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Bryan: 00:58

Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is my comrade from the phase two Harvard course in Moose Jaw, major Brian Humza Kilroy, a CF eighteen Hornet pilot as well as current senior national representative for Canada and qualified instructor on the t three forty six at the International Flight Training School in Italy. Brian, thank you once again for being on the show.

Bryan: 01:26

It is great to catch up with you and I'm happy you're here today.

Brian: 01:29

Thanks for having me.

Bryan: 01:31

Listeners can check out part one to hear about Brian's early flying days, his time in training on the Hornet as well as some of his operational and exercise experiences. And for today, we'll be focusing on his time as an instructor as well as the lift program in Italy. So one of the many qualifications you got during your time on the c f 18 Hornet was four ship lead. Can you tell our listeners what that is and why it's significant?

Brian: 01:57

Yeah. We've already talked about some of the other upgrades that I had gone through along the way. And then After getting complete on four ten and doing the combat ready upgrade on squadron, this entire time, are what we call a wingman or a number two, a dash two in the formation. Element is a two ship. That is your basic formation.

Brian: 02:22

No one else goes out there alone, kind of like the army would talk about a fire team buddy. You operate everything basically as a two ship throughout. So your initial upgrades, everything you've done in your training up to that point is that number two role in the formation. Once you've done that, though, you've started to build some experience on Squadron. You've seen a little bit of time.

Brian: 02:46

You start to understand all the capabilities of the the Hornet. Now you start to move over into that lead position. That's your two ship upgrade. And you start to operate in that bigger formation, which is called a section. So, you know, there's two two ships in there.

Brian: 03:00

There's make up that section, and that four ship now is your basic sort of fighting formation that you would operate in any sort of wartime environment. So you have your number one position, your lead. That is really in control of the entire force ship. Number two is wingman position. Number three being another lead, but they're not in charge of the whole formation.

Brian: 03:27

They're just in charge of their element. And number four being that other element. So as you start to go up in complexity, you need more experience in the aircraft, and then you can start doing the upgrade. And again, it's the same same upgrade essentially that you would have seen previously. But now for the two ship, you'll still focus on some of those basic fundamentals.

Brian: 03:52

But you're operating less so in the 1v1 environment because that doesn't take a lead and a wingman role. Now you're starting to talk about, in that two v one and into the BVR where you're having everything as a two ship or more. And again, that's the same with the four ship, which is what you're ultimately striving for as a lead role, is to be able to take a force ship, and now you can actually break down some of your tactics. You don't just have a single aircraft that has, you know, its weapons it can employ. Now you have three other aircraft that you're gonna be essentially in control of and communicate your intentions.

Brian: 04:31

Make a plan how you're gonna do this air to air scenario. So if you have, for example, four red air and four blue air, what kind of tactics can you do? If it is a single 1v1, then you will only be able to point at them, fire missiles, turn around. But now, with multiple aircraft, you can have different stages, either employing supporting missiles to impact, they can be assessing, trying to gain ground, or turning around to try and flow away from the fight. So you can have a very dynamic scenario, which is what you are going to try and use to keep control of your area of operation.

Brian: 05:08

You are not just going to focus solely on just your aircraft. You have to think bigger picture now. How do I fit into this whole scenario? You start to try and think more in the bigger tactical picture as opposed to what your jet is doing in this very moment. You have to think about what is everyone else's jet doing.

Brian: 05:32

And then you start to look at, you know, that I mentioned later or previously, the, mission commander that you see at the, like, maple flag or red flag. They're taking those four ship elements and trying to cover off the entire scenario. So, you have to know what the bigger picture is, what they're looking for your ultimate goals are, and how are you gonna execute that. And that is really what it breaks down to. A lot of people that play DCS probably start to experiment with some of those tactics that, you know, we can't get into all the details on, but that's essentially what we're trying to do.

Bryan: 06:08

Okay. Well, it sounds like that could get pretty overwhelming pretty quickly. Like, did you find that was a pretty intense upgrade to go through?

Brian: 06:17

Yeah. You are definitely because at that point, you are a bit more experienced, so you are a bit more comfortable with your own jet. But now, it is trying to do those same things, employ the same missiles, maneuver the same, but while keeping track of everyone else. It definitely quickly gets overwhelming at times. It always comes back to lesson learned.

Brian: 06:42

If you are against red team on the other side there, trying and you're trying to protect, you know, say, Cold Lake, it's a defensive, counter air scenario. So you have a line that you're trying to let no strikers past because that means they have got bombs on target. There's air to air threats. You you start to maybe lose track of one of the strikers that's down low because you you've been focused up high, and then you're trying to get everyone's SA back on that, you know, with help from GCI.

Bryan: 07:14

And for the listeners, GCI is ground control intercept.

Brian: 07:18

Or you don't quite have the SA, of where your formation is and someone goes too close to the red air before turning around and takes a missile, simulated missile, of course. We chalk that up to a one blue death in that scenario, which is maybe a bit gruesome, but that's how you got to train. And then you go back to the debrief and say, Okay, we lost one or two members of our formation. How did that happen? What can we do better?

Brian: 07:48

Someone flew without SA, within range of the enemy's missiles, and why didn't they have the SA to realize they were that close before turning around? Ultimately, is back to you as the lead. You had control of your foreship. They should be aware, but if you told them to commit downrange and then they lost SA and you didn't have that sense that things were starting to break down and just tell everyone to turn cold and fly away from the threat, then maybe that is a lesson for you as well. Wow.

Brian: 08:23

And then, with the Force ship, it also involves some of the basic domestics, transiting to and from the base on the way to the area with your three other members on your wing. Just being a little bit more conscientious of how you are maneuvering the aircraft. Now you have essentially a much less maneuverable aircraft. If you're not predictable, then that's going to make it very difficult or unsafe for the other members.

Bryan: 08:51

Right. So that's basically kind of planning around formation flying and just like the fact that as a force ship, you're much less maneuverable than just you and your own jet being able to turn as you as you wish.

Brian: 09:03

Yeah. Exactly. And you have to focus on what the mission is of the day. Like, you know, if our objective is to as offensive counter air, we have to cover some strike package that's going in. We are doing an air to air role, for example.

Brian: 09:23

So, you're very focused on that. So, you'll have to have everyone on the same level and that's where all the training comes from. We're not going to talk about more than ten minutes in the brief. We're not going to talk about all the details of formation flying, what we're doing today. Just expect everyone to know.

Brian: 09:42

There's weather. We're going to briefly touch on that, but we're not going to go into it's not going to be a full brief on what kind of approaches we're doing, how we're getting to and from the airspace. It's just got to be ten, fifteen minutes at most for those basics. Not necessarily that it's basic, but just for those items that you just need to be able to get to the area of operation so you can do the mission. It It ends up being quite a bit to think about if there is bad weather days with a four ship and you have a new wingman that is not combat ready upgrades.

Brian: 10:21

You are trying to balance everything and then still get the entire brief for the mission.

Bryan: 10:25

Yeah. It sounds like a lot to think about. You were also a qualified electronic warfare instructor. And in 02/2017, you were posted to four ten tactical fighter operational training squadron in Cold Lake. There, using your combat and operational experience, you began training the next generation of CF eighteen pilots.

Bryan: 10:43

What was it like to shift from an operator mindset and into a mentorship role for young pilots?

Brian: 10:49

It was an interesting shift. I definitely found so On the squadron, as you get into the more lead role in terms of the formations, you are element or section lead, you are starting to mentor to the younger guys, teach them as they are coming through the squadron. But it's, again, as we mentioned before, it's a little bit different of a dynamic than when you get to four where it's a purely, you know, we've got students, we've got to get through the training, and they don't have any background. Whereas the guys on squadron at least have all the background of 04:10 by the time they get there, and you're building upon that. So it was it was quite a different shift in mentality where now you have to go teach from the basics.

Brian: 11:31

How do you take off and land with the Hornet? It was exciting. There's something something special about being to go being able to take someone for their very first flight in the Hornet and watch, you know, the nerves and everything, but also just them coming down afterwards with a bit of a like, oh, I did terrible, but I enjoyed it. It's like, you didn't do terrible. It's your first time.

Brian: 11:56

And just really see that, but just the kind of, oh, wow, moment they get after the flight and how much they realize they have to go. So that was definitely really exciting. The training, you go through a whole upgrade. Everything's an upgrade in

Bryan: 12:16

the course. But

Brian: 12:17

go through a whole upgrade to be able to teach so you're not going in cold. You're you're well prepared by the time you get instructing the students. But it is a different kind of training because previously to that, on Squadron, you were always instructing from the other jet. They were in control of their own jet. You would give tips over the radio, and most of the learning came in the debrief and points would be in the brief.

Brian: 12:43

So now it was a whole different type of teaching because you couldn't Now you're in the cockpit with them, the same type of training tandem style we had seen throughout our piloting career. But there were also other opportunities to make mistakes as an instructor. So it was that whole learning of the right keywords at the right moments can really help someone. If you step in, if you point their attention to one thing, then their focus will be there and they might miss something else. So you have to be very careful about what you are referencing, what you are talking about, and not talking too much.

Brian: 13:25

Is the thing you are noticing something minor? Can it wait? If so, just keep your mouth shut. If it is something big, then maybe you have to jump in and take over the jet. So it was definitely And that's something that is hard to also just learn through the training because instructors playing students aren't making the same type of mistakes that students necessarily make, or it's a little bit more obvious, where sometimes you can have a student sort of insidiously lose their essay.

Brian: 13:56

And you have to be aware when they're starting to max out that they may not speak up, that they've reached that point where they're no longer paying attention to another aircraft. They're supposed to be visual on the lead aircraft, but they're so focused in on their radar screen or their targeting pod that they're now starting to drift towards the other aircraft. So you have to be, you know, monitoring what they're doing as well as trying to keep, you know, an eye out for safety overall. But it definitely provides a learning that I hadn't really experienced before when you're teaching. Because on Squadron, it was pretty easy to point to errors or reference the publications on where they should go and try and build more information.

Brian: 14:51

But when you're trying to explain something from scratch, your level of knowledge needs to be higher for that. So I think that's where I started to even just something as simple as the one v one BFM maneuvering, it's one thing to go out and be able to do it confidently. But it's another. You can't just tell other student, Just don't lose. That's not a valid teaching technique.

Brian: 15:22

To be able to pull out, Okay, what am I actually doing at each point in this maneuver to accomplish that goal? So I found it challenging at the beginning, teaching some of those basics because I hadn't been asked to verbalize exactly what do you do at this exact moment, at this exact time, to quite the same level that you need to with students that are just fresh off of a previous phase of flying. They think can't stay ahead of the jet, but you can see that they're slowly building their bucket. If you misspeak, it's also very noticeable because they will do what you said even if you said it incorrectly. And then you're like, well, that was I was too vague in that explanation, and now they aren't executing properly.

Brian: 16:12

I need to take that on board and try and refine how I'm teaching. And that was kind of an iterative process that went through. And that's also why you have different experience levels of instructors, is because then you can get that feedback from the more senior instructors on how your instructional story for the student was. So it's continually learning. It's nice with four ten, you go through a course at a time, there's some overlap, But you see them go from that first mission where they felt so behind the jet, they thought they did awful and you're like, no, no, you're doing good.

Brian: 16:49

You're exactly where you should be at this phase. By the end of it, you know, they don't even think about the basics, you know, to and from. And they're just focused on that, those mission objectives on each sortie. And then coming away from that, seeing how far they progressed and then they graduate and, you know, you get to send them out to the squadrons and just see them now out and progressing with their career. Was a really fulfilling role as an instructor there.

Brian: 17:20

The other nice thing about being at four ten was I was also now a little bit later in my fighter career. And those early on experiences on squadron, being able to go on exercise, traveling to Romania, going to Alaska, going in the QRA for shift work. Now, was also at a point in my life where I was starting to look to have a family and a little bit more predictability, which was also really nice because you're Monday to Friday as opposed to you know, you have a Saturday evening shift in the queue or I'm gonna be gone for two months on an operation. Yeah. Or we're going we would just do deployments with the squadron, but we knew when they were coming and it wasn't it was a little bit more stable of a lifestyle as well, which was nice as a change for the family.

Bryan: 18:09

Yeah. A lot of people there's a lot of people out there who just wanna stay operational and they they kind of dread going to a school in some capacity, whether that's Portage or Moose Jaw or four ten. But it does provide that stability. It does provide a little bit of predictability, and it's a lot easier on the families.

Brian: 18:27

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And we would still, you know, try and do some work with the squadrons, but we were a little bit disconnected because they are focused more on their mission sets upgrades. On one hand, are honing your skills by having to teach them, But on the other hand, being away from the operational squadron, you are not necessarily on the latest cutting edge of what everyone is doing for tactics.

Brian: 18:56

Not that it changes drastically on the Hornet and you are trying to teach at 04:10 what is being used on the squadron. But you can't just teach the most advanced things at the training unit. It is a little bit more of a non basic version, but isn't the most complicated tactics we have. So you refine your abilities in some ways, but it also you can get a little bit rusty on the training squadron as well in other ways. So it's a it's a trade off, but it's worth it for anyone, to have that experience.

Brian: 19:37

Yeah. Because you don't want to, you don't wanna just stay operational your entire career without having seen a little bit of the the other side of it.

Bryan: 19:46

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So in 02/2019, you were selected as the c f eighteen demonstration pilot. How does one get selected for this role?

Brian: 19:56

So there's when it's coming up for, you know, the previous year, they they ask who's interested. You can put your hand up, say, I'd like to try out for this. You have to write a letter explaining your reasons, what you would like to do. And then they evaluate based on your qualifications because you you want someone a little more senior in the jet because it is some more advanced not advanced, but potentially more dangerous flying and an ability to able to go out, put on a safe show, but an interesting show. And then there is a whole other piece that they want to make sure you're prepared to really do the bigger part of the job, which is, you know, after your fifteen minutes of show is now engaging with the public.

Brian: 20:48

Yeah. So that's also really the the more time consuming part of that role, not necessarily the harder part. I think it's, you know, equally as interesting, just a very time consuming part because you wanna be available just as there was someone when I was a young kid and saw a CF 18 doing a demonstration, I wanted to be the one there inspiring that next, next pilot along the line that can fly some future jet. So that's a big part of that. So when they're coming looking at the selection for that, they just were making sure it was a good fit.

Bryan: 21:27

Okay. What was it like to be the Hornet demo pilot? And can you give us some of the highlights of that experience?

Brian: 21:34

For the actual flying, it was some of the coolest flying. It's not operational flying. It's the opposite of operational flying. So it's not satisfying in the same way of executing a good mission, but it's satisfying in that, you know, the crowd enjoyed it. And it's just no other times do you get to fly that kind of routine.

Brian: 21:59

So we train to fly low level. That's one of the skill sets that any fighter pilot should have because you may find yourself whether you had to defensively react to some airborne threat or if there's a surface to air missile, you end up in a low level environment. But once you're down there, you're looking to, you know, egress from the situation safely or potentially, you know, depending on the tactics, you're you're ingressing and egressing at low level. But what you're not doing is a loop in front of a crowd low level and then a three sixty in afterburner, keeping it trying to fly directly over as tight as possible to the show line, you know, getting to fly, sneaking behind the crowd at high speed. Like, it's just a different completely different type of flying that can't really be equated to anything we all else we do.

Brian: 22:55

Like, just even from the get go, the start of the, the routine was the dirty roll, right after takeoff. So you would line up there. You would actually trim out the jet differently. You had a completely clean aircraft, so it performed its absolute best. So that that includes all the pylons, which normally don't get removed because the pylons hold, you know, your external fuel tanks, your weapons.

Brian: 23:19

So usually, the stuff attached to that is removed. Well, in this case, they remove everything. Right from the get go, you line up. You know, you're selecting burner with a jet that is lighter than any jet you normally fly, and you accelerate to just a slightly higher speed than normal. And it's just full back stick on takeoff, which is not a thing you would ever do with a plane otherwise because just burying the stick in your lap on a normal takeoff is probably a recipe to get yourself in in some trouble in terms of airspeed or stalling the aircraft, but you just bury it so that it pops off the ground.

Brian: 23:56

And then, with the gear still hanging, you're trying to roll this aircraft and then bring it into a loop while you're retracting the gear and right into the show. So it was

Bryan: 24:05

That's crazy.

Brian: 24:05

It was a thrill. It was better than any roller coaster because that kind of flying is isn't something you get to do normally. My favorite thing to do on that show was the high g three sixty. So you'd come along the show line and rate when you got to show center, you'd do a two seventy degree roll, so towards the crowd, so you end up pointing away. And then with the afterburner lit, just max g sustained rate three sixty.

Brian: 24:38

And then once you're lined back up at the show line, you're up into a loop. And it it just always it was very because you could see the crowd, and you could tell they're just watching, and you're having fun. It was just an experience that I hadn't had before. Yeah. But it was also very demanding because, I mean, that that is a high high risk scenario now is that, you know, maneuvering low to the ground.

Brian: 25:06

So I was always on the radio with a safety pilot. He's I'm calling out the altitudes anytime I'm doing anything up over the top, like a loop, for example, I'm calling out the altitudes. Because if I call it out wrong or if I if I start to, you know, sound like I I'm not completely in control, he can just knock off the show. So if I or if I misverbalize an altitude, then he'll he'll be there to back me up so that I've always got that safety buffer that we've trained for because it's a repetitive process that you start out in training with the previous demo pilot and you go through the same routine over and over again, starting from a higher altitude and stepping it down, stepping it down, that until you can do every maneuver essentially flawlessly. Because there there is a buffer between you and the ground, but it's not a big buffer.

Brian: 26:00

So you don't want to be busting any sort of top altitudes or getting slow when you're trying to recover. It's just got to be very precise. So the whole show only lasted about fifteen minutes, and that was a full tank of internal gas right down to pretty much bingo because the use of afterburner just it's gonna you're pretty much leaving in it leaving it in as long as possible, which is using an insane amount of fuel. Very demanding on the body, but at least it's for a short period. And then same with any of our flying that we do.

Brian: 26:37

There's always a brief with the ground. The public affairs officer and the safety officer, because the public affairs is the one doing all the announcing throughout all the music to it. So we we just go through the routine every time. I'm sure that people that watch the Snowbirds have seen, something similar, how they talk through the entire performance, before the show. Then after, we do a debrief.

Brian: 27:02

Ours is a little bit quicker than theirs. Quick, shorter show. And then, go out and mingle with the crowd, enjoy, just hanging out with people and get to see the rest of the show. So that was a it it was very exciting flying, and, I'm glad I got that opportunity.

Bryan: 27:20

Yeah. That sounds like an amazing opportunity.

Brian: 27:23

One of the other highlights, on the demo is I did not just the routine, though. I had the opportunity to fly with some other aircraft. So one of the there was a few, like, I got to fly with a, an original Vampire, if anyone knows what that is. It's a very old jet.

Bryan: 27:41

Oh, wow.

Brian: 27:43

Information as and it would just be, you know, some basic passes that, were information, past the crowd a few different directions. There was, yeah, actually, quite a few warbirds I got to fly with, But I think the the most interesting one was, Chris Hatfield and his Spitfire. We got to, do a flyby in So Ontario with that was that was quite neat. Something, that I'd never thought I'd be flying formation with a Spitfire before. And, it was it was very interesting just being able to, you know, get a look at that plane, fly next to it, really, enjoy having that experience.

Brian: 28:22

Experience. Yeah.

Bryan: 28:24

That's awesome. And Chris Hadfield was flying it? Yes. Yep. That's crazy.

Brian: 28:29

Yeah. Yeah. It was it was interesting meeting him.

Bryan: 28:32

Yeah. I bet. So let's get into your current posting Flight Training School in Decimomano Air Base in Italy. How did the opportunity to be posted there come about?

Brian: 28:44

So for the opportunity for that, I had heard rumors that a posting like that was gonna open up. We knew there was going to be some international training available. So, I went to my boss at the time and said, If this does become an option, please let me know and I would be very interested. I was kind of in the right place at the right time because qualifications required for that. They wanted someone with, you know, some four ship experience.

Brian: 29:14

They wanted someone that was teaching at 04:10. So the training experience with time on the jet. So it all kind of lined up, I was getting to a point at 04:10 where it was coming up on another posting anyway. So it just worked out that I had the qualifications, and my boss said, yeah. Well, I'll go to bat for you.

Brian: 29:35

And then, I was able to get selected for this role.

Bryan: 29:38

Awesome.

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Bryan: 30:30

What do your duties as senior national representative for Canada consist of?

Brian: 30:35

So it's kind of two roles. So my SNR, senior national representative, is just the connection liaison between the training squadron here in Italy and back in the division. I am not bridge for most of the operational stuff with the direct link to the squadron. The students here, I'm kind of like what you can consider, you know, a flight commander for them because we have eight students here right now, and the next two are showing up next week. So we have quite a number of students.

Brian: 31:14

So helping them initially before they get here, getting all the administrative work done, everything that needs to be done to get students to a program with all the support from the home unit because they're coming from Moose Jaw before they come here. And then any feedback or if there's any issues, that's where my sort of administrative role as the SNR come in. And then the other side of that is I'm an instructor on the aircraft here. So and with that, I work in the their tactics and standards division. So it's flying with the students.

Brian: 31:55

I try and fly with the Canadian students as much as I can, but it's flying with all the students here. There's quite a number of nationalities here. I wanna say over a dozen. Oh, wow. But I'd have to actually go and look how many are here.

Brian: 32:08

But, I mean, we have Italy being big one, but we also have Great Britain. US has an instructor and some students on the way. We have Sweden, Germany, Spain, Qatar. Who else am I missing? There's a few others that are here as well.

Brian: 32:28

So it's quite a big international group here. And then there's instructors from a bunch of those different countries as well. So we have I fly with Canadians some days, fly with students from different countries other days. And it's all phase four flying. That equivalent of IFF that we had talked about at NGEP.

Brian: 32:51

Post wings flying. So they're coming here as winged pilots, and this is their transition between, that course, which, is the phase three Harvard and going on to the Hornet. So this is that in between.

Bryan: 33:07

But they arrive with their wings now. Right?

Brian: 33:09

Yeah. Exactly. So this unlike NGEP where they have all phases going there, this Italy has different phases. Obviously, same type of program. But at this base, specifically, it's just phase four.

Brian: 33:24

So this is only winged pilots. We're not teaching the basics here. This is straight into how to fly a jet like a fighter jet.

Bryan: 33:34

Okay. Can you tell us about the lead in fighter training or lift course there in Italy?

Brian: 33:43

So the course, kinda like the course I described at four ten, it actually is a very good mirror of it. When they arrive here, the students will go through ground school, as you would expect, and then they are into the qual phase. Doing the basics, learning how to transition to this, take off and land, basic formation flying with it. Because even though they have done that before and they have their wings, each jet is different. So they have to learn how to fly instrument flight on this.

Brian: 34:16

It's a lot newer than what they've been flying previously. So it has some more of the nice aids for flying autopilot. It's got a HUD, stuff like that. So transitioning to it. And it is quite a bit more capable than Harvard.

Brian: 34:34

So there's a little bit of a learning curve when they initially get onto it. So that's the qual phase. And then they'll move into the air to air and air to ground, the more tactical phase. And then it mirrors what you would see on the Hornet. So starting off in the air to air phase, you're going be doing your 1v1 BFM, 2v1 ACM, and then onto the BVR.

Brian: 34:56

And then same with air to ground, same type of phases. And where this jet really excels compared to the t 38, which was an excellent jet, but it's old at this point. They've upgraded it, the one being used in NGEP. But it and same with the Hawk. I'm not trying to call out one specific jet or not.

Brian: 35:18

It's just a different generation of aircraft. So Mhmm. When I went through training on the t 38, and that's why I'm picking on it, I remember from training you wouldn't be able to simulate much with it when you're talking about the more advanced tactics. So, you could do 1v1, but when you're talking about simulating a missile, you just point at the other guy within a visual environment and call that your shot. Now, with the T-three 46, it has the ability to simulate what you would expect on a modern fighter jet within it.

Brian: 35:56

So for the air to air, it has simulated radar. So we don't have an actual radar because that you know, it's the cost versus complexity of trainer. But all the jets are on a common data link. So you can have your two aircraft flying. You can have adversary aircraft.

Brian: 36:21

You can simulate taking an AMRAAM, your beyond visual range radar guided missile. And the other aircraft is going to, on his radar warning receiver, know that his aircraft is being targeted by your radar. Even though you don't have an actual radar, it's just that synthetic data link being, communicated between the two. And then he'll get a hit notification when his jet actually has been struck by a missile. So you're seeing what you would see on a radar in the f 18.

Brian: 36:50

You're seeing that in this aircraft. So it's a whole lot more advanced in terms of training than what I got just because the capabilities are now there. So the course is nine months long. And that mirrors pretty much what the guys are going to see at four ten. It's all the same phases.

Brian: 37:08

Whereas when I went through on IFF, I want to say that was three to four months, which gives you a good introduction to the fighter type training. But now this is going beyond that with all the ability to create different threats in the air so that you can actually train to all the mission sets that a real jet would see. So we have the ability when we start talking about, you know, within visual range, it stimulates that you're actually using a heat seeking missile. So it will lock on, and you'll see in your HUD that it's got a lock both with the radar, with the IR missile. You can see when then you if you maneuver too much that it breaks that lock.

Brian: 37:55

They can simulate putting out chaff and flare that will affect that. And then you move into the beyond visual range. When you start employing, you can have someone at a console at the squadron. And this is something I do as well because everyone takes different positions. You have someone at the console at the squadron who's also operating as the ground controller for the intercepts, calling out, you know, all of the different threats.

Brian: 38:22

But they also can control and input red air or, like, aircraft into the air that, obviously, you're not gonna see visually, but it appears like on your radar, on all your sensors, that there's other aircraft out there. So you have to start targeting them Wow. Between the two of you, and you can see that. And then when you start talking about air to ground, it's not just point at the ground, press a button to simulate a dumb weapon, and dumb as in, like, unguided. Now you're talking about we have a synthetic targeting pod.

Brian: 38:56

So I mentioned the targeting pod before where you would, you know, use it to zoom in and out for either air to ground threats or interior to air threats. Well, now this has essentially you're looking at that same type of display. We don't have an actual targeting pod on board, but you have a whole image database of the area you're operating in. So you can zoom in on buildings. You can tell which ones are higher fidelity, so it's not a perfect representation.

Brian: 39:24

But if you have someone simulating that they're on the ground, we work with real army JTACs on the ground here. They will be able to talk you on with your sensors using that synthetic targeting pod and then you can employ your weapons on that. There are limitations. They can't talk you onto a car because that is not in the database. But the buildings and you can see the coastline, everything like that as you are maneuvering with that.

Brian: 39:56

And then having all the simulated air to ground weapons, which if you're going to try and laze in a weapon, it's similar mechanics to the Hornet. So it's very transferable skills. It's going to be a big step up from what they had seen previously, but it should hopefully bridge the gap and make a small step when they get to the Hornet. And it's also a lot more powerful than previous generations of trainers. So the thrust, the weight of this is quite a bit higher than what I'd previously experienced on trainers.

Brian: 40:30

So it's a supersonic capable jet. It has, you know, not the thrust of a Hornet, but quite a bit more thrust compared to previous training of similar type roles. They have twin engine, about 6,000 pounds of thrust each. Compared to the Hornet, was 10,000 to 12,000 pounds of thrust per engine. So we're talking, you know, and a little bit more an afterburner on the Hornet.

Brian: 41:02

So we're talking about, you know, a third a third the thrust, but that's quite a bit closer than previous generations of trainers have been. So it also feels more like the Hornet when you do that maneuvering compared to previous aircraft where they they were a bit more limited. So, like, the Hornet is seven and a half g capable. This one's actually eight g capable. So it's Wow.

Brian: 41:26

It it can pull, you know, the g. It has the thrust for the training. So the students aren't gonna see a big jump in performance. They'll see a jump in performance going to the Hornet, but it's not going to be, you know, light years ahead in performance compared to how it was potentially before.

Bryan: 41:45

So it won't be basically like as big of a jump as it was to go from, say, the t 38 Yeah. And then up to the Hornet?

Brian: 41:53

Yeah. Exactly. Like, compare the Hawk or the t 38 to the three forty six. The three forty six is probably 50% more thrust than either of those.

Bryan: 42:02

Okay.

Brian: 42:03

And higher g, tighter turn radius. And it's it also allows you because it it's built with that more training fly by wire mentality, you can select how much performance you want in terms of the G and capability. So if you want to simulate a less capable radar, you can dial it back, and it'll pull SG so that the student can have a bit of an advantage. Or then you can go full up or increase the amount of alpha it can pull. So it's very flexible in that.

Brian: 42:40

And the HOTAS, your hands on throttle and stick, which is how you're going to control all your sensors, it's also very analogous to the Hornet. It's actually almost identical in the stick. The throttles are a little bit different, but it's just learning where all the buttons are. Some of the buttons do different things. In one of them, chaff and flare switch might be a weapon select, something like that, but that's easy to transition as long as now you have the basic idea of if I'm controlling the radar, how I'm controlling it with my HOTAS.

Brian: 43:14

So it makes for a very simple not a simple transition, but it should be easier. Because I do remember coming from the t 38 and then trying to learn the radar, all the BVR, everything was new. In the Hornet, all the air to ground weapons were all new. So that shouldn't be the case anymore.

Bryan: 43:34

Yeah. It sounds like this is providing, like, a really high fidelity, very, very high quality training experience to the students.

Brian: 43:43

Yeah. Yeah. And it also creates some flexibility too because, we can link the sims with the flight and with that ground control station. Say we need to do something where you don't necessarily need two aircraft in flight, but it is normally a two aircraft type mission. A good example is a QRA intercept.

Brian: 44:05

Here are a scenario. You might have the lead aircraft doing the actual intercept and the number two aircraft sitting in a shadow position, up high and behind, being able to monitor this scenario, ready to engage if needed. For the training here, we don't necessarily need to have a physical aircraft in that shadow position that's not interacting. So what we do is we have the student in the sim. So, in the in the actual jet, the red air will take off, go out to the area, lead will take off, over the radio, talking to the sim, and the sim sees his lead on the runway and they're lined up on the runway together.

Brian: 44:50

We'll call for the same takeoff, departure, all the same calls. And in the SIM, he's flying next to his lead, and they're talking back and forth, making all the same radio calls, doing all the same stuff that you would as if you had two jets. Wow. The only difference being is that the lead aircraft, the one that's actually in flight, if he looks over his shoulder, no one's there. But the guy in the sim who asked to actually stay visual throughout the entire scenario, he sees leads aircraft in the position in a sim as it is currently in flight.

Bryan: 45:19

That's incredible.

Brian: 45:21

Yeah. It's it's very cool to see, and it works quite well.

Bryan: 45:23

And that's a huge cost saver too when it comes to training costs.

Brian: 45:27

Yeah. Exactly. So in that case, you save one aircraft per sortie of that sortie type because only the lead aircraft is gonna close into visual range of the Red Air. So you don't need the second aircraft actually to be in flight to get the same training opportunity.

Bryan: 45:43

Wow. From what I hear, the course can be challenging for Canadians who've only flown the Harvard and then make the jump to the three four six. Do you find that's true?

Brian: 45:53

Somewhat. It's it's hard for me to judge coming onto this with experience. And we haven't had anyone really struggle significantly, but they definitely, you know, report back to me after some of their flights or when we're seeing it together that, you know, they they are finding they're a little bit behind the jet initially. But that's also true of anyone coming onto this because it's always a bit of a jump up, but it can be just a little bit more of a handful. It's not hard to fly a handful type, but you are just going faster than they were before, so they have to be thinking a little quicker.

Brian: 46:32

It can be hard to slow down, surprisingly. If you are descending more than five degrees, it may start to want to pick up speed on you, even at idle. So if you're at like a six, seven degree descent and you haven't slowed down before you start your descent, you may find yourself with too much speed as you get to that, you know, holding point or whatever it is. They have to they also are trying to do all that while getting used to some of the EU rules. It's their first time probably not setting the altimeter at flight level one eight zero.

Brian: 47:05

The first time they have to remember to set it at 6,000. The the radio calls, for the most part, it's second language for most of the people flying around here. So it's they have to be really on their game, precise listening and speaking so that they aren't creating any confusion. So it's the first, I think, month of flying is a big step up. Just new country, new environment, new aircraft.

Brian: 47:34

But, we send them well prepared. So it's not too not too bad of a jump. And they've, you know, they do, all the required prep, lots of study time. They've got a pretty good facility here where, you know, when we were going through training, we had a poster on a wall to do our checks. Now they have two rooms with like 10 large touch screens with a full seat and stick and throttle that you sit and you can finger poke everything for all your startup checks through to study through your entire mission.

Brian: 48:03

And that's their version of a, you know, paper cockpit on a wall.

Bryan: 48:08

That's huge. Yeah. What training did you have to go through when you arrived in order to qualify as an instructor?

Brian: 48:15

So the, instructor pilot upgrade here is very similar to what the students go through. So it takes about nine months for the students to go through all the phases here, which includes, you know, everything from what we've talked about. They get to drop some ordinance on the range here. They're learning all the basics of the jet initially, everything we've talked about. It's the same for the IPs.

Brian: 48:41

The only difference is you split your time front and back seat. So whereas a student may do four front seats, just training formation flight missions, you as the IP will now do two from the front seat to learn it and then two from the back seat where you're having another IP in the front pretending to be the student.

Bryan: 49:03

Okay.

Brian: 49:04

So you you have the same length of course, pretty much all the same sorties. It's just half of them are front seat where you learn it and then you do the other half from the back seat where you learn to teach it.

Bryan: 49:19

So you're at you're going through, like, kind of swapping back and forth between being the student and being the instructor. You're learning the course at the same time as also learning to instruct?

Brian: 49:31

Yeah. Exactly. And you're going through you'll be paired up on a course with other students, not just instructor pilots, but if they're starting, you know, 10 students that month, there might be one instructor or two instructors on that course. So you'll prep for a mission with another student. It could be a Canadian student going through straight off of phase three your BFM sortie.

Brian: 49:58

And you'll prep it together. And then one day you might be flying in the front seat, get the feedback on how you did fly it again from the front seat, get the feedback. And then, you know, the third flight, now you're gonna have to give the brief and fly it from the or monitor it from the back seat as you would a student.

Bryan: 50:19

Okay.

Brian: 50:19

And, you know, and the other aircraft might be an actual student from your course that you're paired up with. So you do pretty much the same syllabus and you get a chance sort of a demo do type mentality throughout the course.

Bryan: 50:32

Okay. As a qualified instructor on the course, where do you typically see students struggle?

Brian: 50:39

It's hard to say if there is one place. I think early on, depending on what their background is, some can struggle a little bit with the language. Obviously, if they've done all their instruction in their home country, the language of instruction is English. But not everyone is coming with the exact same level. So that can be challenging for some guys early on trying to get all the right calm out because it's very sort of set calm.

Brian: 51:09

But when things are starting to be a little bit more dynamic, if they aren't as comfortable, it can be challenging. But you see that progress pretty quick once they get a feel for the jet, a little more capacity. And then it all depends on from there. Some guys, if they have a very strong background, then they tend to do fairly well. But it's also unique in that the course is a bit modular.

Brian: 51:41

You don't have to take every single piece of the course. So, a country that doesn't do air to air refueling, for example, would not take the air to air refueling module. So if a country has less has purchased less modules, well, they might be weaker in some areas at the end. So if we're doing they haven't they don't do any of the air to ground range where they have a bunch of practice attempts at deliveries of weapons, they may not be as competent in that one area at the end. But, you know, it's not the focus and you tailor the the training to that.

Bryan: 52:16

Okay.

Brian: 52:16

So you can see a little bit different in experience. And then different countries, each have their own little bit different lead in wings training. So if someone's coming through, the the Italian phase two and three, they're gonna have a little bit different background than a British person that came through the phase three there where they, you know, Canadians, Brits, whoever might have to learn not significantly different, but slightly different to even just basics of formation, for example, for, you know, what something's called. So it's it's easy to get past some of those hurdles, but they're not always expected by the students because they, you know, they think they have a they think they understand a concept. It's like, well, you actually said that the Canadian way.

Brian: 53:08

Here's what they want here. And that's true of anything. And but once we get past that initial qual phase where, you know, language training differences kind of kind of don't matter as much because now everything is new. Now, one v one or air to ground deliveries are new for everyone. It doesn't matter what their background is.

Brian: 53:30

It kind of all once they get qualified on the jet, they're they're pretty much all at the same base level.

Bryan: 53:36

Yeah. That makes sense. When Canadian students finish this course, what's next for them?

Brian: 53:42

So from here, they are going direct to the Hornet. Well, there will be a little bit of wait time in between. There always is. But they are going to the Hornet course. Four ten has been looking around, seeing how they can take advantage of the longer and a bit more advanced training that they experience here and see if they can use that to tweak the training syllabus at four ten.

Brian: 54:07

So, right now, they will go to four ten with other grads from this program, with other grads from IFTS, and then they will have separate four ten courses from all the grads coming from NGEP. Right now, we still have students going to both. It will be a course from Italy, a course from Engep, course from Italy, Engep, and they will bounce back and forth between the two courses as they go through. That way, they can tailor their program there based on the type of training they got. So, it's pretty much everyone coming out of here though is guaranteed a spot on the Hornet.

Bryan: 54:47

That's pretty awesome. And and that makes sense that they're separating those courses based just based on what you've said. Like, not that there's anything not that there's anything wrong with the training you get at NJET by any means, but just that they are sounds like pretty different in terms of the generation of jet you're flying. And so you just have different experiences.

Brian: 55:06

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's what we had at NGEP is the same product when I went through, you know, with minor upgrades. It's the same product of a pilot they're producing now.

Brian: 55:20

So it's just able to go that next step further with IFTS.

Bryan: 55:25

Okay. Okay. So we're getting close to the end of our interview. So we're gonna do our classic final three questions. With all the experience you have, what is one thing you've learned that you need to do in order to stay ready to do your job?

Brian: 55:40

Think it's not necessarily to stay ready, but it's to stay focused because it's easy to get bogged down in the you know, all the little stuff that the military life brings with it. And you can kind of get bummed out. Things aren't going your way. And it's just to keep going and not let those things that are outside your control drag you down. Yes.

Brian: 56:08

You know, as a student, you'll see that kind of thing where there's something frustrating about the training system. You have no control over that. Even as, you know, an SNR in Italy, there would be things I would like to see done differently, but it's not my program. And you just have to accept that is how it is and Yeah. You know, not let that affect your mood.

Brian: 56:29

Or if it does affect your mood, just, you know, go out on Friday, complain about it with your friends, and then move past it. Because if you dwell on those things outside of your control, it it just will become overwhelming trying to think about everything that you have no effect on.

Bryan: 56:46

Yeah. In your experience in both the operational and training worlds, what makes a great fighter pilot?

Brian: 56:54

What makes a great fighter pilot, I think, is just really the ability to kinda commit to it. Because if if your heart's not in it when you're early on, it's not gonna get better. You you want to be sure this is something you wanna give a shot. Because when it does get tough, when there is a lot going on, when you you feel like you're maxed out, then you have to be able to just kind of, yeah, be sure that you're on the right goal. And even if you're not sure, just be committed that I will, know, fly my best today and try and learn as much as I can, and that's all I can do.

Brian: 57:34

Because if if you start to second, you know, doubt yourself at any point, then you're gonna look at how much effort you're putting into it, and it's just gonna spiral. So you have to just kinda commit even if even if you're struggling. It's it's kind of a commitment game.

Bryan: 57:52

Okay. If you were in the Moose Jaw mess today and you ran into someone who wanted to be a fighter pilot, what would your advice to them be?

Brian: 58:00

I mean, just go for it. I know some people are on the fence sometimes about it. But if you if you wanna do it, I mean, you just gotta you try. And if it's not, meant to be, then it's just not gonna work. But all you can do is try.

Brian: 58:17

And then if you get there, you get there. And if not, there's always gonna be other opportunities.

Bryan: 58:22

Right on. Okay, Brian. That's gonna wrap up our chat for today. It was so cool to hear about your career and to catch up. Like, you know, we haven't seen each other since Moose Jaw.

Bryan: 58:32

So to get a chance to just hear how you're doing, hear what you've done, to hear that we operated in some of the same theaters was really neat. It's been great to learn about the LIFT program in Italy. And I'm really looking forward to getting together with one of your students, Eli, who attended the LIFT course as well to hear about it from the student perspective. So thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it.

Brian: 58:54

You're welcome.

Bryan: 58:55

Okay. That wraps up our chat with my good buddy, Brian Kilroy, all about his time as an instructor on the F eighteen Hornet, as well as his current role as senior national representative for the LIFT program in Italy. For our next episode, we'll be closing out this three part series by sitting down with Eli, a recent graduate of the LIFT program, so that we can get a view of the course from the student's perspective. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?

Bryan: 59:23

You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and Mission Aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.

Bryan: 59:48

Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four.