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Bryan: 00:58

Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is major Ian Wookie, a TACHEL pilot on the CH one forty seven f Chinook and current executive assistant to chief of Air and Space Force Development in Ottawa, Ontario. Ian, it's great to get you back on the show.

Bryan: 01:20

Thanks again for being here.

Ian: 01:21

Hey. Happy to be here again, Brian.

Bryan: 01:23

So listeners can tune in to part one of our chat to hear about Ian's early career and time in flight training. Today for part two of our chat with Ian, we're going to talk about his time flying operationally with four fifty tactical helicopter squadron. So, Ian, as we said in part one, after phase three, you were posted to four fifty tactical helicopter squadron in Petawawa, Ontario to fly the CH one forty seven f Chinook. What was it like to arrive at an operational squadron as a newly winged captain, especially as only the second one to arrive straight from wings training?

Ian: 01:52

I it it was a pretty unique experience. I I was actually arriving as a newly winged lieutenant for a couple of months.

Bryan: 01:59

Right. Yeah.

Ian: 02:01

Managed to get my flight training done, quickly enough, shortly promoted to captain thereafter. But it was a little bit odd because there were a 100 people in the unit at that time, but all of them were waiting for helicopters. So we were actually distributed in different locations across CFB Petawawa. We had about four different kind of office spaces that we were working from, trying to figure out how to establish a helicopter squadron, without the hangar building yet being built, without the aircraft being on the ground. But with all of kind of

Bryan: 02:39

the

Ian: 02:39

institution around us trying to establish the footprint of the Chinooks in Petawawa and how we're going to manage that. So very early on, most people, show up to the new unit. They kind of take a look at the simulators. They take a look at the OTU. They kind of figure out what their schedule is going to look like.

Ian: 03:00

And then they kind of get to see operations in action. This was a bit of a change of pace where it was immediately into looking at the institutional architecture of how to stand up a squadron, how to build routine orders, how to build SOPs, how to build a maintenance plan for an aircraft that we didn't have yet, all while they're still doing testing and evaluation on the aircraft with Boeing in The US. So it was a unique perspective to have at that time, especially as somebody who's brand new and with no other frame of reference for for how this is supposed to work as a as a new pilot trainee.

Bryan: 03:41

Yeah. And and I guess the reason behind that was because if I remember correctly, we had essentially gotten c h one forty seven D Chinooks that we used in Afghanistan. But after we were done with the D models, we waited on the F models for a

Ian: 03:57

bit. Right? Yeah. But a bit of background on that one. The the CH 47 Delta models were leased from the US Army specifically for use in Afghanistan.

Ian: 04:06

So once the Canadian combat operation ended at the 2011, the lease on those aircraft expired and we did not bring those aircraft back operationally into Canada. We now have a couple of them back in Canada on pedestals, but we stopped using them at that time. While we were flying the Delta models in Afghanistan, the RCAF was working on a procurement project of the 47 F, specifically for Canada, which is actually a bit of a variant of the golf model from The US. Unique to the Canadian, the RCA. It's a unique airframe to the RCAF.

Ian: 04:49

The procurement of those aircraft started, I want to say around the twenty ten, 'eleven timeframe. But the first I probably started earlier than that. But the first production aircraft didn't actually come off the line until 2013. So the unit was reactivated as four fifty Squadron in May 2012. But we didn't have the first aircraft delivery until June 2013.

Bryan: 05:16

And and when did you arrive there again?

Ian: 05:18

I got there right at the 2013.

Bryan: 05:20

Okay.

Ian: 05:21

So so right kinda halfway in between squadron establishment aircraft arrival.

Bryan: 05:26

Okay. Wow. So that must have been a really strange environment to arrive into with your you've got your wings, you're ready to fly, and there's no aircraft.

Ian: 05:36

Yeah. It it it was unique. Luckily, I was going back to the Petawawa, which was a base I I knew well, from my time at four two seven. Yeah. Still had a lot of good relationships and contacts with, with some some friends in the army in Petawawa.

Ian: 05:50

So I I wasn't, I wasn't completely out of my depth or element. But I also had unique experiences to to be able to get involved in things like, the the actual build of the the hangar. I I was able to walk through that building a few times as it was being built, and kind of, help have input on where different parts of the unit were going to be located in the building and how we were going to shape occupation of that building. Right? So again, unique experiences that aren't necessarily related to piloting, but are definitely related to just being an officer and doing doing things for the military and being prepared to be effective in whatever role you're put in.

Bryan: 06:30

Yeah. So as we've said, you arrived about six months prior to the delivery of the first 47 f Chinook. Why were these helicopters a significant upgrade to the Delta models?

Ian: 06:41

So the Delta models were production airframes from kinda late eighties, nineties.

Bryan: 06:48

Okay.

Ian: 06:49

The these f models were and and the designation c h one four seven f is the specific Canadian designation, which also differentiates them from the c h 47 f is, which is the American, the US army variant.

Bryan: 07:03

Right. And they're different aircraft.

Ian: 07:04

And they are diff they are different aircraft. I mean, a Chinook is a Chinook. They're they they look they look the same. They sound the same. But some noticeable differences you'll see with our aircraft.

Ian: 07:13

The first thing you'll notice is the fuel tanks. So we've got fuel capacity that's about double

Bryan: 07:18

that

Ian: 07:19

of

Bryan: 07:19

Oh, wow.

Ian: 07:20

Of a of a d model or an American f model. That gives us four to five hours of, of endurance, which was a specific requirement for us to be able to operate, across Canada. It's it's a pretty wide open land. And I I can, absolutely assure you that we have made use of being able to fill those fuel tanks and go for long distances, 500 to 600 nautical mile legs, in a Chinook, which is a little bit long for most helicopters, of that size and fuel burn. Some other things we did, we upgraded the electronic system in the aircraft.

Ian: 08:02

So we've got larger, more robust generators. We've got a third rectifier in the aircraft, which is unique. And we've got a power distribution system that's been beefed up. Not to get too technical, but there's the the power distribution to convert between the AC and the DC is more robust than than some of the other helicopters. And how we manage the systems across the buses actually allows for better load sharing.

Bryan: 08:29

Okay.

Ian: 08:30

It's a as a very technical aircraft, and it's fully digital glass cockpit, automated flight controls, hydraulic boost on all the systems. There's a lot of power demand. And especially if you start putting mission kits on it, like the EOIR.

Bryan: 08:45

Which is the, the camera.

Ian: 08:47

Yeah. The electro optical infrared camera. When you mount things like that on the aircraft, the the the power draw that comes at it could overwhelm certain electrical systems. But with the, with the system we've got on the aircraft, we we really don't have any issues with, with power drop.

Bryan: 09:03

Okay. So some pretty significant upgrades.

Ian: 09:07

Yes. Significant and, I'd say necessary for operating in the in the Canadian climate.

Bryan: 09:14

Yeah. For sure. So with the vast majority of qualified pilots being on their second operational airframe, how do they look at you being straight off your wings course? Did you feel you had something to prove?

Ian: 09:27

You'd have to ask them how they looked at me. But, I'll say, it it was actually really good to be able to learn from them. Everybody in the unit, besides the the few of us who were newly minted off of flight training, had operational experience on another fleet, a lot of them on the Griffin. And a lot of them had combat experience from the D model, having just returned from Afghanistan. So being able to learn from some pretty senior instructors in tactical aviation, who I'd fly with early on, to be able to learn from the the Boeing instructors who were in the building at the time.

Ian: 10:09

Because when we were initially standing up the squadron, part of the, part of the contract for the the the Shinneh project was to have Boeing teach the initial cadre

Bryan: 10:19

Okay.

Ian: 10:19

Of military students, which at that time included us because we were there and they were there. So being able to learn from, most of those Boeing civilians who were all high time, US Army aviation Chinook crews as well, It definitely benefited the training that we got to be able to learn from their experiences. At the same time, we were crews who had just been trained on, I want to call it a fully digital system, but digital systems, glass cockpit in the outlaw, the Bell four twelve. And the Delta models we had leased in Afghanistan were completely analog. They did not have the digital systems in them at all.

Ian: 11:03

So crews coming off the Griffin at that time or the 47 Delta didn't have the same experience with advanced flight management systems, glass cockpits, kind of like the the digital side of aviation. So it was it was interesting in that as much as we were learning from them, I I think they learned from us because we had a a little bit of savvy in terms of, we'll call it the button pushing Yeah. Of being able to to fight the aircraft. Because as as much as it is about flying the helicopter, once you can fly the helicopter and, this this Chinook is so advanced with some of the digital autopilot capabilities it has it. It it can literally fly itself for, for a lot of regimes of flight.

Ian: 11:52

The real challenge of flying the aircraft actually comes in fighting the aircraft, and that's usually using the mission kits, using the radios effectively, using the mission management systems effectively, being able to build your essay in the battle space around you to make sure that you get whatever you've got in that aircraft to the right place at the right time, in the right configuration.

Bryan: 12:15

Yeah. And that's kind of I think that's true for a lot of platforms in the air force that flying the aircraft is just step one because you don't just you're not there to fly technically. You're there to accomplish a mission, and you accomplish that mission with the systems on board. So systems management and using the equipment on board really is the meat and potatoes of accomplishing the mission.

Ian: 12:35

Yeah. A 100%. And that's that's absolutely no different with the Chinook. It's just now now you're dealing with even more radios, even more mission systems, fully digital architecture, fully digital cockpit setup. That's a that that was unique to some people who hadn't seen it before, but we we had a the the group of us who got to the squadron early out of flight training had a had a bit of an aptitude for, picking up quickly.

Ian: 13:05

And I guess that's the other advantage of being that early. We we got to talk directly to some of the contractors from Rockwell who had done the initial design on our cockpit system to be able to actually learn from the engineers and the the folks who built those systems, how they actually functionally worked, to be able to better design SOPs for use around that.

Bryan: 13:34

That's really cool. How long did you actually have to wait for your operational training flight or OTF?

Ian: 13:43

It was about eighteen months. Sixteen to eighteen months before I actually got in climbed into the cockpit for the first time to be able to start my flight training. So it wasn't a short wait by any means. Not necessarily the longest wait considering, some of the challenges we've had with our OTUs recently. But I definitely used those eighteen months to learn as much as I could about the aircraft and to take the opportunity to go flying when I could with other people who were training, just to sit in the jump seat and see what was going on, be able to listen on the comms, to be able to hear what the instructors were doing, to be able to speak to the instructors who were already flying and absorb as much as I could just by being around it.

Bryan: 14:34

Yeah. Now you completed your initial qualification course in twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. We've kind of briefly touched on this, but can you give us an idea of what the course consisted of?

Ian: 14:45

Yeah. It was a little unique at that time because we didn't have our simulators fully established yet. So the majority of the course was done actually flying in the aircraft. We were also doing training where we're training both pilots and crew members at the same time. So on a standard sortie, we'd have a crew of seven.

Ian: 15:08

We'd have three pilots and four crew members. So we'd have one instructor pilot, two student pilots, two instructor crew members, either flight engineer or load master, and then two student crew members as well. So we'd go out for about a four hour, sorry, we'd use that full, tank of gas endurance, And we would, do do our standard maneuvers that way. The ground school at that time was taught by Boeing, as part of their, their support to the Chinook project and the Chinook initiation. So while we had Boeing instructors teaching ground school, it was the, the green suit, the military instructors that were that were teaching my qualification course.

Bryan: 15:51

Now one of the unique things about that course at the time, and correct me if I have this wrong, but, was that some of the flying was taught by folks who had just converted onto the Chinook. Was it strange to be taught by people who had only just converted onto that aircraft type?

Ian: 16:09

It was it wasn't really I wouldn't call it strange. I would call it a just a unique learning experience. Because most of the instructors that I'd flying with, they had only just finished their qualification on the aircraft from their Boeing instructors. Right? So that the aircraft was brand new.

Ian: 16:27

Nobody had actually flown it before to be able to get a feel for what the Canadian Chinook, could actually do or was capable of. So there was a lot of, learning by osmosis and learning through a team effort. So again, as we're going through training, I may have an instructor beside me who's got several thousand hours of flight and can teach me how to execute a perfect roll on landing in a Chinook. Meanwhile, in the same sortie, I'm teaching them how to program a flight plan into the FMS because I've been I've been practicing that in in my spare time with a with an aircraft on ground power in the hangar

Bryan: 17:08

Mhmm.

Ian: 17:08

And learning the digital side of the aircraft. So it it was definitely a team effort in getting all of the training done.

Bryan: 17:14

Okay. And that, like you said, that's a very unique experience.

Ian: 17:18

Yeah. A 100. But it it built crews that understood each other, and it it it just brought the crews closer together, I think.

Bryan: 17:26

Yeah. What would you say was the most challenging aspect of getting qualified on the Shinnok compared to previous helicopters you'd flown?

Ian: 17:35

The most challenging was definitely the mission systems. The previous helicopters I'd flown in were only in training. So flying the two zero six or the four twelve at three CFFTS, the goal is to learn how to fly the helicopter. How to manipulate the flight controls and work the radios to get the aircraft from point A to point B via whatever route you planned effectively. And if you can do that successfully at the kind of at the right altitude and airspeed, everything else kind of happens with the Chinook training.

Ian: 18:10

As you said, that's the first three flights is figure out how to physically manipulate the flight controls to get the aircraft from point A to point B. And then all of the training after that is how to actually fight the aircraft, how to get the right cargo load, packs load from the right place to the right place, using the mission systems, using the radios, doing it at night, doing it low level, right? So it's not just helicopter training, it is a very much a tactical training.

Bryan: 18:46

So if the biggest challenge is using those mission systems and learning to do that, how do you work through that? Is it basically just a case of repetition and and training?

Ian: 18:55

Yeah. Kind of like anything in life, the only way to get experiences by doing it. So, getting in the simulator, getting in the aircraft, using the kit effectively, talking to other people who are using the equipment on a day to day basis, and doing your homework, making sure that you're studying the systems and how they're going to work so that when something inevitably goes wrong, you're not trying to figure out how the system works before you're trying to troubleshoot it. And you have the ability to actually troubleshoot it while you're in the aircraft and do something about it without affecting the mission.

Bryan: 19:30

Yeah. So of course, one of the ways we gain experience is by attending exercises. Your first big exercise was exercise Maple Resolve in the 2015. At that time, Maple Resolve was the Canadian Army's largest and most complex training exercise involving approximately 6,750 CAF and partner military personnel. What is the overall goal of MAPLE Resolve and why is it important for the RCAF to take part in this training?

Ian: 19:59

MAPLE Resolve is built as the culminating exercise for brigade level operations in the Canadian Army. So it's kind of a capstone training event that the Canadian Army had to be able to validate their brigades for combat. And it's brigade force on force exercise in Wainwright. The objective was to simulate a combat environment for the Canadian Army to be able to test themselves and their effectiveness for eventual combat operations. The primary role of tactical aviation is support to the land force through the provision of firepower, mobility and reconnaissance.

Ian: 20:45

So it is absolutely essential that we are involved with the Canadian Army. Anytime they're doing that level of training, we need to be there with them.

Bryan: 20:52

Yeah.

Ian: 20:53

They well, they they need us to be there with them. And we need us to be there with them. Right? Like it's a, it's, it's a symbiotic relationship where they, they, they cannot complete their training without us there. And it's not realistic for them to show up to an environment at that level and not have helicopter support available.

Bryan: 21:13

Right.

Ian: 21:13

Wherever they're going to go in the world, we're going to make sure that we're there to support just just like we are in Latvia with them right now.

Bryan: 21:19

Yeah. So basically, they can't get realistic training without you folks, but your primary focus of existing is to serve them as customers, basically.

Ian: 21:30

Our primary purpose for existence is to support them. So if they're doing that level of training, then we're we're gonna be we're gonna be doing it with them.

Bryan: 21:37

Right on. What was it like to take part in such a large exercise as a newly trained pilot on the Chinook? Did you have any clue what was going on or were you just trying to keep up?

Ian: 21:49

A little bit of both. Yeah. The the advantage of having a large scale exercise like that and and being in tactical aviation now, mean, I consider this is 2015, and I've now kinda had experience in one wing from two thousand nine, two thousand ten. So I I'm familiar with army operations. We're living in Garrison Petawawa.

Ian: 22:06

So we have a long standing relationship with two Canadian mechanized brigade group, which is being on the largest army base in Canada. We get a lot of exposure to army operations. We do routine training with them in Petawawa locally. So we know how the army functions. We know what the training scheme maneuver is.

Ian: 22:24

We are able to speak their language and completely integrate into their training. So it's not that we didn't, it's not that I didn't have any clue what's going on. It's that as a, as a new first officer on a Chinook, it's trying to now take everything I know about the army, take everything I know about flying a Chinook and marry it together in a way that's operationally relevant and do it in a multi aircraft formation. I think that was my first exposure to being able to actually fly with Griffins, the CH146's information, to be able to fly with multiple Chinooks, executing actual training with live troops, with live equipment. So that, that was the big step up in training for us was not just, not just flying a Chinook, not just supporting the army, but actually doing it at scale, multiple aircraft, multiple crews, 20 fourseven operations.

Ian: 23:26

So now you're getting into the routine of, okay, what's this actually gonna look like when we're doing it for real?

Bryan: 23:31

That must be pretty exciting. Like the first time you're in formation with a large helicopter force and you I imagine you're landing in a field and having a ton of troops, like, get out of the helicopters and that must be pretty cool.

Ian: 23:43

Yeah. It's it's really cool to see, from in the helicopter. It's really cool to see on the ground. So one one of the roles I had during that exercise was to be a aviation liaison officer. So I actually was embedded with one of the battalions of Army forces that were on the ground at that time.

Ian: 24:04

I was out with them in the field for five days helping them plan and prepare for a large scale or mobile mission. And it was my first exposure to actually being on the ground radio in hand, helping to coordinate the onload in the pickup zone for this company's worth of troops that's about to get on the three Chinooks that are coming. And having the Chinooks come 10 feet over the trees above your head and land in the field right in front of you at night, night vision goggles, low light, and all the troops moving toward the aircraft. There's some really cool things you get to do in the military that that'll stick with you. And that was one of the things for me to be able to have that experience.

Ian: 24:42

And then two days later, now I'm the one sitting in the cockpit doing the same thing. And it it's it's just a really cool experience and a really cool frame of reference to have when you're when you're working with those folks to both be on the ground with them and then be in the air supporting them.

Bryan: 24:56

Yeah. It sounds, very cinematic to to see. So up next for the 2015 was supporting Operation Nanook in Inuvik, Northwest Territories. Op Nanook is the CAF's signature northern operation designed to exercise the defense of Canada and to secure our northern regions. What was the role of four fifty squadron during Op Nanook?

Ian: 25:20

Our role during Opninook, we were assigned to take, two Chinooks up to Inuvik Northwest Territories, to do I mean, the Nanook series of operations generally is is an Arctic sovereignty exercise. It proves our capability to be able to operate in the Arctic. And it's got secondary goals of making sure that our infrastructure in the Arctic is, up to snuff and well established. Our primary role was to move forces between different forward operating locations, and along the coast of the Bering Sea. So we were we were going out, between, I guess, 8,200 nautical miles, from our location in Innovec, kind of north to Tuktaiuktaiuk and then east across the across the coast to move troops into into forward operating locations, which were either, camps that were being established as part of their training exercise, or, radar sites that we were bringing people up there to, to be able to conduct maintenance on.

Ian: 26:23

Okay. Cool. So we we were the primary asset to be able to move troops in between those locations, which was actually really cool because this was the the first Nanook that we were supporting. It was the first time that we'd been able to move forces at that scale. You can put 30 troops in the back of a Chinook to be able to move a platoon sized element to a location 200 nautical miles away and not have to have them worry about whether or not they can get back by road or whether or not they're near an airstrip because we can land them anywhere they need to be there.

Bryan: 26:56

Right on. What was it like to fly in the Arctic summer in a Chinook?

Ian: 27:01

Arctic summers are beautiful. I don't know for anybody who's ever had the opportunity to go to the, to go north of the tree line during the, during the summer months, it's an absolutely gorgeous place to be, flying out kind of off the, like right along the bearing coast, looking out over the water and seeing the pods of beluga swimming in the water, looking down at the Arctic Tundra and seeing nothing for miles except the wetlands and the wildlife. It was absolutely a phenomenal experience, to be able to see that part of the country from the air during that exercise. So I thought I thought that was that was really cool.

Bryan: 27:42

Yeah. That sounds amazing.

Ian: 27:43

On the other hand, Arctic weather is temperamental, to say the least. And knowing the limitations of some of the reporting stations up there, that's something you always got to be on the lookout for, because at any time you could have, you could be 20 degrees in sun one day and you could be four degrees and freezing rain the next day with some of the fog moving off the coast of the shore there. So there were definitely challenges associated with the weather that we experienced there. But we did have the advantage of being there in August, which is just that I I think it's a perfect time of year to be in the Arctic.

Bryan: 28:23

So next up for you in the 2015 was your basic tactical aviation course or BTAC. What was the purpose of this course? And can you give us a breakdown of what it consists of?

Ian: 28:34

Yeah. The basic tactical aviation course is, is OneWings course to build section leads. So, in the pilot progression and in the crew progression, as we go through what it takes to be an effective tactical aviator. We build crews from first officer up to aircraft captain. From aircraft captain, now what we're trying to do is train them to be, we call them flight.

Ian: 29:00

And that's, so that's not just be able to fly your aircraft, not just to be able to manage the mission of your aircraft, but now to be able to do it for other aircraft. So the training of BTech is to take your knowledge base and skill level and expand it from single helicopter operations or being a helicopter in a formation to now leading that formation. So can you take another Chinook and be in command of those two aircraft and those elements and actually do mission accomplishment? Because realistically, as a helicopter force, and in one way, it's Chinooks, whether it's Griffins, we can operate alone, but it's not ideal. Having mutual support of another aircraft is definitely the best way for us to operate, in any tactical environment, for any emergency response, for any tactical effect, putting weapons down range, defensive systems.

Ian: 30:00

It's always better to operate in at least two and sometimes more. But two is kind of the ideal number. So how do you now lead that element into a combat environment, into a complex mission environment, and be able to do that? So that's what we do on our basic tactical aviation course. That was a bit of a step for me at that time, because, that was probably only six to eight months after I had actually gained a category on the aircraft.

Ian: 30:32

So I did have the challenge of being one of the most junior, I'd say junior experience wise pilots on the course. So that was a pretty steep learning curve, but it was really rewarding and actually being able to get exposure to again, operations at scale. And the way that PTAC is built, it's Griffin's and Chinook's operating together. We've typically got forces from Petawawa from 2CMBG will come out, help support us there. So we'll be putting live troops and equipment into a training area to be able to simulate what it's actually like to move them in combat.

Bryan: 31:12

Wow.

Ian: 31:12

So really, really rewarding training and really intense. Because it's not just the flying, it's the planning too. So it's how do you effectively build a plan for your section now to get from point A to point B through enemy defenses within weapons engagement range or outside of weapons engagement range, if you're planning correctly, of the enemy that you're trying to counter. So it's it's it's it's demanding training, but it's really, really valuable.

Bryan: 31:43

You mentioned that for you, the biggest challenge was being fairly junior on the course. How did you overcome that challenge?

Ian: 31:53

Same way I overcame all the challenges I leaned on everybody else around me. Yeah. I I definitely it's again, it's a team effort. We leaning on the crews that I had with me, leaning on the experience that that I had around me at that time too. Again, that time, we were lucky enough to have a whole lot of senior aviators who had that level of combat experience and could give you a good frame of reference for what was going on around you and how to work through some of the challenges that you're facing on the course.

Ian: 32:25

Whether it's because lack of experiences is not something you can overcome quickly. You can only overcome by doing it or getting experience or by learning through others' experience. So having those people to lean on and learn from was definitely beneficial for me.

Bryan: 32:41

Yeah. How did it feel to take on the responsibility of being a Chinook section lead? Did you find your perspective and priorities changed?

Ian: 32:52

Priorities? No. Perspective? Yes. It it's definitely one thing it's one thing to be a be a pilot on the Chinook and be a first officer and be able to jump in the cockpit and just go flying and have somebody else sitting beside you who's senior and responsible for all the critical decision making.

Ian: 33:13

You're kind of just reacting and helping and being there as a competent pilot to be able to to help achieve the mission. But now as soon as you go aircraft captain section lead, now you are the one who is charged with making decisions on behalf of that aircraft. You are the one charged with making decisions on behalf of that crew. It's now your responsibility to make sure that the two aircraft, the eight people, 10 people, and the crew are actually able to make it safely from point A to point B. And if something does go wrong, which inevitably plans change, things go wrong, it's ultimately your decision to decide what's going to happen next.

Ian: 33:56

Now, you're not taking that in isolation. You're obviously talking to the people you've got with you. But knowing that going into the mission that you're the one who has to be the responsible decision maker for, millions of dollars of assets and, multiple lives definitely changes your perspective how you're going to make decisions during that mission. And that's the big thing too, is in the training, really get a sense of risk acceptance and risk tolerance. And having those conversations with the supervisors and the people who can accept that risk to know what risks are acceptable to take and where kind of your level of risk tolerance lies as a as a senior decision maker.

Bryan: 34:44

For sure. And that's something that develops with time too. Right? Comfort with risk and understanding which risks are acceptable and what makes sense.

Ian: 34:54

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that that's something we really drive home in in one wing through through the mission acceptance, launch authority process, through the training we do with the with the BTech, with the ATAC, is getting that understanding of who is in command of what element and who is the risk holder and who is able to actually accept the risks that you're going to take. Because ultimately, it's it may not be the commander taking the risk that they're assuming. So as an aircraft commander or a section lead, you have to be able to take that commander's intent, take that commander's risk tolerance, and make sound decisions with your crews based on, kind of the risk window you've been given and the requirements of the mission.

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Bryan: 36:36

So a pattern that listeners will probably notice if they're paying close attention here is that you and your unit were very busy. Still in the 2015, you took part in joint operational airborne exercise or JOACS in a place that would become quite familiar to you, Fort Bragg. What was the Chinook's role in this large airborne exercise?

Ian: 36:57

Yeah. JOACS twenty fifteen was, was another really cool experience in the fall where it was the the first time we got to take the Chinook down on a on a multinational exercise. Went down to Fort Bragg, North Carolina with a with a couple of aircraft. And we embedded ourselves with the with the US army, with the eighty second Combat Aviation Brigade in support of a, at this time, it was a brigade, air mobile. The eighty second Airborne Division has a mandate to be I mean, it is the premier airborne division in the US Army.

Ian: 37:38

And they do what's called JFE, Joint Forcible Entry, and kinda airfield seizure tasks, at scale at a division level. So if if you need if you need somebody to jump into an AO behind enemy lines

Bryan: 37:56

And for the listeners, an AO is just an area of operations.

Ian: 38:00

Able to hold a piece of terrain, you're gonna probably call the eighty second. So what we were doing there is we were training at a brigade level airborne exercise where they were parachuting onto a simulated airfield. And we were embedded with the 80 as part of the support package of the helicopter force that was going to be following up with follow on chalks of support equipment and personnel once the airfield was secure. So the objective there was really just to embed ourselves with the US Army, get a sense of their planning processes. They work on a scale that we just honestly can't comprehend in Canada.

Ian: 38:41

Yeah. I think Fort Bragg has about 50,000 people working on the base. 30,000 of those our regular force army troops.

Bryan: 38:50

That's crazy.

Ian: 38:52

And that's probably not much smaller than our army. So to be able to see that and work with them and understand how they plan and how they operate, knowing that anywhere we go in the world, we are likely to be working with Americans. We're likely to be working with allies and partners anywhere we go, regardless of whether they're American, whether they're Brit, whether they're other NATO partners. So to be able to to get that experience in training, to be able to speak a common language, understand the planning processes, that that was the goal of of that exercise.

Bryan: 39:29

What kind of preparation goes into attending an international large scale exercise? And what do you find the crews learn from attending?

Ian: 39:36

The crews learn a different way of doing business and a different way of fitting into the scheme maneuver. Right? What we're used to doing in Canada is anytime we're doing training is we become the primary training audience, We are doing our own training for our own benefit. When we go down to a large scale exercise like that, we're not necessarily the ones who are being evaluated or trained. So we have to be able to take our perspective of how do we fit into the bigger fight?

Ian: 40:06

How do we actually put our assets into the right place to be an effective partner in the training that's being done? So that's how the crew's perspective shifts is you you recognize that you're you're you're not necessarily the main effort.

Bryan: 40:18

Right.

Ian: 40:18

You are a supporting effort, enabling a larger a larger force to be able to achieve their aims. So how do you make sure that you're not the one getting in the way of success by being competent and effective in what you're doing and integrating yourself fully into their planning?

Bryan: 40:37

Yeah. It's it's very important. Right? Like you're accomplishing some pretty essential training for a large unit. And like the last thing that you want is to be the reason that that training hits a hitch.

Bryan: 40:52

In the 2016, you attended exercise Trillium Response in Pickle Lake in Northern Ontario. The aim of this exercise is to maintain and sharpen the calf's operational capabilities in austere Arctic environments. What special challenges do these conditions bring to operating the Chinook?

Ian: 41:09

Yeah. True in response was that year it was led by, two Royal Canadian Horse Artillery out of Petawawa. So we were a single Chinook tasked with supporting their ski maneuver in Pickle Lake, Ontario between 2RCA and the Canadian Rangers that were in location. That was really good cold weather exposure for the aircraft to figure out how do we operate in conditions like that. So the aircraft is tested and is capable of operating well into the, well into the, the negative temperatures.

Ian: 41:52

But I do remember that was a unique transit where I think when we took off at a Petawawa in February, it was minus 32 on the ground.

Bryan: 42:00

Wow.

Ian: 42:00

And when we got to cruising altitude at 6,000 feet, it was about minus 36. And the Chinook has a heater in it, but it's not a pressurized cabin by any means. It's not it, the, the heater is just to take the edge off. Yeah. And it stops taking the edge off at about minus 10.

Ian: 42:21

So a seven hour transit going from Petawawa to Thunder Bay to Pickle Lake. We we actually had to set a timer between the, the other pilot and I, where we would set a ten minute timer so that one of us could fly for ten minutes and the other one could sit on their hands for ten minutes and

Bryan: 42:38

Oh my gosh.

Ian: 42:39

Try to get some feeling back in their fingers. So that that was a a really unique challenge to be able to be exposed to those kind of conditions.

Bryan: 42:48

Are you, like, fully kitted up in we call, you know, we call it the bunny pants, the snow pants, and everything.

Ian: 42:54

Oh, yeah. Every every layer I could think of.

Bryan: 42:57

Yeah.

Ian: 42:57

Cut two two two sets of gloves, the the balaclava under the helmet to make sure that

Bryan: 43:02

Oh my gosh.

Ian: 43:02

The face wasn't freezing up. That's crazy. Was a it it was definitely a definitely experience.

Bryan: 43:09

So this was one of the first true cold weather tests for the Chinook. How did it perform and what lessons were learned?

Ian: 43:15

Chinook performed amazingly.

Bryan: 43:17

Yeah.

Ian: 43:18

We did we did find that it it is a very advanced digital system, right? So it has a lot of digital components, electrical components in the in the aircraft. So we did have to come up with some creative ways of being able to preheat those screens. Like an LCD screen doesn't just turn on when it's minus 30 outside. So you've got to do a little bit of work to make sure that you're not trying to start things from cold.

Ian: 43:45

There's a couple of mechanical assemblies the engines that are critical to being able to start the engines properly. So we make sure that we've got the right heat on those components before we try to actually start them for real. We definitely recognize the limitations of the internal heater in the Chinook. Yeah. Don't count on it being effective even when it is turned on to max.

Ian: 44:11

But the other thing we learned too is how to operate in those environments and understanding what support requirements were needed. So operating from the airfield in Pickle Lake, mean, was cold enough that they had trouble getting the fuel truck started.

Bryan: 44:26

Oh, wow.

Ian: 44:26

So now how do you, what's your contingency involved if they can't actually get a fuel truck over to the aircraft to be able to fuel? Can you get a Chinook down to a fuel cabinet to be able to overwing 7,000 liters of fuel into a Chinook? How long does that take?

Bryan: 44:46

But no Like, you gravity feed it, basically?

Ian: 44:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan: 44:49

Oh, wow.

Ian: 44:50

It takes about six and a half hours if you were wondering.

Bryan: 44:53

I was gonna say that's that's a process.

Ian: 44:55

Yeah. It's a it's it's definitely not the ideal solution.

Bryan: 44:59

Yeah. When you when you lose the capability to pressure fuel, you're in for some long delays.

Ian: 45:04

Yeah. Yeah. It was it was definitely learning experience for the for the crews and technicians though too. Right? Yeah.

Ian: 45:09

So how do you how do you have your work rest cycle so that you can actually function in the, in those conditions? How do you make sure that your personal equipment is safe and effective for you? Yeah. Instead of leaving it out in the cold? Yeah.

Ian: 45:23

So making sure it's, it's, it's in a it's in a warm, dry place so that when you put it on, it still functions normally for you.

Bryan: 45:29

Yeah. And and and, like, for the ground crew, you know, making sure that they stay safe and don't end up with, like, cold weather injuries and things like that.

Ian: 45:36

Yeah. Making sure that they're you've got appropriate work rest cycles, making sure that we what what things can we do as a crew? So can we make sure that, hey, can we fuel the aircraft as soon as we land so that the aircraft is still relatively warm when we're doing it instead of waiting to fuel in the morning? Can we do some maintenance activities while the APU is running so that we have a somewhat warm aircraft to be able to conduct those activities immediately after landing instead of having to wait, shut down, go back a couple hours later like we might do in a normal routine.

Bryan: 46:08

Right. And and just for listeners, APU is auxiliary power unit. It's just a generator that runs on a small. Is it I assume, is it a turbine on the Chinook?

Ian: 46:17

Yep. Yeah. It's a it's it's a small gen engine in the back of the aircraft that Yeah. Helps us run all of our systems without having to turn the engines on.

Bryan: 46:24

Yeah. So you also took part in the mountain flying course the 2016. I've heard that this course is an absolute blast. How did you enjoy it?

Ian: 46:35

Mountain flying course is probably one of the best courses I've ever done in the military.

Bryan: 46:40

Yeah. That's what I always hear.

Ian: 46:42

Yeah. It's it's it's a beautiful location, Penticton, British Columbia. Flying it's with, with Canadian helicopters is is contracted to provide the support to the CAF. So we fly their civilian helicopters with their civilian instructors in the Okanagan Valley in the Rocky Mountains, kind of on their schedule to learn how weather effects can change in the mountains and how it affects helicopter operations. So it's actually really, really valuable training, to be able to actually go up to 8,000, 10,000, 12,000 feet in a helicopter and be able to see what what winds do at that altitude, to be able to go into a circle or a bowl and realize, okay, what what happens in a strong updraft?

Ian: 47:32

What happens in a strong downdraft? Where where can I be? Where is it safe to be? Where is it especially where is it not safe to be? Yeah.

Ian: 47:39

What are your safe approaches or unsafe approaches when you're coming up to a barrier, with strong winds, either at altitude or not at altitude? Learning some of those, aerodynamic effects such as the boundary layer and how to make sure that you're in a safe regime of flight no matter where you are. Because it's wild when you actually understand within specifically within helicopters, but the aerodynamic differences between, an updraft of 10,000 feet can almost make it feel like you're flying at sea level, whereas a downdraft of 10,000 feet and finding some turbulent air could be, it could be enough to knock you out the sky. Right. So how do you actually, expose yourself to that in a safe environment before you go in there with a Chinook full of a platoon of troops in the back.

Ian: 48:32

Right? Yeah. So it's really, really valuable training, but it's, but it's also just a really cool course and a really cool opportunity to be able to go fly. I think I I did most of my course on an A Star. So I was on an AS350 flying about forty hours in the in the Rocky Mountains for a month in 2016, which was

Bryan: 48:51

really awesome. Yeah. So unfortunately, in 02/2016, the Fort McMurray, Alberta area suffered massive damage from wildfires resulting in widespread evacuations and triggering Oplentis, the CAF's response to natural disasters in Canada. You took part in these evacuations. What were conditions like in Fort Mac and had you ever seen anything like it?

Ian: 49:13

Yeah. Fort McMurray was a terrible tragedy that occurred in 2016. And we got a call one day that we were being asked to provide a Chinook to support. Was a really quick turnaround to get a Chinook out to that part of the country. At that time, I don't think we had yet declared FOC full operational capability with the Chinook yet.

Ian: 49:44

So we weren't on any sort of readiness posture or standby posture. But we got asked to go out and do whatever we could to support out there. So we took one Chinook, flew it pretty quickly across the country and arrived in Fort McMurray. I want to say it was about ten hours after the fire. It actually burned across the airfield.

Ian: 50:05

When we landed on the airfield, there was still, you could still see some smoke and some steam coming up from different sections of the infield on Fort Mac Airport and the tree line behind it. So we were staged there with a bunch of other civilian firefighting agencies that were out there in support. Our primary task was to be prepared to move troops and equipment to any areas that have been cut off by the wildfire. So if the wildfire was to continue to burn across the major highways there and folks were going to become isolated, were there postured to be able to provide response for evacuations, to areas that didn't have an airfield. Luckily, it never got to that point.

Ian: 50:51

So we didn't end up having to do any specific evacuations while we were there, but we were able to provide a few pallets of equipment. I remember it, food, water, basic toiletries, hygiene supplies. We had about three full pallets of it stuffed into the back of a Chinook that we were able to fly up north to one of the northern communities that, was not fully cut off, but was isolated enough that they actually couldn't get any equipment in by road.

Bryan: 51:21

Okay.

Ian: 51:22

So on, it was at Fort Mac Airfield. We did a cross load from a C one thirty that came in, dumped a bunch of pallets for us. We loaded into the back of a Chinook and we flew it about an hour and a half north to one of the northern communities and dropped it off there. I think that was the first time that the Chinook had ever been used in an actual force employment role for a for a domestic operation like that for an Aplentist.

Bryan: 51:48

So with that being the first force employment role domestically, were there any big lessons learned? Like, did it perform, well in the conditions of a wildfire?

Ian: 51:58

Yeah. Surprisingly, the the Chinooks have it's a super capable aircraft. So being able we were able to get up to altitude nine, ten thousand feet, to be able to get over some of the some of the worst smoke that we were facing without any real issues. Operating in the vicinity of the wildfire, we had additional capabilities like the EOIR, the electro optic infrared camera that was mounted on the front nose. Its IR capabilities were able to actually see through the smoke to be able to pick up hotspots in the wildfire.

Ian: 52:29

So even in low visibility operations, we were able to use that to help mark a path through the AO. And we were able to actually pick up some of the hotspots that we're that we're seeing on the ground and be able to relay that information back to, to help our wildfires, as we're flying around the AO.

Bryan: 52:48

So this next one brings back great memories for me as I was at RIMPAC in Hawaii in the 2016 as well. However, while I was hunting submarines with The US and multinational navies, you were embedded with the US Marine Corps to conduct brigade level amphibious assaults, including shipborne operations. First of all, how big is a brigade, and how many aircraft and ground troops are involved?

Ian: 53:11

To your first question, a brigade by doctrine is about a thousand to 1,200 troops that you're looking for. So a, a grade level amphibious assault is a is a pretty big effort to move a whole bunch of people from location on a ship to a location inland. It was one of the first opportunities I had to work with the, with the US Marine Corps. It was absolutely a phenomenal experience. The US Marines remind just their, their cultural, the size, the way they integrate their elements actually reminds me a lot of the Canadian Armed Forces in terms of how they function and how they, how they manage their assets.

Ian: 53:52

The the aviators that we worked with, super professional, a phenomenal group of people. But what we're doing there, RIMPAC is mostly kind of like, if most people think of RIMPAC, they think of Hawaii, big Blue water, like Navy naval operations, out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Yeah. This specific element or impact, in Southern California was combined with a, ground force element. So we were there, embedded with the marine assets to be able to do that amphibious, aerosol.

Ian: 54:26

And it was also our opportunity to take the Chinook, and for the first time, be able to land it on a on a ship. We're actually doing maneuvers with the, with the USS Pearl Harbor while we were down there.

Bryan: 54:37

And sorry. You said you were in Southern California?

Ian: 54:40

Yeah. We were at, based out of Camp Pendleton.

Bryan: 54:43

Okay.

Ian: 54:43

So we were we were actually we were just North Of San Diego on the on the West Coast Of California doing maneuvers with the with the Marine Corps that was there. So we didn't actually end up pushing out to why we just transited the aircraft, down the West Coast to be able to support from there.

Bryan: 54:59

Okay.

Ian: 54:59

The exercise we were doing with the Marines in California was actually pushing. It was a simulated amphibious exercise because they obviously didn't have the troops at that time mounted onto the ships. But we took them from simulated landing pads, in about 100 miles inland, to a training area that they had there. But it was a full brigade assault onto a target. So we were one or two Chinooks embedded in a formation that had there were probably about six V-twenty two Ospreys.

Ian: 55:32

There were six or seven CH-fifty three, Super Stallion aircraft.

Bryan: 55:37

Wow. Those are huge.

Ian: 55:39

About a dozen, Uh-one, the Hueys and the, the Cobra attack helicopters.

Bryan: 55:47

Wow.

Ian: 55:48

That were embedded. So it was another large scale kind of international multinational formation, that we just got to play our small part in, but getting to see the Marine Corps planning work within their planning process, be an effective element within the lift assets there. So directly information with the CH-53s, another really cool experience to kind of show off the capabilities of the CH 47.

Bryan: 56:16

Wow. That sounds awesome. So you attended your advanced tactical aviation course or ATAC in the 2017, qualified qualifying as a tactical aviation air mission commander for large scale multinational operations. What did this course consist of, and what does this mean in a nutshell?

Ian: 56:34

We talked earlier about, B TAC and the basic tactical aviation course. So ATAC is the the next logical progression, for the the the one wing kind of mission commanders. So this now is, is designed for pilots and crews to be able to, lead formations of scale. So now instead of just worrying about your section, now you're doing kind of multi type, so we call it mixed MDS, multi nation complex within the weapons engagement range of the enemy, now leading the planning and execution of those large scale tasks. So that's what ATAC is really geared toward.

Ian: 57:26

We only run it right now once every two years. So it's a pretty sought after qualification in one wing for the for the most experienced aviators that we have. It's, again, very demanding training. But it allows us to be able to operate in the combat environments where we're going to go. As I said before, we are never going to be operating in an environment where we are alone as Canadians.

Ian: 57:56

And if we are, it's not at the same scale, but we don't have the capacity to own the airspace. If you think about how things are functioning in Eastern Europe right now, NATO owns the mission. Canada is providing a brigade and an aviation battalion to the multinational brigade that's in Latvia. But realistically, when you're operating in Eastern Europe, that's a NATO led mission, with NATO controlled airspace, with NATO assets. And we're never gonna be operating just as a Canadian contingent.

Ian: 58:31

We always have to be able to work with our, multinational partners to be able to to achieve those aims, and and we have to be able to do it at scale. Yeah. And if if if you want to have a combat capability, a combat capability isn't isn't two Chinooks. Two Chinooks is an answer to a tactical question, not a complex problem.

Bryan: 58:51

Right.

Ian: 58:53

So when we're running through the course, the course consists of some advanced handling techniques. So we work on some, call it DACM, the defensive aerial combat maneuvering. That's basically dogfighting, right? Yep. At helicopter level, both for the exposure to how to operate the aircraft at the limits of its performance envelope and also to give you a frame of reference for how to work inside a complex airspace.

Ian: 59:23

So we do that training with fast jet trainers. So I had the opportunity to actually fly against F-18s and see what we look like on their radar, have them try to target us, try to break that engagement with them to know what that looks like in time and space. Then we move on to to complex mission sets. And some of the things we cover in there, like, large scale air mobile operations, some advanced tasks like SCAR strike coordination and reconnaissance for the, for the Griffin pilots, personnel recovery, downed aircraft scenarios, any of those complex mission sets that you may be exposed to in a in an operating environment, that will involve several aircraft and several agencies to be able to pull it together. And we do this training with, live ground forces with live air forces.

Ian: 01:00:19

So we've had both top bases and, and four wing and support doing those exercises. So it's it's a it's a it's a culminating exercise for for one wing because we'll actually do all of we'll bring all of the training that we do during the year together. We'll push FARPs out. We'll work

Bryan: 01:00:37

What's a FARP again?

Ian: 01:00:38

Oh, sorry. A forward arming and refueling point. Right. So we'll be able to to push troops into the field to be able to set up a forward arming and refueling point to be able to leverage those assets just like we would in a combat environment. Working with our partners in the air force, trying to work under fast air.

Ian: 01:01:02

So working with, working with the f eighteen community to see how they operate, and and what it's like to integrate yourself into, the 30,000 foot fight when you're operating at 30 feet.

Bryan: 01:01:14

Right.

Ian: 01:01:14

So it's it's it's actually a bit of a whole whole of air force training activity that that One Wing puts on for that. It's it's really valuable training.

Bryan: 01:01:23

And it kind of shows you why the course only runs every couple years when you have that perspective of the amount of assets involved and units involved across, the air force and the army.

Ian: 01:01:36

Yeah. And we have to be able to fit it into the to the training cycle too. Right? So Yeah. We we're we're never just out there doing it on our own.

Ian: 01:01:44

But when we are, it's not it's not at that kind of scale.

Bryan: 01:01:46

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So I'm really jealous of this next one. It must have been a highlight for you.

Bryan: 01:01:52

You attended the Royal International Air Tattoo or Riyadh in The UK in the 2017. Can you describe how you get a Chinook to The UK and outline the training opportunities you had with the RAF Chinook squadrons?

Ian: 01:02:04

Yeah. That, RIAT twenty seventeen was a was definitely, definitely a highlight. We were able to do it in conjunction with, with the celebration of the the hundredth anniversary of, Vimy Ridge and the Battle of Vimy Ridge.

Bryan: 01:02:20

Wow.

Ian: 01:02:21

So we to get the Chinook over to The UK, we ended up packing it into, into the back of a C 17. So it turns out the Chinook fits per one Chinook fits perfectly into the back of one C 17. If you do some hard work to pull the pylons off, take take the rotor blades off, stuff them inside the Chinook. But once once you do a little bit of maintenance to deconfigure the the helicopter, rolls on the back of a c 17, and we ended up taking a c 17 from Trenton over to Brysnorth, where we then put the helicopter back together, which was how I got to go. Because in order to put the helicopter back together, you need a maintenance test pilot.

Ian: 01:03:01

And I had the maintenance test pilot qualification to be able to do it. So once we got that aircraft back together, we, we moved it down to RAF Odium, which is the main Chinook base for the Royal Air Force, just on the West Side Of London. And we got to we got to do some joint training with, with eighteen Squadron there.

Bryan: 01:03:23

Man, that sounds amazing. Listeners, if you haven't heard of Riyadh, look it up. It's just like it's kind of like Oshkosh in terms of its fame and size and the incredible amount of aircraft you can see.

Ian: 01:03:39

You're right. The number of military aircraft that are there was astounding. They they had absolutely everything. We It was kind of fun. We were parked next to a B1.

Ian: 01:03:49

Oh, wow. That was on one side and on the other side was a Ukrainian SC27. So it was kind of Ukraine, Canada, US all kind of together in their own corner. And I I don't wanna say we stole the show, but there were a lot of, a lot of static display visitors that ended up in our corner of the airfield for I bet. For a bunch of that.

Bryan: 01:04:10

Yeah. Yeah. Those are two kind of like the all time air shows that I want to attend at some point in my life is Oshkosh and Riyadh. So that's awesome that you got a chance to go to that.

Ian: 01:04:19

Yeah. It was a lot of fun. The the other opportunity we got while we were there while we were working with with the Royal Air Force was to actually take a take an aircraft with them. So we took one of the RAF Chinooks and our Chinook that was there. We're able to fly it through London and then across the channel.

Ian: 01:04:36

And we flew the North Coast Of France and into Vimy Ridge. Actually we were able to do fly pass and a couple of pictures over Vimy Ridge to celebrate the one hundredth anniversary of the battle. And then we flew the Normandy Coast on the way back. So actually got to overfly the Normandy Coast at 500 feet, look down on some of the different historical sites on Normandy before we flew back across the channel and came home.

Bryan: 01:04:59

Wow. That's an epic flight. Yep. So we've heard in your bio that you were eventually posted to Fort Bragg, North Carolina to serve with the eighty second Airborne Division and witness the eventual fall of Afghanistan, and that will be the subject of another two part series we'll be doing in the future. But the last thing you did before you left was attend the army operations course or AOC.

Bryan: 01:05:20

I've heard from Aurora compatriots that it is a long and difficult course. I wonder how it was for you coming from the tac hell world.

Ian: 01:05:28

Long and difficult, but thoroughly enjoyable and very rewarding. Being in being in the TACHEL community, we we make a point of always sending students on the army operations course, a to make sure that we can speak the same same language as the people that we're supporting, but B, to make sure that the army gets to know us as well, right?

Bryan: 01:05:52

Yeah.

Ian: 01:05:52

We want to make sure that we have the opportunity for them to understand what we as tactical aviators do and how we benefit their mission and how we work to support them. The college in Kingston, the Canadian Army Command and Staff College that's down in Kingston is one of kind of the best run most professional military institutions that I've had the pleasure of seeing. And the course content and what they do to show you the operational planning process from a brigade level and actually kind of put you in the mind of a decision maker to brigade level as a mid level captain to be able to give you that exposure to what operational planning looks like and to give you that broader perspective of what army operations are. And again, how you're integrating into the joint force, how you're integrating into the the bigger scheme of maneuver of operations is really, really valuable training. And to tie it back to the last conversation we had, it's the relationships too.

Ian: 01:07:03

Yeah. So building relationships on those courses and getting to the know people you're going to be working with in the future. I now have, members that I was on that course with members who sat beside me in the classroom. Several years later, I had one who was the ground force commander for an element that was supporting our ATAC course in 2023. Another, just took battalion command in one of the battalions in Petawawa.

Ian: 01:07:40

So now, we've got that network of relationships where we can still work together but know each other on a personal level and have the same foundational training to make sure that we're speaking the same language as we're moving forward in training our operations together.

Bryan: 01:07:55

Mhmm. And it's key to be able to like leverage those personal connections as you go forward when you need to facilitate different training and things like that. Like, it it comes in handy.

Ian: 01:08:04

Oh, a 100%. As as big as this country is, it is a very small calf, you will you will continue to cross paths with with, with people that you train with.

Bryan: 01:08:14

Yeah. 100%. Okay, Ian. That wraps up our two part chat today. I really enjoyed hearing about your time surfing with four fifty Tac Hell Squadron, and I also enjoyed hearing about your time in training in the first episode.

Bryan: 01:08:27

I'm really, really excited to getting together again in the future to talk about your time with eighty second Airborne Division and particularly your time in Afghanistan as things came to a close there. So thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate you giving us a bunch of your time. I know you are a busy guy. And, yeah, thank you for being here.

Ian: 01:08:46

Thanks, Brian. It's been a pleasure.

Bryan: 01:08:48

Okay. That wraps up our two part series talking to major Ian Wookie and his experiences flying the CH one forty seven f Chinook with four fifty tactical helicopter squadron. Tune in to our next episode for a special two part Remembrance Day series featuring a veteran, major Bob Wade, who flew fighter jets during the Cold War and was the first Western pilot to fly in a MiG 29. Do have you any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?

Bryan: 01:09:18

You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.

Bryan: 01:09:43

Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.