Episode 69: The Rescue: Air Tindi crash survivors in the NWT – Conducting a CC-130H Hercules rescue, Part 1 – Jason Shaw & Vincent C-Benoit
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today are two special guests, captain Jason Shaw and sergeant Vince C. Benoit, both of four three five Transport and Rescue Squadron in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Bryan:Jason is a pilot on the CC one thirty eight Hercules, and Vince is a search and rescue technician or Sartech. Guys, welcome to the show, and thanks so much for being here.
Vincent:Thanks for having us.
Jason:Yep. Thanks for having us.
Bryan:So today, we're going to talk about their careers and the training they've been through. And then in the second half of the interview, we'll be talking about a rescue the two of them and crew took part in just over a year ago in December 2023 when an Air Tindi flight crashed in the Northwest Territories. But before we jump into any of that, let's go through their bios. Jason joined the military in 2002 as a land communication and information systems technician or LCIS tech, which was an army NCM trade. He was posted to Petawawa until 2010, and during that time, he deployed to Bosnia and Afghanistan.
Bryan:In 02/2010, he was accepted in the university training plan for noncommissioned members or UTP NCM as a pilot, and he went to the Royal Military College in Kingston to get his degree. Towards the end of that program, he was accepted on a scholarship program and obtained his master's degree in physics. In 2016, he was posted to Moose Jaw and completed phase two on the CT 156 Harvard. The following year, he began phase three on the C-90B King Air in Portage La Prairie and ultimately received his wings in 2018. That same year, he was posted to four thirty five Transport and Rescue Squadron in Winnipeg to fly the CC-130H Hercules.
Bryan:In 02/2019, he completed his course at the CC one thirty eight operational training unit or OTU in Trenton to become an operational SAR first officer. He upgraded to SAR aircraft commander in 2022 and since then has worked in a variety of training and standards roles at four thirty five Squadron. Vince joined the infantry reserve at 2006 at the age of 16, driven by a desire to serve in Afghanistan during the height of the global war on terrorism. In the 2007, he was posted to second Vanduz regimen in Balcarce, and he deployed to Kandahar in 2009 as an infantryman. While overseas, one of his key responsibilities was tactical combat casualty care or TCCC, which provided him with his first exposure to patient care in a combat environment.
Bryan:Following his deployment, he pursued a role in sniper platoon where he served for six years and completed multiple advanced qualifications including reconnaissance sniper, advanced mountain instructor, helicopter insertion instructor, and airborne round and square parachute qualifications. In 2015, while instructing on the advanced mountain operator or AMO course, he executed a highly technical mountain rescue of a fellow instructor. This event was a pivotal moment in his career inspiring him to transition to search and rescue. He was selected for SAR training in the 2016 and attended SAR Tech course 50 graduating in 02/2017. He was subsequently posted to four two four squadron in Trenton where he progressed to team leader and standards positions.
Bryan:During his time there, he participated in numerous missions utilizing the CH one forty six Griffin and the CC one thirty eight Hercules. In July 2021, he was posted to four thirty five squadron initially serving as currently holding the position of deputy Sartech leader or DSTL. The year 2023 was particularly significant in his career as he led multiple high impact missions including three operational jumps, two in response to plane crashes, and a night water jump for a critically injured patient. So, guys, thank you both for your service in Afghanistan. I have a ton of respect for anyone who served in Afghanistan, especially you guys on the ground.
Bryan:That must have been a crazy experience, so thank you both. So, Jason, you joined the CAF as an LCIS tech. What inspired you to join the military?
Bryan:And just before we answer that, for the listeners, LCIS tech is land communications and information systems tech. It's one of the older signals trades in the army that were eventually amalgamated under a trade.
Jason:Yeah. I think I kind of got interested in the military towards the tail end of high school. Wasn't quite sure what trade I wanted to do. Even went in to talk to a recruiter a little bit and still wasn't really sure. So I ended up going to college after high school.
Jason:I took a electronics engineering diploma in college. And even during that time, towards the tail end of that program, as my friends in the program were, they were starting to look for jobs in the industry. I just The desire to go in the military stuck with me. At the same time too, nineeleven happened during my third year in college. So I definitely changed just the whole kind of culture that was going on at the time.
Jason:So yeah, decided right then to make a career out of it.
Bryan:And how do you feel your experience as an LCIS tech influences your perspectives as a pilot?
Jason:I wouldn't say it was my experience as an actual My actual trade, but I think being an NCM before I was an officer helped me out a little bit. Especially as I got further along and we upgraded, Just enabled me to kind of see it from both perspectives, relate to the different crew members, NCMs and officers. Probably helped me out a little bit that way.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of times I hear that people who are started as an NCM make some of the best officers just because they have that perspective and they've had that experience of what it's like to be an NCM and kind of see the the good sides and the bad sides of different leaders.
Jason:Yeah. Pilots in particular through the training system, don't really see NCMs very much like it's Mhmm. You're on a course with a bunch of other pilots and you get all the way through the OTU and eventually at your operational squadron, which that's kind of the first time you're actually going to be working on a daily basis with NCM. Yeah. Yeah.
Jason:I know just for me having that experience prior to that probably made it a little bit easier to relate to everyone in the squadron.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. The techs and the other members of the crew and
Jason:all that. Yeah. Sure.
Bryan:Yeah. Vince, you joined as infantry in the years following nine eleven. What was it like to be in the combat arms in those days?
Vincent:It was a different time for sure. Back then, everybody was focused on on a mission. Everybody at that point wanted to deploy and that was kinda everybody was driven by it. I joined at 16. That's what I wanted to do.
Vincent:And that kind of carried over until we we got out of there at 2011, I believe Canadians got out there. I'm not quite sure what the date. It was nice because everybody had a common goal at that time. Yeah.
Bryan:How did your experience in the infantry shape how you conduct yourself as a Sartech?
Vincent:Yeah. I gained a lot through the infantry, especially leadership wise, and that's helping me now as as a a Sartech leader, as a team lead in the plane. Also being able, we'll talk about later, talk about more sniper stuff, but working in small teams and be highly relied upon by the chain of command and being able to take decision on the fly and stay calm in chaotic situation, that helped me as a sarcophagus for sure.
Bryan:Yeah. That makes sense. And in my experience, like the guys and girls I worked with who were army first, like the leadership piece is such a strong there's such strong emphasis on leadership within the army. I always found that they made, like, really, really strong leaders and had had very like how can I put this? Like in the air crew world, you don't get a ton of leadership training.
Bryan:Right? So hopefully you're a good leader. Hopefully you've had good mentorship. But people who come from the army, like they know leadership. They know the principles of leadership and they know exactly how to be a good leader.
Vincent:Yeah. I agree with that. And I wanted to add that to what Jay mentioned. I think he's too humble to say it, but I think his background helped him as an aircraft commander because he's got as a star pilot, he's gotta manage not only the plane, but he's gotta manage all the crew and the decision making. So for I I think that definitely helped him, become a better leader in the planet and have a direct impact on the mission.
Bryan:So Jason, during your time in the army, you deployed to Bosnia and Afghanistan. What were those experiences like?
Jason:Yeah. Were both quite a bit different from each other. Like Bosnia was the In 02/2004, it was the tail end of kind of large scale Canadian involvement in Bosnia. I think I was in the last full rotation to I was in Velika, Kladucha at the time, which was kind of the northern area of Bosnia. Not a lot going at the time.
Jason:I was in a support role as well. But I got a chance to see a part of the world that I never would have went to on my own and work with a really good group of people as well. I went to Afghanistan in 02/2006 and it would have been prior to when Vince went. It was during a transitional time. We were moving from the Northern part of Afghanistan up in Kabul.
Jason:So that was the first few months I was there. And we're basically taking the entire Canadian footprint and moving it down to Kandahar where RC South would eventually The rotation following ours is what most Canadians would kind of remember as the large scale Canadian combat operations in Afghanistan. So the last couple of months was It was really just about building up the camp and the infrastructure for follow on battle group from one PPCLI that came in after us. But both experiences were really good. Enjoyed them both.
Bryan:What were those early days in Afghanistan like? Was there like a ton of fighting yet or how did that look?
Jason:Well, for us, no. It was the rotation after mine in the 2006 that that stuff really kicked off. But it was kind of strange and we were in Kaf, which is Kandar Airfield. Was the largest basin in Afghanistan at the time. And when the Canadian Canadians went down there, we just had this large area of the camp which was gravel.
Jason:But at the same time, different areas of the camp. There was like Pizza Hut and Burger King and that kind of thing. So it was kind of a weird experience being there when we didn't really have anything but other areas of the camp did. Yeah. We we really focused on the last couple of months.
Jason:We were there just doing everything we could to set the next rotation up for success.
Bryan:Yeah. Did you have any intense experiences in either place?
Jason:Not really a lot. No. Bosnia, like I said, it was the tail end of what was going on there. Yep. In Afghanistan, a lot of the focus was setting up for the following rotations.
Jason:Yeah. Which would Like I said, that was the large scale combat operations that probably most Canadians are familiar with for Afghanistan.
Bryan:What was your role exactly as an LCIS tech?
Jason:So an LCIS tech, it's a technician. The trades even changed now, as a technician with the army, within the army signals.
Vincent:Okay.
Jason:So for the most part, I've fixed and repaired army tactical communications gear. So all the stuff that you would see in army vehicles, all the radios and the kind of equipment they had in there, we would work on. We'd fix the stuff that the infantry guys would be carrying as comms gear. We would be fixing that kind of stuff too. Okay.
Jason:That's mostly what I did. The trade did a lot more than that as far as networks and beyond line of sight communication stuff. But I mostly focus on like tactical communications.
Bryan:Okay. So almost kind of like the army's version of like an avionics tech?
Jason:Yeah. That's That'd the closest comparison. Yep. For sure.
Bryan:Vince, in Afghanistan, one of your responsibilities was tactical combat casualty care. Has caring for the wounded and injured always been something you were interested in or was this just assigned to you?
Vincent:To be honest, it was initially just assigned to me. I just raised my hand for something else that I I didn't really know what I was getting into. Turns out, let's say, after my first experience overseas, I was hooked.
Bryan:Yeah. What was your first mass casualty event in Afghanistan like? And did you feel prepared by your training?
Vincent:I was really prepared. And and that's that's what I wanna I wanna talk about that for for a little bit is it really that day really drove my training vision. For now, it's been close to eighteen years that I've been serving. That specific moment really, really set my vision for training. And so what happened is we were two days or three days into tour.
Vincent:I did not have all my my gear yet. My gear did not arrive from Canada yet. And we left for that that operation. We would go and take a village that's called Mooshan there in Kantar. It was a big operation.
Vincent:Anyways, conduct the operation and then we came back. And then one of the, leopard tank got was stepped on an IED and three Canadian members were in it. And then we did exactly what we were supposed to, treated them. But I remember having that clear thought. And I still remember to this day and still drives me.
Vincent:I was 19 years old overseas, and I remember looking at that person that I was treating. He was a fellow Canadian. I remember thinking, wow, this is exactly as it was trained for. That person right now is, of course, suffering. But I detach myself from that because I was pre exposed to that stress and that person acted.
Vincent:That person wasn't acting, but he was exactly the same as actors on the courses I received. So I was pretty exposed to that stress already, and we'll talk about it later into into training stuff for Sara. But I still remember that clearly like it was yesterday. And then we took those that's kind of the first layer of this story. And then we took those wounded and brought them to Wheatfield.
Vincent:I still remember like it was yesterday. It was a Wheatfield. I was on my knees. I remember having wheat up to my chest and those two US Blackhawk came. One was orbiting and shooting, the other one came came hot and landed in the wheat in front of us, and there's two pjs that step out
Bryan:of it. And the pj is a a para jumper. Right?
Vincent:That's correct. That's kind of the tactical version of a Sartech, but for for US For combat. Yeah. And I remember looking at those guys in awe. Like, okay, those guys are freaking heroes.
Vincent:Mhmm. I wanna be that person. And I I still have a picture. I'll send it to you of that exact moment that's engraved into my brain. And that's what kind of drove me towards SAR because there's the closest thing we can we can do in Canada from from PJ.
Vincent:So anyway, it was a good experience. Had many more casualties and mascots across during that tour that we can talk can do an entire podcast on that. But that first exposure to it, it was a positive experience for me and I'm carrying that right now.
Bryan:Oh, that's amazing. That sounds like such a crazy intense experience to go through. And, yeah, the PJs, they're they're wild. When I was in Kuwait, we did a tour of their facility, the whole rescue facility. We saw the Hercs they had ready to go with all their gear.
Bryan:All the PJs are like eight feet tall and made of muscle. And like you said, they're they look like heroes. It's it's pretty comforting to know they're around when you're out flying your missions and stuff.
Vincent:Yeah. For sure.
Bryan:So, Jason, you decided to make the move from the Army to the RCAF. What started your passion for aviation and what made you try to pursue that within the RCAF?
Jason:Well, it started when I was a young kid. Maybe not the typical story, but I remember, you know, being 10, 11 years old playing flight simulator on my parents' computer. It was back in the days when you had just like a computer room. And yeah. That's that's really all I had access to though.
Jason:Like, didn't there wasn't the opportunity to actually pursue flying like in in aircraft where I was where I was from. So I just kind of had that interest and it just it just stayed with me. Didn't have the opportunity when I first got in the military to be a pilot. So I just kind of kind of kept it alive and, you know, few years later, that opportunity would come up again and I took advantage of it.
Bryan:How did that opportunity come up? What's the story there?
Jason:Well, that's through the UTP NCM program. So it's an in service selection program for NCMs to become officers. In that particular program, I think it's still it's open to all officer MOCs. So I waited, you know, to a point in my career where I thought I'd be like a decent candidate for that program. I'd done a couple deployments by that time with some courses and stuff and did aircrew selection as part of the application for that program and ultimately got accepted to be a pilot through UTPNCM.
Bryan:Okay. Just out of curiosity, the aircrew selection that you did, was that still the one where you went and sat in the simulator or was it the newer one?
Jason:Yeah. Think I was so when I did it was that was called CAPS and it was the little simulators. There's one on the museum in Trenton. But at the same time, that was a part of the course that counted for our selection. If I remember, it was maybe three sessions in those simulators and then like the test day.
Jason:But at the same time, we were doing the the tests that I think they do now. And if I remember, they were just kind of trying to evaluate both at the same time.
Bryan:Okay. So you were kind of like a hybrid course?
Jason:Yeah. Maybe it was the CAPS stuff that actually counted for us. But we were at the same time doing the it was like computer based testing if I remember.
Bryan:Okay. You decided to pursue further education and get a master's degree at RMC. What made you want to do that instead of pursuing flight training as quickly as possible?
Jason:Yeah. So at the time, as part of UTPNCM, I was doing my bachelor's degree at RMC. And during my third year, think I found out about a program. It was called Postgraduate on Scholarship. And the program, I'm not sure if it's changed.
Jason:It was open to any DO or ROTP cadets that were still doing their undergraduate degree and then you could apply and you basically just continue on right into doing your master's. So I had done well enough academically during my undergraduate degree that I thought I'd be, again, like a decent enough candidate to apply. So it was really about opportunity. I was already in like academic mindset. It's kind of hard to go get out of that and go back into it, especially to start a master's.
Jason:I was in Kingston. I was going to continue on in Kingston. Yeah. Yeah. So I applied in my third year and got selected from one of the spots.
Jason:So it just ended up being a six year block of university for me instead of four.
Bryan:Yeah. And I think you're totally right. Especially as air crew, you get out of that academic mode, you get into the operational world. It's really, really tough to find the time and space. There are people who do it obviously.
Bryan:I don't know how they manage to do it. Some people do it concurrently like while still flying. I can definitely see the value in doing it first and then just moving on with your flight training.
Jason:Yeah. And I remember when I I started my masters, a couple of guys from the Air Force came back and who had been flying for a few years and it was just difficult for them to get back into it. They had to take even a couple maybe preparatory courses to get the math skills back up. So I was really Just to be able to continue right on in that same mode, probably a lot easier.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. How do you feel that further education and experience has helped you as a pilot?
Jason:I wouldn't say I've taken anything from, you know, a direct one for one transfer that I did during any, university course. Just, I had spent that long learning how to become a good learner, I would say. How to manage my time, study habits. So study like learning when you're doing flying training, it's quite a bit different than post secondary courses. But the same some of the same stuff applies like managing your time, just getting in study habits.
Jason:That's really what I was able to take to it.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. All right. So what we're going to do here is we're going to talk a little bit about Jason's training and then we're going to swing around and talk with Vince about some of his training as a Sartech. So Jason, how did phase one flight training go for you on the G120A Grobe?
Jason:Yeah. Did phase one on the Grobe after my fourth year and before I started my master's. So I think the buildup to phase one at the time, I was really looking forward to it but also really nervous about it. Yeah. Because spent four years kind of watching other guys go and you hear it's this course, you have to pass it if you're going be a pilot.
Jason:So kind of spent almost four years getting really nervous about it. Every summer guys would come back and we'd hear who passed and who failed and how hard the course was. But when you get there, it's just a flying course. It's on I think it's whatever it was at the time, twenty some hours. I started in May, I was done by late July.
Jason:No real hiccups or anything. I had previously went and got maybe eight or nine hours just on a Cessna at the Kingston Flying Club to help me prepare. Probably didn't even matter. So really that course was my first time really flying under like a proper Like a structured course.
Bryan:Yeah.
Jason:Ultimately successful in that one and then went back for two more years to finish off university stuff.
Bryan:Yeah. It's funny. I'm sure So I bypassed phase one. I'm sure though I would have been quite nervous for it if I had gone for it because I always had the same kind of thoughts in mind. Like, oh, this is a selection course.
Bryan:It's make or break. But more and more, the more I talk to especially as I've done this podcast and talked to instructors and stuff, it's more and more like it's not as much anymore about weeding people out because we trust that our aircrew selection is largely doing that. It's really about trying to get as many people who are capable of passing of to pass.
Jason:Yeah. I've heard that too that I don't know if that's their official stance. Like, it's a transition from a selection thing to what you said. But, yeah, I was definitely nervous about it. When you look back on phase one after you're an operational pilot, it's just like a like a blip almost.
Jason:You don't even Yeah. Really remember it that much.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. For phase two, you got to fly on the CT one fifty six Harvard two. How was that experience for you and did you have any big challenges?
Jason:Yep. Phase two was good. It's as everyone knows, it's really that core course for pilots that most of the skills you learn in phase two I still use today and you just apply further on. I started the flying phase in phase two in January. So there's just there were some challenges there with the weather.
Jason:Yeah. For the most part, made it through a couple hiccups with some tests and stuff. I think it actually benefited me in the end. I learned to manage stress a little bit better and to really not make things bigger than they actually were. So I finished phase two later on in 2017 And then spent a couple months there working as a scheduler before going to phase three.
Bryan:Okay. So like time for a short break before you went on phase three but not too long?
Jason:Yeah. A couple months. Couple months working as a scheduler. Guess it's an interesting story. It was at the end of phase two, selected to be a rotary pilot to be a helicopter pilot.
Bryan:Okay.
Jason:So I was like thinking, okay. Like, that's what I was going do. When I when I first applied to be a pilot, I made the decision I was going to be happy with whatever I got. That's where I was coming from my former trade. So I was just embraced that.
Jason:And then something came up with a multi course. I think they were like four candidates short or something like that. They ended up putting on a course later that year. And it was really a matter of right place, right time. Was working as a scheduler in Bandit Flight and Moose Jaw and got asked if I wanted to do If I could leave in a week to do multi instead of of helo.
Jason:So I did that. So it's it's kind of one of those forks in your life that you never know how it's going to work out.
Bryan:So was that when they offered you the chance to do multi, did you take that because you wanted multi or because yeah?
Jason:Yeah. Like I said, would be happy with anything, I wanted multi. I started flying training wanting multi right from the time I was in in phase one.
Bryan:Okay. That's that's really cool that that happens.
Jason:Yeah. Worked out. Yeah.
Bryan:So you found out you're going multi, you go to phase three. And by that point, most people are usually in a groove when it comes to flight training. Did you find there any new big challenges on phase three?
Jason:Yeah. I generally agree with that. It's it's it's kind of for for pilots the first exposure to the crude environment. Just you and another pilot basically at that point. I really enjoyed that and it started to feel probably like multi was was a really good choice because I did enjoy the the crude environment.
Jason:And it's also the first time away from the portage of the moose Jaw bubble. I really liked We had cross country. So it was before COVID. So we were really able to go out and I think the Canadian one we went to as far out as Tofino, Columbus and Calgary, we managed to get all the way out there. And then the US One down to Minneapolis and Denver.
Jason:So yeah, I left phase three like feeling confident like I got everything out of the course that I wanted to.
Bryan:Yeah. Phase three is a fun course. If you can shrug off the stress and just enjoy it for what it is, like you're going to some cool places, you're flying a pretty fun little plane, like it's a good course. So you finished phase three and were selected to fly the CC one thirty eight Hercules for search and rescue. Was that what you wanted and how did you feel?
Jason:So when I finished phase three at the time, I don't know if it's still the same when you left, you got to fill out your list of I think you give your list of three aircraft that you wanted to fly and then your list of three locations you wanted. And they would try to kind of mesh those together and get you something you wanted. So Winnipeg and the H model Herc was not on either of those lists for You know, but I've heard people say, well, you don't really know what you want. And it was actually true for me. So I put all the new air mobility stuff in Trenton.
Jason:That's what I thought I wanted to do. Probably the best thing that ever happened is I ended up in Winnipeg flying the H model. It worked out really well. I love what I'm doing now. So that's what I'd say to anyone kind of listening if you don't feel too heartbroken if you don't get exactly what you think you want because it might work out in the end.
Bryan:Yeah. I've heard that so many times from various guests who have unexpected twists and turns in their career. Nine times out of 10, it seems to me that it ends up being even better than what they had planned.
Jason:Yeah. Most guys like their first squadron no matter what it is. Yeah. It's just your first exposure being operational and you're just gonna embrace it.
Bryan:Yeah. It's exciting and it's like a special time in a pilot's life and in any air crew's life to get to that first squadron and be part of the unit. What are the big skills a SAR pilot needs to learn to prepare for conducting rescues when they're on the operational training unit or OTU?
Jason:The OTU I'd say the majority of the focus on the OTU is learning to fly the Herx. So building a base level of proficiency and a base level of knowledge about the aircraft and all the procedures. Towards the end of it, it's almost more of an exposure to the Herc in the SAR role. It really starts we really start building like a pilot up to be an aircraft commander once they start at the at the actual squadron. So, yeah, the OT is just those core core flying skills with the HERC and exposure to beyond that.
Bryan:So most of the focus is basically teaching you to be a safe and effective first officer to fly the plane well and to be a safe pilot with the aircraft and then more of the tactics of SAR come on the unit?
Jason:Well, towards the end of the OTU, there's a SAR phase and there's kind of a strat phase too. So there's a bit of a SAR deploy. But again, looking back on that from when you actually started the squadron, really does seem like almost like you get maybe a couple flights of each type of, SAR mission we would do. Mhmm. And you really start building up that experience once you really started the squadron.
Bryan:You said like the types of SAR flights you would do. Can you give me an example of those?
Jason:Yeah. Just to summarize, day, land, like marine and night. That's If you could kind of take all that we do, you could almost group them into those three three kind of areas.
Bryan:Okay. You have now upgraded to star aircraft commander. How does the responsibility change moving into the commander role?
Jason:Yeah. I I kind of walk you through it from the time you get to the squadron. So I've told a couple of the pilots in my job now that everything you do is kind of getting due to your first day at the squadron and that's the first day you're actually really employed as a pilot. And so it takes about two two to three years to upgrade a SAR first officer to an AC. The focus at first is, again, building up more proficiency with the aircraft and expanding all that knowledge that they need.
Jason:The second part is kind of expanding out into the different positions, what the Sartecs are doing, what the flight engineer is doing, what the rest of your crew is doing. In the third phase, we move into what we call acting AC. So the last six months, maybe a little bit longer, the FOB in the aircraft commander role under the guidance of an instructor pilot learning to do the job as an AC. And I remember for myself, like after I finished that and upgraded, it's really good training. Like you really feel ready kind of compared to maybe your first solo in the Harvard or something like that.
Jason:It's a lot different though. I remember feeling like signing up the plane for my first time and going on my first mission or whatever like or even my first training day. There's a lot more responsibility but it was built up over the course of a few years and I actually felt ready. You look back and like, Oh yeah, there's no IP there at this time. But for the most part, you've built up enough experience to kind of baseline of being a safe and effective AC when you finish the training.
Bryan:So you felt well prepared by the time you got there?
Jason:I did. I remember my first few few nights being on Slash, kind of looking at my phone and maybe hoping it wouldn't ring.
Bryan:Can you say what Slash is?
Jason:Okay. Yeah. Slash is basically just our night shift. Okay. Yeah.
Jason:We can know a couple of your questions later talk about the our posture we have. But I remember early on like that phone rings and you never know what's going to be on the other end. And somewhere inside you're like, you feel confident you can probably deal with everything, but you don't necessarily know right?
Bryan:Because
Jason:you haven't had to do it by yourself. So it was that experience builds and you started learning as an AC, a lot more comfortable. But I remember that first few months just being like, I'm pretty sure I can do anything that's going to be tasked to me, but you know, you don't 100% know yet either.
Bryan:Yeah. I guess in the SAAR world, like, you really never know what's going be on the other end of that phone call.
Jason:Well, the other end of phone call for us is, you know, well now it's the Far West Coast Of BC, the North Pole, and the Great Lakes. Yeah. So it could be anything in that whole area, anytime of day you're on suit. To answer the phone and like you instantly have to be able to kind of put your brain where where that tasking is and adapt. You're used to it
Bryan:though. Yeah. Which is like a massive range of like types of terrain and
Jason:Yep.
Bryan:Even like the dangers of like mountainous terrain or various things.
Jason:You know, all in one, like in the summer or let's say it's the fall, it could be winter somewhere where you're going, summer somewhere else, mountains, water Yep. Day, night.
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Bryan:So, Vince, we mentioned this in your bio, but when and why did you decide you would try to become a Sartech?
Vincent:That's another story for an entire podcast too. I'll try to make it short. So I was a mountain operation instructor in the army. So what that entails is you you're an instructor for well, back then there's three different courses we were teaching, basic mountain ops at the unit level and then complex terrain instructor course and advanced mountain operator course. Some of them were taught Alt West.
Vincent:So I was I think I believe it was in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. I was teaching out west in in the Rockies, an advanced mountain operator course. And to keep it short, what we're teaching on those courses are climbing skills and all the rescue system and all to move troops through complex terrain at the army level. You're teaching students all week climbing in complex skills and on the weekend you go out, you you pair up pair up with an instructor and you go rick your routes that you're gonna bring the the student next the week after. So it was a weekend.
Vincent:Good friend of mine, and and fellow instructor, we'll call him Ben. Actually, It's his last name is Benoit like me. People think we're cousin. I got along with him very well. So we are out doing a recce on a Cascade Mountain.
Vincent:It's just outside of Banff. If you're on Main Street Of Banff and you're looking out at the mountains, that the big big one right there.
Bryan:Oh, wow.
Vincent:So we're we're climbing. It's on the Sunday. We're five pitch up. So five pitch a pitch would be on that specific mountain would be a 30 meter length of rope. And you alternate pitch as you climb, you put removable protection.
Vincent:We're about five pitch up and we skip a pitch. I just don't wanna bring it too technical. But the short story is he was a stronger climber than than me. And one of his one of the the rock he was holding ripped off the wall. And he tumbled down about 70 feet.
Vincent:And the removable protection I'm talking about, they just ripped off the rock. So I never really arrested his fall with my rope because we're always connected with a rope. So anyways, pretty complex rescue scenario at that point. I had to do exactly what I was teaching the students the week prior and I did the rescue. When I showed up to him, he's a good friend of mine.
Vincent:He's semi conscious, helmet's cracked, he's got broken leg, his clothing looked like he was attacked by a tiger. That's how much the rock ripped everything he was wearing. So we're in a pretty We're five feet pit shops. We were halfway up the mountain, we can't climb up. So I had to do a rescue system to take him, to bring him down on my own all the way to the parking lot.
Vincent:Reflected a lot after that incident. I reflected a lot about the way I reacted, the way I conducted medical part in the system. And I just wanted to be better at it. Did it. Everybody was happy.
Vincent:You would talk to Ben. He's still very happy with the outcome of this, but I wanted to be the best at it starting at that point. Again, that's how I conduct myself now and the vision I have for training and the way I train, my fellow Sartex. There's there's point like that in my career that kinda that that still drives me to this day. That was a big turning point.
Vincent:And because of that, I I decided to go Sartre.
Bryan:So this is like a big pivotal moment for you, the same as that mass casualty event in Afghanistan was?
Vincent:Yeah. I would say so. Very much so.
Bryan:So before you were a Sartech, you trained as a sniper. As part of that, you gained many qualifications including reconnaissance sniper, airborne mountain instructor, helicopter insertion instructor, and airborne round and square parachute qualifications. What is similar and what is different between that world and being a Sartech, and what qualities do you think helped you succeed in both?
Vincent:Well, the major difference is now I train to save people. Mhmm. It was the opposite before.
Bryan:Of course.
Vincent:So different mindset, but a lot of skills that are related. If I dissect a sniper, we're working teams of two and four. So I'm used to work in small team environment. I was a corporal back then, and I would have a direct line with the CEO briefing him on on his attack, on his battalion size attack with plus support. I would a corporal would brief him.
Vincent:Picture three companies plus altar re support plus tank support plus CAS.
Bryan:Okay. Well
Vincent:So there's a lot relying on a corporal that's telling him what's on the ground because the corporal has been looking at that target for four days. So that was that was good. To go back to your question, what skills? Well, as a sniper, you're you're very advanced in navigation and survival because you're in pretty difficult environment all the time because you get inserted on your own days in advance and you just freeze. You freeze.
Vincent:There's nothing there's nothing sexy about it. It's it's very tough, very difficult. So, you gain a lot of resilience.
Bryan:I was going to say it sounds like something where a lot of mental resilience would be essential.
Vincent:For sure. And we'll go back. We're here to talk about that mission, of course. So we'll talk about it. But yeah, small team, resilience, and I would say, being relied upon was major thing I learned as as a sniper.
Vincent:And then, of course, mountain instructor stuff. I'm I'm program that the army run is awesome. It makes me a better product as a SAR tech right now because I can teach all the SAR techs about complex rigging and rope. That's easy for me. Helicopter insertion while I was at many hours on the Griffin before even transitioning to SARA.
Vincent:So doing rappel fast roll, helo cast, I was very comfortable with that already. So that was that was a plus for me. When it comes to the airborne stuff, I was never posted to airborne companies, so I can't speak for that. I was I just did the courses to give me more to add more to my curriculum as a sniper. But it was a good exposure for for sure before before going to SAR.
Vincent:I knew I could do it. Mhmm.
Bryan:So there's a fair bit of overlap in the the skills and like the hard skills and the end purpose is opposite, but a lot of the skills overlap.
Vincent:Yeah. For
Bryan:sure. Yeah. What's the significance of the round and square parachute qualifications?
Vincent:That's a tough one to answer. Like I said, I was never in a a airborne company, so I never really employed it, at the tactical level, which is it's kind of a rite of passage on on the army side. That that course has been run. If you if you go back to World War two, I would say that course is pretty similar than the way they run it back then. It's significant because people are proud of of doing it.
Vincent:It's it's a tough course, and people are proud of going through it.
Bryan:But what is the difference between a round and a square parachute qualification?
Vincent:Okay. You're asking about the difference. Yeah. Okay. So a round parachute, it's a 35 feet round parachute and you go straight down.
Vincent:You can't really control it. They tell you that you can, but let's be honest, you don't control it much.
Bryan:The
Vincent:Square enables you the way Army or Soft would use it. You can insert the free fall or static line. Free fall will be you deploy on your own. Static line would be it deploys as you get out of the plane. You can use it at very high altitude and, and fly it to where to your insertion point, or you can insert a very low level like Sardew and then, get to your target.
Bryan:Okay. Can you tell us about your experience at selection, and how did it compare to your previous sniper training experience?
Vincent:That's another turning point in my career selection. Yeah. What I told you about the mindset of saving people versus doing the opposite. My mindset really switched one AD on selection. I went there with a bit of an army mentality and the staff just really changed it for me.
Vincent:I'll give you an example. You you do an army, course or selection for a course. It almost feel like they're badge protecting or they're there to hurt people. I know that's not their goal, but it's tough and it was a hard mentality. Now going to SAR selection, the staff would care for us.
Vincent:They would tell us, just be honest with us. We'll fix you up so you can continue. So the staff would come at night and look at our feet and fix us. And that really changed it for me. I was like, oh, do you really want us here?
Vincent:So that was a turning point in mentality going from Army to Air Force. And then what did the selection look like? It's changed every year. But basically, your selection is about two weeks Start in Edmonton, where you do a bunch of physical tests. And there's classes where the they teach you stuff.
Vincent:And then the second part, go into Jarvis Lake, which is this Saratec camp and where you run similar to aircrew land survival course. So it is a course now I don't want to speak into specific. I don't exactly know I'm not at the school. I've never been in the school. But if I keep it broad, they teach you something and they expect you to do it.
Vincent:And I really had a hard time with that. I kind of second guess like, why am I here right now? They teach me to split wood. While I was raised on the farm, I split a lot of wood. You don't need to teach me that.
Vincent:But they want this teach you to split wood. They want you to do exactly as they taught you. Well, later on the course, they teach you how to pack a parachute once and that's the first parachute you jump.
Bryan:Wow.
Vincent:So it's very well run and it also brings the level equal for everybody. So you have a Navy personnel that come in, never wear snowshoes on. Well, they teach you how to wear snowshoes, and they expect you to do it the same way as they taught you. So selection was a good experience for me. I learned and I liked it.
Vincent:Coming from an army background gives us an advantage for sure in regards to carrying heavy load in navigation and, and survival. But like I said, they teach you everything during selection.
Bryan:Can you tell us what happens after you make it through selection as a star tech? What training is required before you're qualified?
Vincent:After selection, you go through Air Crew Medical, and then you get you go on course if you pass the Air Crew Medical.
Bryan:On the Sartech course?
Vincent:On the Sartech course, and that's running Comox. The course is a year long. You start with medicine at start because we're all PCP paramedics, primary care paramedic. That was the hardest part for me coming from an army background to now doing a paramedic course. Once you complete this, you go into every phases.
Vincent:So diving, the dive is taught by the Navy down in Victoria. You go into your sea survival, Arctic survival, Ruiit, that's the overturning helicopter in the water, followed by paraphase, mountain phase, that's summer and winter, and then final ups, where everything kind of comes together medicine into complex jump mountain scenario. You complete that, you go on grad and you get posted to unit.
Bryan:Man, it sounds like a crazy and very difficult experience.
Vincent:I would say there's some people that There's not a single candidate that's strong across the board. Everybody's got a phase that they struggle with. But you're with such a tight team that everybody helps each other to go through it. I'll give you an example. I had a hard time with medicine initially, then there was a medic on the course that just helped me go through it.
Vincent:Especially with coming in with a big language barrier, as you can see, it was it was harder for me, but I got through it. And and the staff are there to help you to succeed.
Bryan:Awesome. So on top of the training to get ready to be a SR tech, you folks have a ton of annual training to maintain. Can you tell us about some of that?
Vincent:Yeah. That's same as the pilot. We were chasing currencies. Mhmm. We just had different stuff on top.
Vincent:So there's the day to day flying currency. So we need to do static line jump a free fall jump every quarter. We also need to do night jump and a water jump and confine area. That's kind of the flying day to day. And on the rotary wing, we have to do clearance calling as well.
Vincent:Clearance calling is to call it a helicopter into, to land into a very tight confine area. And on top of that, we need to do our diving currencies. There's six dive at a minimum, six dive every six months, which is quite challenging here in Winnipeg when it's minus 30. So we go down south in the winter for that. We also need to do a Mountain X every year to stay proficient mountain and a Parasat every year to stay proficient with parachuting.
Vincent:What's Parasat? It's a parachute saturation training. Normally, you do a minimum of 15, I believe. But we normally do two dozen jump over like a week. Okay.
Vincent:Just to get saturated because managing all those currency I mentioned plus the flying, it's hard to get, We can't ask for six jump in a day when you're working because all the other air crew in the plane, need to change the currency. So we don't prioritize jumping on the day to day. If we can get one or two, it's nice. You don't picture it as takeoff and landing. If you do multiple in a day, you'll get better and you can correct your mistake.
Vincent:And that's why we go out to normally civilian drop zone and conduct those type of training so we can get, more proficient.
Bryan:Okay. Of all those requirements, what's your favorite and what's your least favorite and why?
Vincent:I would say I like them all.
Bryan:Oh, yeah? Yeah. It's not one that you're like, just oh, I gotta do that today.
Vincent:Well, you know, initially I said I struggle with medicine. Right? Yeah. So initially, I I didn't like doing medicine. But as I kinda push myself to go outside my comfort zone, I actually really enjoy it.
Vincent:Another example of that is a currency I didn't mention was we need to do four hospital shifts every year. So here in Winnipeg, we're fortunate we do it at HSC downtown. So we go work with the nurses, we see trauma patient and we're part of the team downtown at HSC. Not a lot of people can do that. So I really enjoy that.
Vincent:Of course, I enjoy being in the mountain. I enjoy diving down Key West. I enjoy parachuting in Hilo, Arizona. Love all of it.
Bryan:Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean and and I guess I should have expected that because I don't think I ever met a star tech who didn't love their job. So
Vincent:Yeah. And another thing, on that is, you know, I just mentioned, oh, we're to Key West. We're going to, in the mountains in Banff. A lot of people thinks where it's it's like a it's it's a Gucci training. But I tell you when I'm there with with with my my boys and girls, it's sunrise to sunset training.
Vincent:Mhmm. Because we're saturating and it's it's we're not there to party. We're there to train art and And that's a new generation right now. People that are there, they just want to be the best at it. And again, that's the vision I had since two days into Afghanistan is let's pre expose them to hard training.
Vincent:So when big mission happen, they're already exposed to that stress.
Bryan:How does a Sartech find out where their first posting will be? For pilots, I know that's a big deal. Is that like an exciting time for Sartex?
Vincent:Yeah. It's pretty exciting. Normally your own course, and the course NCO gives you gives the course senior numbers. There's two guys for Trenton, two members in Greenwood, and so on. And normally, the course find a solution because the course in CEO says, if you don't find a solution, we'll find one for you.
Vincent:I rarely heard of conflicts happening where it didn't work. Winnipeg, for some reason, is a hard posting to fill. I don't know. Well, I guess I know why I didn't want to come here because there's no helicopters. But I love I love my posting here.
Vincent:I'm about to go in Trenton in the spring, but I've been here for four years soon and I loved it. I love Winnipeg. It's a good shot.
Bryan:Yeah. Winnipeg in general is a nice nice spot. It's I think it's a lot nicer than people give it credit for.
Vincent:I think I think people are afraid of the city and the bad reputation the city brings, but Manitoba, like, around around Winnipeg is is awesome, and people are are are very nice and friendly around here.
Bryan:I agree.
Vincent:We loved it here.
Bryan:What's it like to go from training to the operational world? Did you feel prepared?
Vincent:It's that was a bit of a shock because, like I said, you're you're you just finished your year long course. Now you got your very bright orange suit. You're very proud of it. You show up to the unit ready to do the job. And someone like me will tell you, okay, pump the brake.
Vincent:You're still at the school training for at least six months. And they're like, what? Now you need same as a pilot. You need to learn the airframe. And for some unit, there's two airframe to learn.
Vincent:So that can take up to a year to get finally on the schedule on your own as a team member. And then when you think you got it figured out, you're a team member, you got to go up to team lead and you're not qualified until you're team leads. Same as a pilot, pilot is not fully qualified until reach AC. It's the same training establishment. It takes four to five years to become a team lead.
Vincent:So you're constantly learning. And once you're a team lead, you're still learning.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's that's the same in in the aviation world in general. Right? Like, never stop learning.
Bryan:You're never you're never suddenly an expert and now I know it all and and I can stop learning. Like, I'm sure Jason can agree with that from the pilot side.
Jason:Yeah. I've always found like really for the pilots, like their first flight at the squadron, it's taken them years to get there. You know, aircrew selection phase one, two, three. But like that's your actual first day of the job. And then you're not even qualified to really do the job as an AC for like years later.
Jason:And then even your first day as an AC, you're just qualified to like take a sign off the plane to take you on a mission.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of funny. Like you go through all this work, you've been training for years, you get your trade qualification and you're like, yes. Like, I did it.
Bryan:I know what I'm doing. Like, I'm I'm qualified. And then you get to the unit and and you're like, oh, I'm just a baby. Like, there's so much more to learn still.
Vincent:There's there's something we do here at the unit and I I wanna keep it a bit of a secret. But basically, when the newer team members show up, we give them a good reality check where he's doing something medical, for example. Of course it will be tough because you haven't touched medical in a while, got posted and then he's doing medical with me as a team lead. But I reassure them and I tell them, you know what? That's the worst you're going to ever be.
Vincent:It's right now. It's today because we'll bring you up to become the best team lead. When RTMs, restricted team members, show up to the unit after course, we right away start to teach them to become team leads. We don't teach them to become team members.
Jason:And it's the same thing for the pilots. First officer, it's a it's a temporary position. Yep. We don't have first officers as a it's like throughout the air force, right? Like there's no career first officer.
Jason:It's it's the start of the course from the first flight out of the squadron.
Bryan:So you've kind of talked us through the upgrade process just now. How would you say responsibility changes as you move into the role of team lead?
Vincent:Yeah. In the plane, it makes a big difference. To start, I'll start on the plane and then on the ground. On the plane, the team members got less responsibility because he's less involved in mission planning. Although we always talk to them and ask their advice and everybody in the plane, loadmaster, flight engineer, the navigator.
Vincent:When Jay and I are flying together, it's not our plan, it's not Jay's plan, it's as a group and everybody's got their say. So, they have a big responsibility, but the team lead is very involved in mission planning with the AC, is very involved into the decision making of how we're gonna conduct the mission. Of course, it's always the aircraft commander who's got the last say of go go, no go. I kind of have to sell my plan to Jay before we get into it. So a bit more mission planning and also teammates got a lot of weight on the shoulder when it comes to risk assessment.
Vincent:We'll touch on that on the mission. Sure. A lot more weight because at the end of the day, I have my team members to take care of. And then once we're on the ground, the team members got also a lot of medical responsibilities because the team lead will be very busy with mission planning, talking to the aircraft, talking to GRCC, which is the Joint Rescue Coordination Center. We call them directly.
Vincent:We talk to physician directly or medical director here at OneCAD if we need help on the ground. So it's as a team leader, you're more involved into the bigger picture.
Bryan:You're saying, like, when you're on the ground during a rescue?
Vincent:That's correct.
Bryan:Yeah.
Vincent:Yeah. And the team member will be more involved into hands on medical skill. We always see the team members there to make the team lead look good in the plane or outside the plane.
Bryan:So, Jason, you've been involved in several successful rescues other than the one we're going to discuss later on. Can you tell us a bit about those?
Jason:Yeah, sure. I think the one I'll talk about is the Kishkatina Lake one. And Vince was on it as well.
Bryan:So
Jason:about three months before the Air Tindi rescue, an area south of Kenora, a fly in only fishing camp was it? Yeah. Yeah. A fly in only fishing camp. So it was in September.
Jason:I got the call at 1AM. That's how they usually task us. We can talk about that more too. Like they call it AC and then give me the details. So tasking was pretty simple.
Jason:There was a patient medical distress. They didn't have a evac form until the next morning. So they wanted us to go there, deploy our Sartex and they would take care of them until the evacuation the next morning. So I had a lot of the same kind of It was kind of like a building block mission that we used for the Air Tindi rescue. So flew there at night, quick short forty minute flight, which was a lot different than the Air Tindi mission.
Jason:Just quick. We use a lot of the same techniques that we use to get the Sartex on the ground at night. So use the same type of jumps under flare. In this case, they actually landed in the water close to the camp. Once they were out, we were dropping them bundles as well, which was similar to the Airtandy mission.
Jason:And then they ultimately stayed with the patient all night. We orbited overhead until a plane could come in the next morning, I think from Kenora and bring them back up to Kenora. The biggest thing was like the crew though too. Like myself and Vince were on that mission. It was the same load master and the same flight engineer that was on the Air Tindi mission.
Bryan:Okay.
Jason:Just just by circumstance, just by scheduling. Mhmm. So it really felt like having worked with him on a mission like that, that was almost something we kind of could build on for a more complex, more dynamic mission that would come a few months later.
Bryan:Yeah. Was going to ask like what did you learn from conducting this mission that helped you moving forward with the Air Tindi mission? But it sounds like partly you guys almost had like a rehearsal
Jason:A little bit.
Bryan:Yeah. Under sounds like slightly easier circumstances.
Jason:From the pilot's side, I mean, they had additional complications with the water part of it. Mhmm. But from us, yeah, everything was just weather was better, it was closer. I think the winds were a little more complicated as far as flying some of the patterns. But yeah, it was definitely Calling it like a dress rehearsal building block kind of thing was It's a good way to put it.
Bryan:How was that for you guys once you got on the ground or I guess into the water?
Vincent:That specific mission, was challenging on the medical side, that one. And I'm not gonna talk about specific details for that. For sure. Well, guess for this one was as soon as we leave the plane, we don't know how we're going to get back. That's the thing with Winnipeg.
Vincent:So we don't have yellow to support us. So you get out, you don't know how long and you don't know what you're going to get into. This one was special in my mind because we had flow plane extraction. Oh. So it's always a different way to get out of those missions.
Vincent:Like the three missions that's the three jumps that summer was different extraction platform, to load a critical patient into the back of a Cessna one seventy two when you're getting promise a beaver. Yeah. Kinda brings a bit of a challenge.
Bryan:Yeah. A bit of a different size.
Vincent:When you gotta fold the seat and kinda shove that person in the back, not ideal, but you have to get people out. Yep. Yep. So you can't You need to improvise. That was a big lesson learned for me is you you gotta improvise and and then make decision on the fly.
Bryan:Okay. So, Vince, you've also rescued people from crashed aircraft before the Air Tindi crash. Can you tell us a story about one of those experiences?
Vincent:Yeah. Plane crash are are unfortunately, it's not always positive outcome. But there are some that people survive incredible crash and you just don't understand how they walk out of it. Same summer twenty twenty three, had a floorplane crash just north of just east of Lake Winnipeg in the bush. That was my first ops jump as a team leader with a brand new guy.
Vincent:No, that was a second op jump, but still it was not super experienced. And then it was a twenty minute flight from Winnipeg. It was very short. Everything was really on the ground. We did we did that in two pass.
Vincent:First pass, we dropped a smoke. Second pass, we did a confined jump at 2,000 feet because we know that we had confirmation that the plane just there was a survivor. So we got it there quick. And then stars came and pick us up after we, stabilized the patient. We were, back in Winnipeg for dinner.
Vincent:Yeah, that doesn't happen often here in Winnipeg. That's a good outcome. Still talk to that pilot, that survivor. You'll see later. I just tend to leave them my number if they want to reach back.
Vincent:Because it's a bit of a traumatic experience for both, for the survivor and for us. Don't have patients like that every day. That's a story we always remember. Yes, still talk to him to this day. Great guy.
Bryan:That's awesome.
Vincent:Just unfortunate. Yeah. Well, fortunate. He survived.
Bryan:Unfortunate that he had to crash.
Vincent:That he crashed.
Jason:Yeah. I remember I wasn't I wasn't flying that day, but I was just at the hangar at work and pretty sure we saw the helicopter come back with our Sartex before our own our own Herc even got back.
Bryan:Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, that must be rare.
Vincent:That's, yeah. That's that's another long story for another podcast. But basically what happened is that plane crashed. He had all the bells and whistles. He he built his own flow plane with glass cockpit four zero six.
Vincent:Which is a rescue beacon. That's right. He had he had he's flying with the helicopter helmet on. He was flying with the survival vest and he had a radio on plus a spot beacon. And he was going from The States all the way up to Fort Smith.
Vincent:And then mechanical problem happened and then he had to force land into rock, basically bush and rock. What's it called? Canadian Shield. And then he broadcast May Day a floor plan in the area, which end up it's Paul. He's an old military pilot flying Sea Kings now for stars, now flying for a flying school near Winnipeg.
Vincent:So anyway, he heard the May Day and then he he was circling the plane as we came in. And he was he called RCC directly to get us there. We executed the mission jump. And then stars, of course, didn't have any any room in their small helicopter to pick us up. Well, Paul landed his float plane, grab a civilian helicopter, and came back to pick us up.
Vincent:Stars took off, and Paul landed. We jump jumped in, and he landed us right on the ramp in front of the Angry Door and came for a coffee
Bryan:with us.
Vincent:That's amazing. That guy's amazing.
Bryan:Wow. What did you learn from that mission that helps you with the Air Tindi crash?
Vincent:Again, scene management comes. This one was very dynamic. It was quick. Also risk assessment to pick up the landing area for us. We did it very quick.
Vincent:Hindsight, I wish I had asked for a second pass. I told you I was very proud to do it in two pass. Hindsight may be taking more time, which we use that during the Air Tindi. And, yeah, communication.
Bryan:Okay. So as we wrap up, we're going to ask you a few questions that we always ask our guests. What is the biggest thing each of you do to stay ready to do your job?
Jason:I think it's just preparation. A lot of the basic stuff we learn throughout flying training, trying to make sure I'm physically, mentally ready to fly whenever I'm on any type of posture. Anytime we can be expect to put in like an eighteen hour crew day. So whether that starts at two in the morning or nine in the morning. So you have to be in some kind of space where you're able to able to do that.
Jason:And other than that, it's routine. From when I first started flying training until now, I look at the weather the same way. I kind of am able to go through all the weather and the NOTAMs and stuff for our entire AOR and get a good picture of what's going on. Just gets you ahead. So when you get tasked and they say, oh, there's a plane crash or wherever.
Jason:You know, I might not know the exact ceilings in that location, but I've looked at the weather in the last few hours and like, yeah, that's where it's bad weather up there. I know what's going be a concern again. I already feel like I'm ahead of the tasking. So that routine. Like even if I'm on standby in the weekend or something, it's not like I'm sitting there for hours and hours looking at the weather.
Jason:But get up in the morning, have my coffee, go through my We have our iPads we use for flight. I'll take ten minutes, get all the packages I need on my iPad and go through the entire AOR and make sure I'm just prepared for whatever comes. It's probably the daily routine. Do the same thing every day the same way every day and just becomes second nature.
Bryan:What about you, Vince?
Vincent:Well, couple of things. First, all of us stay very fit physically. That helps with what you need to do on the ground but also for fatigue. The other thing is, again, the way I train people around me and myself. I want to make sure I'm ready for every single scenario.
Vincent:And the last thing I would say, it sounds a bit cheesy, but I visualize a lot of things. I try to forecast as many scenario as possible and take them through, especially before I'm about to jump into something like that.
Jason:Yeah. I would actually add to that. That was my The Airtendi mission was my first plane crash in the Arctic. But it wasn't the first time I'd thought about that. And a lot of times you just kind of look at almost an area on the map and be like, how would I handle that?
Jason:How would we get there? What kind of fuel do we take? What's around there for airports? And I'm sure you kind of do the same thing maybe. How would you handle that situation on the ground weather?
Jason:So a lot of the places we go, although it's the first time that specific scenario we got into, we've either talked about it or on our own, we've just kind of walked through how we would handle that.
Vincent:That's good training you can do without burning any fuel.
Jason:Yeah. Yep. On a ground train, they will get a couple pilots, Sartex, pick a point on a map and just plane crash there. What do we do? And we just walk through everything from from our end, how much fuel we want, Sartex, what kind of gear they'd want.
Jason:You just can talk through a whole mission. Takes a couple hours if you really go through it. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. We used to do sort of similar stuff with the Aurora, called a tabletop Yeah. Tabletop exercise. And you just walk your way through and for us in any submarine scenario or what have you. And it is it's very valuable.
Bryan:So I don't think it's cheesy at all. The visualization or walking through rehearsal, that kind of stuff, those are all keys to success that you'll hear from special forces people, advanced pilots. And I think I think a lot of successful people in dynamic trades use that stuff.
Jason:And you throw a you throw a problem in, you know. Okay. We got our whole plan. What if that happened right there?
Bryan:Contingency planning. Yep. Yep. So, Jason, what do you think makes a great SAR pilot?
Jason:Yes. A SAR pilot in particular. It starts from that base level proficiency with aircraft, procedural knowledge, aircraft knowledge, all all that stuff. That's gonna be common for any type of pilot, I'd say. Something particular for SAR pilots.
Jason:I mean, add like flexibility. Vince and I were talking about this little runway here. Almost every mission or even training day we do, like something happens that changes. Like nothing ever goes to plan. A lot of the times we'll have a good plan, we're going to go do something.
Jason:Then some small detail changes. Maybe the weather's different. Maybe there's some other asset out there that we didn't know about. Maybe it's something with our own aircraft. And it makes it so that whole plan you just spent like half an hour working through, it's just completely invalid now.
Jason:You got to pivot a whole new whole new thing you're going do. And then maybe something changes again and you have to pivot back. So it's just not being a rigid thinker and just being flexible, being able to adapt to many changes during the course of admission. Think that's key.
Bryan:Okay. Vince, what do you think makes a great Sartech?
Vincent:I would say someone that can stay calm under pressure. Picture yourself at the as the aircraft commander, and you have a team lead in the back seat that you don't see what's going on back there. And he's trying to tell you that it is safe to jump with two new guys at night in an arctic blizzard. You need a guy that's pretty calm and collected to sell you that plan for you to sign off on it. So that goes in the plane and on the ground, I would say, yeah, being calm in chaos.
Bryan:Was that for a good STAR pilot or a good STAR tech?
Vincent:Both. Both. Imagine, as the aircraft commander, if you start freaking out because you don't like it, people in the back seat will not like it. I assure you that. So I know when Jay and I are flying together, it's always a calm conversation, but it's not our only ideas.
Vincent:We kind of think out loud, as the crew around us because a lot of people have experience and have good ideas. And then for me on the ground or in the back, especially for Jake, being able to make a decision and live with
Jason:it. Because
Vincent:we look at all the facets of the mission. Okay, this is what we're going to do. Let's execute now after we discuss it. Yeah. Sometimes a good
Jason:thing on missions is usually it's the AC and the team lead for the most part that are coming up with the bulk of the plan. But everyone contributes. And sometimes what I'll do is I think we got a pretty good plan and how how we want to attack something. I'll just if you just throw the question out there, hey, does anyone have any other ideas? And you just leave it open like that.
Jason:You'd be surprised it could be someone on the crew that you wouldn't even think they'll come up with something that's really, really good. So just create that environment. It works really well.
Bryan:Yeah. And you never know. You mentioned people have different backgrounds. Like you never know, like, oh, this guy might have a degree or diploma or something and something that you don't even know about that's somehow adjacent to the task you're doing or they may have some training in something that you didn't know they had or whatever. And before you know it, like, they've come up with a great idea.
Jason:Yeah. We did a mission up north in our a couple last last fall. It was the same kind of thing. Like our Turns out our flight engineer was like from that area. Yeah.
Jason:And he never He didn't really say much. Then next thing you know, he's just throwing up this local knowledge about that area and it's like, Wow, it's really good.
Bryan:Yeah, it's useful. What advice would each of you give to a new member of your trade in the SAR community?
Vincent:Sometimes it's better not say a thing and keep your ears open. Keep your mouth shut and listen.
Bryan:What about you, Jay?
Jason:Yeah. I would say just for upgrading, it's really the product of probably hundreds of daily efforts. You got to be doing something every day just to get a little bit better. You can't let weeks get away from you where you didn't accomplish something in either getting better flying, You got to be putting those daily efforts in. It all adds up if you do that.
Bryan:Yeah, absolutely. I had someone tell me once like, even if you put in like two hours a day
Jason:Yep. Just get better at something.
Bryan:Be eight hours a day destroying yourself in the books. But you put in a couple solid hours a day of learning and you're gonna be by the time it's time to upgrade, you're gonna be ready.
Jason:Yeah. Like, some of our guys who show up to work, if you're not on the schedule that day and you're not busy, you know, why not grab someone else and go down to the plane? Why not go just find a random star tech and see if they can talk to you about some gear? There's always something you can do to just get a little bit better.
Bryan:Yeah. Absolutely. Okay, guys. That's going do it for part one of this chat. I'm really looking forward to the next one where we'll talk about the Air Tindi rescue.
Bryan:Jason and Vince, thanks for being here today and I'm looking forward to the next one.
Bryan:Okay. That wraps up our chat with Jason and Vince about their time in the training system as well as some of their operational experiences. For our next episode, tune in as we discuss the Air Tindi crash and rescue on 12/27/2023. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.
