. I I also did OGT with a TacHell squadron, and I thoroughly enjoyed getting to know that community and getting to go for flights on the Griffin with the doors pinned back and all that kind of stuff was really cool. But it also, I had this sort of the same realization that, you know, this is fun. I did basic land survival during that time as well.
Bryan:And I was like, you know, I always thought I really enjoyed, you know, camping, things like that, time outside. I did not love basic land survival and sort of my time in tackle made me realize like maybe multi engine's a little more my speed.
Trevor:Yeah. I I've always said that I think tachel is some of the coolest flying that you can do in our air force.
Bryan:100%.
Trevor:It just I realized it wasn't for me. Yeah. And I was fortunate that I figured that out early enough, you know, and I realized that although I loved Hornets and fast jets, that, I think multi engine was gonna be more my speed as you say. So I, you know, I went to Moose Jaw ready for what I needed to do.
Bryan:So as you said, you went back to Moose Jaw and restarted phase two. How was your second kick at the can?
Trevor:Yeah. So went back, Feb two, so it was a little bit over, you know, it was thirteen months. So the common op was pretty close to his assessment. And I was motivated now. I knew what I wanted to do.
Trevor:I had the background behind me, multi IFR.
Bryan:And for the listeners, IFR is instrument flight rules versus VFR, which is visual flight rules.
Trevor:And the moose shot is a hard course.
Bryan:Yeah.
Trevor:I mean, it's you can't underscore the difficulty and the amount of information that's pushed at you at that course. But I very much enjoyed the Harbor two. That aircraft is just so fun to fly. I'd say probably my favorite phases were the IFR phase, and the form phase at the end. Had some excellent pilots on my course.
Trevor:You know, I remember landing from flights and checking with guys how they'd done. And, the two lead pilots of Apache and Bandit, Apache lead is actually Snowbird lead right now, Brent Handy.
Bryan:Okay.
Trevor:And then the head of Bandit was Ian DeCarlo who flies for top bases in Cold Lake right now. Right. Those guys would land and they were, like, inhuman. You know? They always had snakes, as you remember, superior assessments on their flights.
Trevor:So that only increased my desire to do better, and it became, you know, a competition between the three of us in the Apache bandit Cobra flights. And then I ended up, they topped their respective flights. I topped Cobra. I finished July 2 and we were two zero one was our course number. And a funny fact is that, our course patch was a casino theme with a dice in the center roulette wheel.
Trevor:And all the patches were paid for with money, one from the Moose Jaw Casino.
Bryan:The Moose Jaw Casino.
Trevor:This was before the new casino with the spa. You know, this is the guys will remember the the shipping container casino in the parking lot, the Grumble parking lot.
Bryan:Okay. That I must have been at the new one then. That's funny.
Trevor:Yep.
Bryan:So as you said, you topped your course. You requested multi engine, which you were selected for. How did you find the phase three course differed from previous selection courses?
Trevor:Phase three, to get there and that you could immediately tell on the first day of the mood shift that this was a training course instead of a selection course. You know, the instructors, many of whom I still keep track of today or or chat with, they were they were there to train and guide and mentor and put wings on your chest, which was a different mind shift, you know. Very much enjoyed the course. Even if we still were flying ADP approaches in the mountains, which I, I do shake my head at now thinking back, you know. But, yeah, just that the the course of deploying, going on cross country's two crew environments.
Trevor:Yeah. Loved it.
Bryan:Yeah. It's a fun course. And we've kind of said this a few times on the show, but they they finally start treating you like adults. Not that you're treated poorly in previous courses, but on this course, they're like, okay. You're you're about to become a a professional pilot.
Bryan:We're gonna mentor you and shape you into that professional pilot. So like you said, it's just a little different from the previous courses.
Trevor:Yeah. Totally agree.
Bryan:Yeah. So you were selected Auroras on the West Coast. Was this what you wanted and why?
Trevor:So on the course, we had, one Herc slot, one West Coast Aurora, and the rest were East Coast Aurora slots. And I had selected Auroras on the West Coast. I was excited to get Comox. I mean, you know, having come from the West Coast, having lived in the mountains, I was looking forward to to getting back and and doing that again. Little did I know, though, the moat was so backed up that I'd spent spent a whole year pretty much waiting in Comox to get on the moat.
Trevor:Yeah. Meanwhile, my buddy who went on Herx was loaded almost immediately and was done as o to you before I was even before I was even, flying. But, you know, I did a lot of I did a lot of gravity sports as I call them. Flew a lot on the Aurora, sitting on the the radar rack there, watching guys. Actually, it was funny.
Trevor:It was only it was after only about a year that an old FE took a paper clip and showed me how you could put it on the radar rack and it would float midair
Bryan:when
Trevor:the radar was on. Yeah. I wish I had known that before I sat there before I sat there for a whole year. Went back to Portage actually in December, to do my ticket because, of course, my ticket was gonna expire. I've been sitting for so long and then, started Mote in March '4.
Bryan:And how how was Mote for you? I know we were trained by some of the same people such as the legendary Paul Terpy and Al Eau Claire. I imagine you probably knew Mary Cameron Kelly as well who has recently had a fair bit of press.
Trevor:Yeah. What an amazing person.
Bryan:Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Trevor:She's great. Yeah. I never actually personally flew with her. She might actually been on her exchange when I was through there.
Bryan:On the Nimrod?
Trevor:Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. I think she was like was a short lived exchange, I believe, though, because I think they they canceled their Nimrod program as she was there, if I recall.
Trevor:Yeah. Paul Turfie, one of the most patient men you'll ever meet.
Bryan:Oh, yeah.
Trevor:Of course, Al Eau Claire is bigger than life.
Bryan:Yep. Yeah. He's still a sim instructor. Well, he was when I left anyway, still a sim instructor.
Trevor:Yeah. What an amazing aircraft. They I mean, you flew it actually, I could still recognize those engines anywhere I go even I see the aircraft. Yeah. You know, sometimes we get them down here in Curacao.
Trevor:And the start of your podcast, the Aurora start sequence is awesome, by the way.
Bryan:Yeah. I that's kind of a little nod to my flying heritage. So for listeners, this is kind of a little Easter egg, but the checklist you hear at the beginning of the of every episode is the Aurora start sequence, and that is an Aurora starting up. And the flyby now the flyby is technically a Herc, but the Herc has the same engines as the Aurora, and that was the only sound effect I could get. But that was kind of that was kind of the little Easter egg that we put in there.
Bryan:And the second Easter egg is since I created the show while we're here in Portage Prairie, the runway that that gets cleared for takeoff is the runway that you train on in multi in Portage La Prairie.
Trevor:Oh, that's cool. Now, well, we always say that the Hurt guys have the engines mounted the wrong way anyway.
Bryan:That's right. There's our upside down.
Trevor:Yeah. The moke course, it it was a challenging course. It was long as Pat had mentioned. I actually remember a conversation, in Moose Jaw before I went with, Jeremy Hansen, our astronaut who was on a course ahead of me at Moose Jaw. We're sitting there in the mess on a Friday with a beard, discussing OTUs and difficulty levels, you know.
Trevor:I remember talking about how the Hornet OTU was so difficult. And I still remember him saying that the Aurora Mo was not too far behind.
Bryan:Yeah. I've heard that as well.
Trevor:Yeah. That stuck in my head. So when I went to Greenwood, I studied, studied very hard. Of course, coming from Comox, I was living in the barracks. So I had a very good friend of mine, Paul, Gilbert Peig.
Trevor:Oh, yeah. Who was, of course you know Paul, probably. Yep. He was, of course, made of mine, and and he was living in Greenwood with his family. So luckily, I could carpool to work with him.
Trevor:And and that, that was a huge morale boost to have him to be able to go downtown. You know? Yeah. So we I finished moat in July '4, and then, you know, the speed that things happen by by the July 29. So seven days later, was in Comox doing my unit checkout with the c o four zero seven.
Trevor:It's crazy.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. It's wild how fast things go sometimes. Okay guys, that is going to wrap up part one of our chat. Thank you so much for sharing some of those stories of your early days.
Bryan:I'm really looking forward to our next chat when we get into the work you're doing now. So thank you both for being here today and I'm looking forward to the next one.
Trevor:Thanks for having us, Brian. Yeah. Thanks very much.
Bryan:Okay. That wraps up part one of our chat with Pat and Trevor. For our next episode, tune in next week as we continue our chat with some of the operational experiences they had, and then we'll get into what they're doing now with Powell Aerospace and the Dutch Caribbean coast guard for search and rescue and counter narcotics. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.
Pat:Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.
