Episode 77: The Veteran Series: Cold War Remembrance and the famous flight in the MiG-29 Part 2 - Bob Wade
This podcast is presented by Skies Magazine. If you're interested in the Canadian aviation industry, Skies is your go to multimedia resource for the latest news, in-depth features, stunning photography, and insightful video coverage. Whether you're an aviation professional or enthusiast, Sky's is dedicated to keeping you informed and bringing your passion for aviation to life. Visit skysmag.com to learn more and subscribe to stay updated on all things Canadian aviation.
Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today for the second of our special two part Remembrance Day series is a legendary figure in Canadian aviation circles, major retired Bob Wade, a former snowbird and Cold War fighter pilot, and the first Western pilot to fly in a MiG 29. Bob, welcome once again to the show and thank you so much for being here today.
Bob:Thank you, Brian. My pleasure.
Bryan:Listeners can check out part one to hear about how Bob joined the CAF and his days on the Tutor and Starfighter. Today, we will be talking about Bob's time on the c f 18, his adventure flying a MiG 29, and his transition to civilian flying, and how he still connects with his time in the CAF. So at the end of part one, we had kinda left it at your time flying CF one zero fours in Europe, in Germany. You did come back to Cold Lake and start instructing on CF one zero fours. Correct?
Bob:That's correct. When I I was five years in Europe, and my posting after that was onto the starfighter as an instructor at four seventeen squadron in Cold Lake.
Bryan:And then eventually, the CF one zero four starfighters were being retired with the arrival of the CF 18 Hornet. Right? And you learned that you'd be instructing on these new jets?
Bob:That's correct. Yes. We were winding up the program as the f 18 came in, and first two airplanes arrived in October 1982. And we were getting two airplanes a month after that. So the initial stand up was just giving the guys an opportunity to learn how to fly the airplane.
Bob:And I was still instructing on the last course of one of four pilots in Cold Lake going overseas. And they told me I would be moved over to instruct on the CF-eighteen once the squadron stands up. And so that we did that. At the end of the one zero four program, we actually flew 12 airplanes, 12 104s to Europe through Greenland, Iceland, over to Scotland, then down to Bodden. So that was quite an adventure to finish up a career on that starfighter.
Bob:And then when I got back from that mission, I went over to four ten Squadron in Cold Lake to, instruct on that airplane. Now initially, we didn't have enough airplanes to, take on a student course. So that first year, we, just developed tactics to learn how to fight the airplane. The United States Navy was receiving them at the same time, so nobody had any tactical experience as to how to employ that fighter. And, we developed a syllabus.
Bob:I ran the, ground attack syllabus. Other boys developed the, air defense syllabus, and we have various backgrounds that were posted into four ten squadrons. So some of the guys were off Voodoo's f fives and as a starfighter. And we didn't have weapons that employed the smart technology, so we're actually dropping bombs the same way we did with the one zero four. The difference was the CF-eighteen had a CCIP, continuous computing impact point, displayed in the heads up display.
Bob:So that rather than having to, have the, pilot hit an exact dive angle with an exact airspeed and exact release point, on the ground at an offset for wind when you release the weapon, that airplane did it all for you. So that considerably helped helped the students learn to do that ground attack role. And once we'd gone through that, we wrote the syllabus for the students. We got students a year later, and we ran the first course. Now those courses were comprised of a whole squadron.
Bob:So every nine months, we're standing up a new squadron. We're taking 28 pilots through on a course at a time. It was a busy busy time to be flying the f 18. And we were quite excited to have that jet. I was a little disappointed with its lack of power after coming off a starfighter.
Bob:And so that, it didn't, wanna go high speed, low altitude, because of the large wing. It, was very rough down low altitude, whereas a starfighter was like Cadillac down there. It was so so smooth at high speed and low level. So that, there were some differences, but, in reality, it did a better job than the, than the starfighter did because he could carry more weapons. We could carry 10 mark eighty two five hundred pound bombs.
Bob:And in those days, all our mark 80 twos were high drag. Because we're releasing them from 200 feet above the target, we didn't want that bomb detonating right underneath us. So when the bomb came off the airplane, fins deployed on the back of the bomb to retard it so that it detonated well behind your your aircraft. And nowadays, of course, they don't have to do that. Their smart weapons are laser guided or GPS guided, and so that you can release, those weapons from high altitude and get great accuracy.
Bob:But back in the early days, we were just employed like, we did with the, starfighter and f five. In the air defense role, it was a huge jump in technology from the earlier, CF one zero one voodoo. And so that those boys did a remarkable job at setting up that program to teach students how to do air intercepts, air defense. And we were gunfighters. We didn't figure that we had enough missiles or the missiles were good enough to avoid us having to gunfight.
Bob:So that, in those days, the Warsaw Pact, outnumber nine to one in the air, you know, so that we didn't have enough weapons to take them all out unless we used our gun. And that f 18 was about the best gunfighter in the sky because it had no angle of attack limit. So that, the f fifteens, f sixteens that came online before the f 18 were limited to 25 degrees angle of attack. So they couldn't maneuver at really low speeds like an f 18 could. And so that, a good gunfight was, two f sixteens against one of us and an f 18, you know, because we had so much more turn capability and and the ability to operate that high angles of attack.
Bob:We could do intercepts, and the boys set it up so they were, doing stern conversions the same as what they did in the voodoo, where you would offset from the target and then at a certain point, turn to roll out in the stern of that target. And that came out to be a problem because if that radar is supposed to drop a radar, if you got into the beam on your target and it didn't sense movement, well, then it went into prediction mode. And we had we lost one of the students on that first course because, he started chasing this prediction of where the target was, got into a steep dive, hit the ground. Oh. Know, You so we had to revise the syllabus from that to make it a visual environment where they're doing it.
Bob:They could no longer students could no longer do that in cloud. And so that was a lesson well learned. Unfortunately, we lost a young fella while he went through that transition.
Bryan:How did it feel personally for you to transition from the starfighter to the Hornet after putting in so much time on starfighters?
Bob:I was, excited to fly the f 18 because it was new technology. Everything's ran by a computer. We had no computers on the, Starfighter. You could take your helmet off in in flight, and it was quiet inside the cockpit. Whereas the f 18, you take your helmet off, it's noisy because of all the computers running all the systems type of thing.
Bob:And it would do so much more. I could track 12 targets at one time, you know? And whereas the f or the Voodoo Boys couldn't do that with their airplane. So it's a huge jump in technology. I love that about the airplane, but it didn't didn't go fast like a starfighter.
Bob:You know, I've had it up to 1.65, but it took forever to get there, burned a lot of fuel to get there. But in reality, you didn't have to go Mach 1.7, you know, in that airplane because you had missiles that did four times the speed of sound. And I didn't have to chase anybody down. Those missiles would do that job for me. And so that that was just awesome to see that happen.
Bryan:You mentioned that you had to try to learn to use the Hornet in combat before the students arrived so that they could learn from you. How did this process go, and do you think that it's a similar process to what many instructors will have to do in the coming years as all these new fleets come online?
Bob:They'll go through the same process with the f 35 when it arrives and because it's different technology again. Mhmm. Now I don't know much about the f 35 because I don't have a security clearance. But one of the students on my first course at four ten squadron was Billy Flynn. Billy became the chief test pilot on that f 35 program.
Bob:So talking to Billy, you know, it's a pretty impressive airplane, but it does so much more than what the f 18 would do. And so that I don't understand, what it does, and, Billy, of course, couldn't tell me it's all classified. And so that I take his word for it that it's the best fighter in the sky today. So those boys are gonna have to go through that same process to learn how to fight that airplane, how to employ it tactically.
Bryan:Yeah. I do see I follow Billy Flynn on, Facebook. And actually, one day, I'd love to have him on the show. But, he's obviously very, very, positive about the f 35, that it is the jet for the job and that Canada's doing the right thing and sticking with it.
Bob:Yeah. And, well, Billy's a company pilot, so naturally, he's gonna promote the airplane. Yeah. But, you know, I look at the last, what, 15 countries that have replaced their fighter aircraft have all bought the f 35. They can't all be wrong.
Bob:And the other factor is that, especially in NORAD, they don't want you there with an f 18 if they're flying f 30 fives because you're just highlighting their formations. You can't communicate and, and work with the f 35 because you don't have that technology.
Bryan:Yeah. That's right. Interoperability becomes the, paramount concern.
Bob:Huge. Yeah. And, most of, NATO and NORAD will be flying the f 35.
Bryan:That's right. So after a little while, you were selected as the CF 18 demo pilot. That was in 1986. What was the public opinion like on the Hornet at that time?
Bob:We were getting a lot of bad press because we had been, we paid a lot of money. And I think it was, 35,000,000 per aircraft, that we bought. We bought a 138 of them. And the media took the attitude that, well, you're buying an airplane built for the United States Navy to fly off aircraft carriers, and you're trying to make it apply to, our requirements, here in North America. And, why would you do that?
Bob:And, I did an interview, when I was doing air shows, and I did an air show in Toronto, I did a CBC interview. And, that boy, he just threw question after question, you know, why why would we buy an airplane like that? You know? And we'd had three accidents, fatal accidents. You know?
Bob:Was it the airplane's fault? You know? And this type of thing when it wasn't. Yeah. Those were all pilot air accidents.
Bryan:They usually are.
Bob:Yeah. Yeah. And they, were very negative on that airplane. But I was able to explain to them that the government of Canada gives the Air Force a mandate that they are to achieve in defense of North America and their commitments worldwide. And the f 18 was the best jet available to meet those requirements.
Bob:And, as it turned out, we needed that carrier capability because, I ran a forward operating location out of Aduvik, which had a 5,900 foot runway. And it's icy up there in the wintertime. And the only way we could, operate safely was to bring in mobile arrestor gear, which is cable across the approach end of the runway with trap on every landing like you do on a carrier. A little bit easier than, going on a carrier because the the landing pad is not shifting up and down 20 feet or so. But, we never had an airplane leave the runway, you know, so, it was a good way.
Bob:And I could get all six of my jets down in about ten minutes. So it was a very fast system that that worked for us. If we didn't have an f 18, we couldn't have operated in the in the Arctic. There was no infrastructure up north at that time. So we're living in hotels downtown, and they flew in all the infrastructure we needed to operate every time we deployed into a newbie.
Bob:So having a navy jet was valuable to us.
Bryan:Yeah. How did you end up being the f 18 air demonstration pilot? You were not the first, right, but one of the first.
Bob:Then I had two pilots, do that before me in, '84 and '85. Then, what they decided to do because these squadrons were so busy, you know, four two five squadron down in Baggyville just standing up, and they're trying to get everybody combat ready. And, us as four ten squadron in Cold Lake, there were no other operational squadrons in Cold Lake then. We were busy pumping out 28 students every nine months. You know?
Bob:It was a busy time. And so what they decided to do is they'd have one pilot from four two five squadron in Vacaville do all the shows in Western North or in Eastern North America, and, Cold Lake would do all the shows in the Western Part of North America. And so that they asked me if I'd do that, and I said, sure. You know, I I like doing air shows. And Tristan DeConnick was my partner out of Bag Endville that year.
Bob:And unfortunately, Tristan killed himself on, departure out of, Summerside, on his first show.
Bryan:Oh, no.
Bob:Yeah. That was such a tragedy. And, again, you know, pilot error, but, the f 18, because you fly through a HUD, it gets really easy to get disorientated when you're doing aerobatics, he got into cloud and pulled it into the ground. So what they did, what they decided to do is they'd make me the demo pilot for all of North America that year. And I did 56 shows that year, and my show was very aggressive.
Bob:Because we were getting all this bad press, I wanted the demonstrate the total capability of that airplane. And because it had such great turn performance, I could keep it on stage for the whole show, twelve minute show. And all my turnarounds were done in the vertical. So you watch guys at shows today, they're doing their turnarounds horizontal to the ground, and so that they'll do their pass on stage, and then they'll have to turn around, and there's typically 40 to a minute before they get back on stage again. I never left center stage, you know, because as soon as I finished that maneuver, I would pull at six g up to 70 degrees nose up, do one and a half rolls, top out at an altitude, and then pull it through back out to center stage, you know, to do the next maneuver.
Bob:And when you're doing air shows, time on stage is what it's all about. Okay. So that, the public's not watching you when you're out there turning around for that, you know, for over half the time of the show, you're off stage. And so the the public ate that up, but it was very aggressive. And early in that spring, I did a show down in where was that?
Bob:I did show Trenton, Ontario is where it was. And, the chief of defense staff was there. And he saw my show, and he thought it was too aggressive. It was unsafe. And so he grounded me.
Bob:And so that commander of fighter group didn't agree with him, and he wrote me and said, hey. Give me your margin of error on every every maneuver. And so I did. I sent the message back down to Fighter Group, and they said, well, go ahead. My next show was in Vanderhoef, BC.
Bob:He says, go ahead and do that show unless you hear from us. Well, I didn't hear anything, so they changed Terrio's mind. The CDS changed his mind. Said, okay. See, Theriot's big deal was it wasn't politic to upstage the f 15 and f 16 so badly.
Bob:But those boys didn't have a 25. They had 25 alpha limits on their jets. They couldn't do what I could do.
Bryan:And for the listeners, just a quick note on what alpha means. Alpha stands for angle of attack. And without getting too technical, it's a key performance limitation, and it is the angle between the wing and the relative airflow.
Bob:I did a takeoff loop. I've never seen a takeoff loop done by any aircraft before. And that was done because I wanted to demonstrate the thrust to weight capability of that airplane. And because I was an instructor in Moosh Dong, I learned how to do this stuff by having exact altitudes, I never had any fear of not being able to make a pullout to miss the ground. So that when I did the workup to the show, I took the airplane from 300 knots, rolled it on its back, and pulled it through at max pull through, and I lost 1,600 feet of altitude on that pull through.
Bob:So I decided then, okay, the tops of all my, looping maneuvers will be 3,200 feet. So I had an extra 1,600 feet to play with. Plus, I made my loops round. They weren't like we did in Moose Jaw where you pull up and use the same amount of g all the way through the thing so that it looks more like a big l shaped type of maneuver rather than a round loop. So I would push that.
Bob:So I had the exact altitude on every pull through. I had the exact airspeed on every pull through. And so those disciplines we learned back in Moose Jaw proved to be very valuable. So they thought you know, I've heard guys say it's dangerous. There's nothing dangerous about that.
Bob:You know? I felt very comfortable. And I designed my show so that, I would never have to do the level rolls into the sun. Now because I was flying in F-eighteen, I was normally near the end of the show or closing the show where the Sun gets low on the horizon. You never want to be doing level rolls into that Sun.
Bob:So what I did is I designed it for an air airborne arrival where I'd do a cloverleaf. I'd run straight at the crowd and then pull up and then do a cloverleaf one direction or another, so that I knew my level of roles would be away from the sun. So that's another design capability that kept it safe. And the airplane will roll at seven twenty degrees a second, but you're only allowed one roll at aileron deflection. So that's what I would do is roll at 400 degrees per second type of thing.
Bob:So depending on the length of the show line and the crowd, I would, do five or six level rolls, and I never brought my nose up to initiate the roll. I maintained level flight by pushing it each time I hit the, inverted position. So they were actually level level rolls. And, you don't see that anymore either. You know?
Bob:So and it's mostly a lack of experience from the kids nowadays. And then I wanted to show the maximum pitch rate of that airplane, and so that we did a square loop. And the boys that did it two years before me, they were doing square loops as well. But each corner is square, and I pull it right up to 70 alpha. You know, it had turned lots of vapor onto the wings that looked impressive.
Bob:But it showed you the maximum pitch rates of the airplane. And then, I wanted to show the slow speed capability of the airplane so that, I did, actually, I did a high speed three sixty first. That aircraft will turn at 32 degrees per second, which I'm sure the f 35 will do as well. But that meant that you can do a 360 degree turn in, about 11 in eleven seconds. You know?
Bob:And that was done at corner velocity three twenty five knots, and that was done at eight g. Okay? So it was pretty impressive. You know, the the crowd loved that, to be able to see an airplane sustained eight g's through a 360 degree turn, and do that in twelve seconds. Again, I haven't seen that done now.
Bob:The guys demoing now are running twenty five, thirty seconds to do that 360 degree turn. And then coming out of that, I would wanna do a high alpha 360 degree turn. And I knew from my one zero four days, you never bring your power back below 90 when you're in that low level environment. When you need power, you need it fast.
Bryan:Listeners might be wondering what needing power fast has to do with not retarding your power below 90%. On a jet engine, when you apply power from a low power setting, there's a spool up time before the engine actually provides max power. By keeping the engine at a higher RPM, you avoid the spool up time.
Bob:And so that I I got back to the 35 degrees angle of attack by pulling g. Okay. So that's how I decreased airspeed, not by reducing power. And what I determined was that from a 35 degrees angle of attack, if I lose I'm doing that at 300 feet above the ground. When I'm doing that, if I lose an engine, I have power available to climb up with one engine.
Bob:And I practice that a lot of times where, you know, up at higher altitudes, I'd shut down the engine, I'd turn the engine off, one of the engines off, and then throw the other one into the burner. And I'd only lose maybe 50 feet. I never lost more than 50 feet. You know, so I felt very comfortable. If I lose an engine doing that I Alpha Pass, I can climb out.
Bob:And fortunately that never happened to me, so I never had to use it. But it was a design feature that was so adamant, you know, and I see guys bringing back their power now and, you know, that's a mistake. You don't do that loyalty too. And then, out of that 35, alpha 360 degree turn, I laid the burners, and now I'm I'm better than one to one thrust of weight. I could climb up to 3,500 feet from that 35 degree angle of attack and accelerate going climbing up to 70 degrees and all that stuff.
Bob:So it was pretty impressive to see that. Then I just pull it through and do a vertical roll. So, the air show was very effective at demonstrating all the capabilities of that f 18. And when you compared it to other airplanes, it was by far the winner.
Bryan:So just a super high performance show, but with lots of various safety gates built in to make sure that while it was showing off all the performance the f 18 had, it was still safe.
Bob:Very safe. You know, I'd I'd never had any anxiety. I broke broke a flap drive, when I was in Vanderhoof so that all my hard pulls were away from the ground, and so that one flap went down, the other flap stayed up, they're maneuvering flaps. And I couldn't control the roll. I couldn't stop and roll with full stick deflection.
Bob:Okay? And so that I've always wanted to make sure, and especially in that last corner of the square loop, I didn't want to break a flat drive because I couldn't have recovered from that. That was the only part that was questionable. So what I would do on that backside of that square loop, I would start to pull early at low g letting so the flaps would go down, and then I'd bury the stick and make it a square corner.
Bryan:And that's part of, the early days of just getting used to how the fly by wire magic worked. Exactly.
Bob:Yeah. When you, put in a lateral stick to roll the airplane, the computers the flight control computers decide which flight controls they're gonna use. They could use differential flap differential later on, to to meet your demand for roll. But what they were doing was giving you that roll rate that you're demanding with the least amount of drag. Mhmm.
Bob:It was a smart system.
Bryan:So smart that it was hard to understand, I under from what I've heard in the early days.
Bob:Yeah.
Bryan:So let's talk about some of your Cold War ops and NORAD. You you talked about this a little bit, but in 1987, you were posted to the startup of four four one Squadron in Cold Lake as the f 18 took on the NORAD air defense role. You were the squadron ops officer and ran alert operations out of Comox with forward operating locations in Inuvik and Yellowknife. What was life like running alert operations out of Inuvik?
Bob:You know, I loved it. We'd never operated in the Arctic before, and we had no infrastructure up there to support us. In fact, we didn't even have a hangar. We used the atmospheric environmental services hangar up there, which is a government hangar, and they weren't using it much. So when I deployed up there, I could get all six of my jets into that hangar because it's a navy bird.
Bob:The wings folded up. So I had enough room in that hangar to get sick jets inside. What I didn't have was a mule to tow airplanes around. And they never brought one up on the Herc because they're you know, the Hercs were loaded with other equipment, and they didn't have the room to put in a mule. So I went downtown and got a guy with a tractor, and he would deploy with us whenever there was a scramble.
Bob:He'd be there before us, and he could tow airplanes outside with his tractor. So it was a community effort. One day, we broke the, mobile arrestor gear, and the welder came out, from town to do that work and repair the system. He wouldn't take a dime for that. He just wanted to help.
Bob:You know? The people in Anubik were outstanding. We stayed in a hotel downtown. We rented cars from local, dealers. And, it was a huge effort to make that work without any infrastructure, but it worked so well.
Bob:You know? We had no problems really dealing with the roles that we were assigned.
Bryan:In March during the Cold War, the Soviet bear bombers would practice cruise missile attack profiles against North America. What was the atmosphere like during Soviet bomber training flights, and were tensions high during these flights?
Bob:The Soviets were flying their bare bombers across on cruise missile profiles as a matter of routine, generally in the winter months that come through. And we would get advised by NORAD typically a day before this was about to happen. And, we had deployed to Wanuvik, and then they would scramble us, at the appropriate hour so we could do the intercept. Now we were going up to eighty eighty north, you know, so we're going a long ways up there. We were 400, 500 miles away from the nearest airport.
Bob:And we had tanker aircraft that gave us fuel. But because we were so far away from those support airfields, we had to keep topped up in fuel all the time. We flew with a three tank configuration, and you were on that tanker every ten minutes, you know, to keep chalked up because you always had enough fuel to make it to that alternate, normally Elmendorf in Alaska, if somebody ripped the hose off the tanker.
Bryan:Right.
Bob:You know? So that you always carried that amount of fuel onboard the aircraft. And sometimes those missions would be four or five hours long, you know, waiting for that bomber to come through. And then, we'd go and intercept the bomber, dark up there in those times of the year for twenty four hours a day. And, so that we just we had a 16,000,000 cannopower light, on the side of the fuselage.
Bob:We'd throw that light on them just to show them. You boys wanna come for real, we'll get you before you can launch your cruise missiles. And they always reacted by turning around. They didn't continue on. But our rules of engagement were that we couldn't touch them unless they dropped troops or weapons.
Bob:Now if we went on their side of the border, they would shoot at us. You know, their rules of engagement were different than ours. We didn't take fighters North Of 80 North, under an agreement with this, Russians that they wouldn't bring fighters North Of 80 North because we start mixing up fighters, you know, something's gonna happen that you don't want. So that's how those missions were conducted. You'd recover back into Anuvik and go back onto Willard.
Bob:And sometimes you get two scrambles in a day, but generally not every two or three days. You'd be into Anuvik for about a ten, fifteen day period. And those temperatures outside were about 50 below, you know, in in those days. You know? So that it was a big demand on our ground crew.
Bob:And, you know, I have ground crew working with me now that flew with me out of Anuvik, you know, and maintained our airplanes. They always say those were the best three or four years on four four one squadron of their whole careers. The guys loved it, and they did such a remarkable job. And, you bet your life on what they did because you eject up in the High Arctic just twenty four hours before search and rescue can get up to help you. And, that's only a 19 foot shoot, on the ejection seat of an f 18.
Bob:You come down hard. So everybody that's ejected out of the f 18 has been hurt. Yeah. So we know we're gonna be on the ice, and we're gonna be hurt.
Bryan:Wow. So some really, really high stakes flying.
Bob:Yeah. But it was fun. You know, it was a challenge, but you got a lot out of it.
Bryan:Yeah. Now this November, we remember that Canadians have a long history of serving in conflicts and will likely continue to do so. What advice do you have for Canadians who are currently serving or will serve in future global conflicts?
Bob:I think when you know you're going into combat, you wanna be the best version of yourself that you can be, and you don't wanna be afraid. And the way you stop being afraid is to get confident in what you're doing. All my time on fighter aircraft, I never had any fear of going to war. You know? I knew I was better than anybody I was gonna run up against.
Bob:You know? I had advantage. Now if you get into a gunfight with another airplane, one of you is gonna die. You cannot escape a gunfight without getting killed. You know, if you run out of fuel going into that gunfight, you're gonna get killed.
Bob:You know? So it, it was a dangerous environment, but if you felt good about what you do and you practice a lot and you didn't fly afraid, you'd do well. You'd be okay. Wow.
Advertisement:KF Aerospace, Canada's largest MRO and founding partner in Skyline for the future aircrew training program, is proud to be the exclusive North American dealer for the Grove 120TP. The Grove 120TP is a world class training aircraft, combining turbine power, advanced avionics, side by side seating, and full aerobatic capability. Already trusted by the German Air Force, Canada's future aircrew training program, and militaries worldwide, it's built to deliver performance and reliability. With its versatility, the GROBE 120TP is the ideal platform for both military training and civilian programs, including upset recovery training. Go to kfaro.ca, that's kfaero.ca, to learn more and get in touch with us.
Bryan:So I like to shift topics here and talk about a really interesting story. Famously, Soviet MiG 20 nines visited Abbotsford for the air show in 1989. Can you walk us through the day the MiG 20 nines transited Canadian airspace?
Bob:Yeah. Before that started, Brian, the Soviets towards the end of the cold war nineteen eighty nine were going broke, and they recognized that as a problem. And, the West knew that they were having financial difficulties, but what they decided to do was start marketing their MiG 29 to the rest of the world. That was their latest fighter technology. You know?
Bob:And towards accomplishing that mission, they decided that they would do the, air show in, I think it was June 1989 at Paris in France. And Anatoli Kubocha was our demo pilot, and, he ended up ejecting at really low altitude from his airplane after an engine failure. And so that, that, of course, wasn't a very good demo of a MiG 20 nine's capability. And, Anatolia, you can still see that video of his ejection on, YouTube. And it's remarkable.
Bob:A remarkable demonstration of that seat capability. This shooter hardly opened when he hit the ground. And, he throws his shoot off. He stands up. The fireball's only a 100 feet away from you.
Bob:He reaches into a pocket, grabs a cigarette, and lights watches airplane burn. You know? He's a fighter pilot. You know? I love that.
Bob:And the Soviet Soviets then decided, okay. The next show is gonna be in North America. And Abbotsford is one of the bigger shows in North America, especially for military equipment. And so they decided that they demoed the airplane in Abbotsford. And, what they wanted was they wanted one of their pilots to either fly the f 15 or the f 18, and in return, they would allow a western pilot to fly their MiG 29.
Bob:And the Americans said, no way. You're not getting near our airplanes. You know? They had nothing to nothing to win. They figured and, so they were adamant.
Bob:Nobody's getting near an f 18 or an f 15. And the Soviets deployed to through Alaska to come down to Abbotsford. And the Soviets were really upset that they couldn't get that reciprocal agreement, but were gonna participate anyhow. And so that, they were to, they spent the night in Elmendorf, and then they were gonna deploy the next morning, down to Abbotsford. Now I was the alert force commander in Comox at that time.
Bob:I normally kept four jets out there, but this day, I only had three jets serviceable. And so one of them was a duo. So I took all four pilots with me, and NORA had told me that I was not to go any closer than a thousand feet to these MiG 29s and make no attempt to communicate with them. This was simply an escort mission. You know?
Bob:And so I said, yeah, we can live with that. And at the appropriate hour, they scrambled us. So I scrambled all three jets, and, we went up and, we intercepted the these, two MiG 20 nines on the bottom of the Alaska Panhandle. And, they're still f fifteens escorting them at that point. So we took that opportunity to get some pictures of all the airplanes flying south.
Bob:And then the f fifteens waved off, and they went back into Elmendorf. And so that we continued along. I stayed about a thousand feet behind them. We were 35,000 feet. And then they they climbed up to 37, so we go up 37,000 feet with them.
Bob:And I noticed that they were sitting about 40 degrees right of what I thought they should be going. You know? And we're all undercast. You can't see the ground below you. So they had no idea whether they're going out to sea or not, I guess.
Bob:And I became curious about that. So I called up NORAD and said, hey, where are these boys headed? They seem to be about 40 degrees right at track. NORAD comes back to me and says that we have no idea. You know?
Bob:We have no idea where they're heading. So then on my second radio, I go over to Vancouver Center, and I asked them. I said, got two MiG 20 nine's heading south. We're escorting, and I'd like to know where they're heading. And Vancouver Center comes back to me and says, hey.
Bob:We can see this whole package of airplanes heading south, but we haven't talked to anybody. So then I I became a little concerned, I said, well, I got these rules, but I'm gonna break them. And so I drove up beside the lead MiG 29. And he's pointing at his headset and giving me a thumbs down, telling me he's got a radio failure. And then, so I pointed at him, and I pointed about 40 degrees to the left.
Bob:And, he turned immediately, both airplanes turned immediately over to that direction. Then I asked him how much fuel he's got on board by hand signals, you know, just a drinking motion. What's your thumb? And he comes back with three fingers. And so that means he's got thirty minutes of fuel left.
Bob:Well, if we go direct to atmosphere, it's gonna take us about thirty minutes. So I can't really concern now. And so that, I patted my shoulder, which may join up close formation on my wing, so I put the two MiG 20 nines on my right wing and I got clearance from Abbotsford to take this package direct to Abbotsford. And the Vancouver Center was more than happy to see this happen. I never talked to NORAD again, even though it was the science of them.
Bob:And we started NORAD never said a word to me. And then at the appropriate point, I started an en route descent. I broke my two f eighteens on my left wing, had two MiG 20 nine's on my right. We go through 30,000 feet of cloud. I had no idea whether these guys could fly formation or not.
Bob:They're test pilots. And, they did a remarkable job. They were tucked right in with overlap, on that right wing. So there's no reason to be concerned. We broke out a cloud about 1,500 feet above ground, maybe 10 miles short of the runway.
Bob:And so I did a low approach into Abbotsford, turned the downwind, I waved off the two MiG-29s to land. And we came by once we were on the runway, did a fly pass over top of them, and then went back to Comox. And now I wanted to land in Abbotsford. You don't talk to these boys, but of course, I'm armed. I can't can't land in Abbotsford.
Bob:And so we head back to Comox. And after I landed in Comox, the crew chief comes up the ladder before I got out of the cockpit, he says, hey, mate. He says, that phone's been ringing off the wall for you. And I figured, no kidding. I just broke every rule that NORAD had given me.
Bob:So this commander NORAD wanted to talk to me. And after I got into the office, the phone rings again, I answered. And it wasn't NORAD calling me, it was the ambassador from The Soviet Union that was calling me and just wanted to thank me for helping the boys get into Abbotsford. And I said, well, you're very welcome. It's our pleasure.
Bob:And he says, well, I'd like you to be our guest of honor at the Abbotsford Dura Show. And I said, okay. Yeah. I'm taking two airplanes over there anyhow for static display. I'd love to be.
Bob:I'd love to meet you guys. And so we did. We deployed to on the Friday, we deployed over to the show in Abbotsford. I went over to the Soviet Pavilion and introduced myself to the guard that was outside. He goes inside, and he comes out and he says, Ned, go away.
Bob:So I try to laugh, you know, what's going on? I'm supposed to be their guest of honor. And so on the Saturday, I go back and see him again. And this guard goes in, comes back out, and he says, yeah, go away. And what was happening was that they were really working hard and trying to get this exchange of cockpits between their pilots and our pilots on our airplanes.
Bob:And, they couldn't get it, so they were so upset. So on the Sunday, towards the end of the, show in the afternoon, they changed their mind. They said, okay. We'll allow Western pilots to fly the MiG 29 without a reciprocal agreement. What they're really after is they want somebody to go public as to how great this airplane was.
Bob:And it was. It was pretty impressive to watch it do its air shows. And the general, Scott Eichel, he was two star, he was a senior general at the show. He comes over to me and he said, Bobby, he said, would you fly that MiG-twenty nine? And I said, yeah, I'll do that.
Bob:And so they took me over to that. Mary Collins was a deputy defense minister at the time. She was at the show as well. I was this thing was getting lots of attention, both politically and militarily. And I'm sitting there putting on Romans.
Bob:He's a demo pilot because Anatolia was still hurting. He was a demo pilot at Abbotsford. He was maybe five ten, you know, quite a stocky built guy. But he gives me his g suit because my g suit won't adapt to their their aircraft. And so it kind of fit.
Bob:You know? I could tell it wasn't gonna work very well, but, you know, I put it on. And then he gives me his helmet. You know? Because my helmet doesn't adapt to his airplane.
Bob:And so, Jesus, it was about two sizes too big. I could take this helmet, turn it around on my head. You know? And I didn't care. I was getting to fly.
Bob:This is a MiG 29. And while I was doing this, it was funny. Mary Collins comes up to me. She says, major wage. She says, don't screw this up, or we're both looking for work.
Bob:You know? And I just kinda laughed. You know? And she walked away. That's all she said.
Bob:She just she was scared because she'd been told by the minister of national defense that this wouldn't happen. And the same with Scott. He was he was told by the chief defense staff that this wouldn't happen. You know? So these guys stuck their necks way out, you know, to allow this to happen.
Bob:It wasn't really what they were told as a reciprocal exchange, but they you know, we weren't supposed to be getting in their airplanes. So they were scared. And, they took me in. I climbed up into the front seat of that, dual MiG 29. Valerie Meniski got in the back seat, and Valerie didn't speak a word of English.
Bob:And so the translator taught him how to say Bob pilot and Valerie pilot. And I start strapping in there, and there's a ground crew there helping me strap into the jet. He shows me how to start it up. And, you know, it's typical fighter cockpit, but all the instruments are in Cyrillic. I couldn't read any of them.
Bob:You know? I didn't know what the g meter was, the airspeed indicator or something. I had no idea what the flap speeds were, the gear speeds, none of that. So I just assumed that, you know, Valerie was gonna fly it from the back seat. The back seat's got such poor visibility, he's gotta fly it through a periscope, you know, that they had in the back seat.
Bob:You know? So he's got very limited ability, but I'm sure they're they're confident in doing that. And we get it fired up and start taxing out. Sticks about three or four inches higher than what they are in the f 18. You know?
Bob:So it felt a little bit awkward, but, you it was comfortable enough. And just as soon as we started taxiing out, Valerie says, Bob Pilot. Jesus, okay. Couldn't I had to use differential braking, I didn't know whether there was nose wheel steering on this thing or not. You know?
Bob:So I taxi out. I got encouraged to take off, and Valerie wants me to take off. No idea what takeoff speed was. Now on the f eighteen show, I did a takeoff loop. And, I'm sure the MiG 29 could have done it, but I wasn't gonna try that.
Bob:So I did a roll off the top. The difference between the f 18 and the MiG 29 was when I went through the vertical after takeoff, with the f 18, the airspeed would stagnate or maybe roll back a few knots. I was watching the airspeed indicator in this thing, and they're in kilometers per hour, so it didn't mean much. But it stayed the same or maybe even kept increasing a wee bit. You know?
Bob:So I knew the thrust of weight was better than what I had in the f 18. What I didn't know was how much fuel he had on board. You know? Maybe he was only going with a quarter tank, you know? So that's why the thrust of weight was so good.
Bob:So I did roll off the top, and, I did another, roll off the top after that gain some altitude, and then went into some hard maneuvering. I did what I thought was about a seventy, three sixty degree turn. And Jesus, that airspeed remained stable throughout that whole turn. So I was really impressed, you know, with the thrust, weight, and turn capability of that airplane. And I would guess it was about the same as an F-eighteen.
Bob:You know, I'd get around the three sixty in about twelve seconds. And then Valerie, the back seat, he says, Valerie, pilot. So he has control. And then he gets into a corner that I'm guessing was two g above what I was pulling, you know? He was about nine g.
Bob:I had no idea that he was gonna go and do that, of course, so I'm buried in the cockpit at nine g. I didn't gray out, but you know, I couldn't move. I was pinned down in the seat, know. And Valet rolls out of that. And then he takes the airplane, we're about 3,000 feet above the ground, and he goes pulls into the vertical, pulls both throttle style.
Bob:The airplane stops going up and starts into a tail slide. Now if you did that in an f 18, you got bailout, because you can't recover. It takes about 5,000 feet to get your nose down if you go into a tail slide with an f 18. Valerie lit both burners. Both burners lit off at exactly the same time, which the f 18 didn't.
Bob:You know, it one had lit off before the other. And, so that was different technology as well. But Valerie just pushed the stick forward and the nose dropped. And I kind of had a problem with that, because if you're going backwards and you push the stick forward, your nose should throw you on your back, you know, because your your elevators work in the opposite direction. But it didn't.
Bob:Your nose came down perfectly and flew right out of you only lost about 200 feet, you know, after he put the power in the burner. And so I started saying Bob pilot a lot, then, and I wanted to try that. And so I did. He said Bob pilot. And so I went into it, And I the first one, I just duplicated what he did.
Bob:I didn't learn anything from that. So I did another one. And this time on the recovery, when I lit the burners, I didn't let the nose drop. I went to about 70 degrees nose up and just left it in the burner. And this thing just stopped going down or just battled its way out of it into a climb again.
Bob:I was so impressed with the high angle of attack capability of that airplane. You know? I would say it was better than an f 18, but, it's hard to make those compares. I couldn't do the exact maneuvers I did with the air show and the f 18, but, I was pretty impressed. Then he says, Bob landing.
Bob:Means, I guess we're out of gas. I don't know. And so I go back and pitch it up, land it, and it landed real nice and smooth. Valerie pulled the drag sheet from the back seat, but because I didn't know it had a drag sheet. Anyhow, slowed her down, and he taxied it in, and we shut her down.
Bob:Well, Jesus, you know, once we shut down, there was a crowd of people there you couldn't believe, you know, and lots of military voice from us and the media. But the Soviets, they they didn't allow me to talk to anybody. Okay? They said, come with us, and they took me over to their pavilion. And I go into their pavilion, and, they pour these tumbler glasses half full of, vodka.
Bob:And, they toast the, Mekoyan Company. So yeah. Those boys, when they drink a shot, they drink it all, all in one shot. And so that, you know, I was a fire pilot. You know, I can do that.
Bob:And I'm not a drinker, you know? So I fired this glass back, being okay, that's okay. Then they fill these tumblers up again. Now I'm guessing there's three ounces, four ounces of liquor in each glass.
Bryan:Wow.
Bob:This time they, toasted the Soviet Union. Oh, I guess they gotta toast that as well. So I fired that thing back the same as they did. And my tongue starts tingling and, you know, I'm starting to feel the effects of all this alcohol right away. And then they toasted me.
Bob:Well, it's okay. Again, numbers have fallen. I fired that back. Well, god, that was the next thing to passing out at that point. I stayed for maybe another ten, fifteen minutes.
Bob:I don't know. I can't remember. I was too drunk. And I come out of their pavilion, I go outside, and the media is there in their droves. They wanna talk to me.
Bob:Well, I'm shit faced. You know? And so interviews are on YouTube, they used to be. Anyhow, I haven't seen it for years. But, it's kind of funny.
Bob:Yeah. But I painted them 10 feet tall. You know? I said, I'm really impressed with this jet. You know?
Bob:They did a great job. And the Soviets really appreciated that. So that, I got out in '91, I went airlines, but and it was about '96, I guess, they called me, from Langley Air Force Base, which CIA voice. And, they said, Bobby, the Soviets want you to fly their two thirty. And I said, god.
Bob:I'm I'm an air show airline pilot. I'm not a fighter pilot anymore. We know who you are. And the Soviets want you to fly, and they'll pay you 15,000 to do it. And it's in Farmborough, at the Farmborough air show.
Bob:And I said, yeah, I'd do that. So I called my boss, he said, yeah, go do that. And I was supposed to leave on about 08:00 on a Monday morning. I get a call about 03:00 in the morning from these same boys in Langley. He says, Bobby, it's all off.
Bob:The Soviets aren't coming with their Su-thirty. And you know, nobody saw that Su-thirty for about another five years. I don't know what happened. It never happened. But I'm really disappointed I never got a chance to apply that thing.
Bryan:Yeah. That would have been amazing.
Bob:Oh, It's vector thrust. Yeah. So, yeah, I wanted to fly it, but oh, well.
Bryan:So what was the international reaction to that flight? Like, was it a big deal? Did you hear from a lot of people?
Bob:Or It got media attention around the world. I got letters from Hong Kong all over Europe and all this stuff. Guys I knew, you know, I'm flowing with, right to me and said, yeah. It's in the newspapers here. Yeah.
Bob:How did that happen and all this stuff? So yeah, it got international attention. And I got a call from Ottawa, said the chief defense staff wants to talk to me. And so I flew down to Ottawa, and the next morning I go to their I don't want they do this every day or weekly or whatever, but all the Army, Navy commanders, Air Force commanders are at this conference. And so I go over to the NDH Secoo to attend this thing in the morning.
Bob:And the colonel that's there, he's kinda coordinating all this stuff. And he's telling me, he says, okay, no more than five minutes. You only answer questions, you know, and, you know, give me all kinds of rules I have to obey. So I went in there. And Paul Manson's a chief of defense staff.
Bob:And so he was my boss when I was in Lahr in Germany, and I knew Paul well. And so I walk in there, he says, well, he says, good to see you. He says, how were the kids? How's David? What grade's he in now?
Bob:And all this stuff. The rest of these guys are all staring at How the hell does he know this? He said, I heard you had quite a weekend. And I said, Yeah. And it was a lot of fun, and I learned a lot.
Bob:And he says great. And he asked me the story. I told him the story. And I was in there about forty minutes. And so it got a lot of attention.
Bob:And then when I got out of there, the CIA boys were in there. They wanted to talk to me. So I talked to them for an hour maybe. And I went back to Cold Lake, for one, and they come back out of fighter group and said, okay, you're going on tours. So I traveled around NATO for the next year as a twenty minute expert on a MiG 29.
Bob:You know? So it it got a lot of attention. Yeah. All of a sudden, Canada had a secret that the rest of the world didn't have. And in those circles, what they do is they trade information.
Bob:Okay? And so that we had a secret that other people wanted to know, and so, okay, you tell us this and we'll let you know about that, you know, that type of stuff.
Bryan:Wow. That's and that's probably that's a very unique circumstance to have happen.
Bob:Yeah. Really. Yeah. You're just time and place. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. So you talked a little about this earlier, but eventually you decided to transition to civilian aviation. What made you decide it was time to leave the military in 1990?
Bob:Yeah. When the Soviet Union collapsed, it was really, '91 before that flag came off the Kremlin, you know, that, our air force decided that, we're gonna downsize. And so we went from six fighter squadrons down to three. You know? And I could see that, hey.
Bob:The Britain's on the wall. There's not gonna be much flying time. And I'm not doing ground jobs. So a bunch of us boys got out and we went airlines. And I went with a company called Canada three thousand.
Bob:And the previous CEO from four forty one Squadron had already gone down there to Canada three thousand. So he gave them my name and they called me up and asked me if I'd do it. So I said, yeah. And so my wife had already moved to Comox, because I was spending most of my time in Comox on Cold Lake. So that I promised her that once I got out of the Air Force, I'll be home all the time because I was always away.
Bob:And first thing I do, of course, is join an airline. And so I'm down in Toronto and learned how to fly this seven fifty seven. They make you a first officer. The company only had 27 pilots or 28 pilots at that time. It was a brand new startup.
Bob:And so I down in Toronto, I take this course flying seven fifty seven. Civilian training to fly an airplane is not anything like military training. So God, it was real gentleman's course. Was out there a couple of days and into the airplane. And you're a first officer, know, when you're doing what you're told.
Bob:And then after about six months, the company buys these Airbus 330s. And I was selected to be captain on these Airbus 330s. So I flew them with Canada three thousand until ninety seven, ninety eight, ninety seven, I guess it was. And it was a great airplane, great job. Not really challenging much.
Bob:When you're a captain in the civilian industry, they're paying you for what you know. You do very little flying. You know, everything's done on autopilot, and especially that three thirty. I mean, to god, it was all all flown by a computer. Well,
Bryan:Airbus are kind of renowned for that. Right? Like being extremely computerized even when how they handle emergencies and things.
Bob:Exactly. Yeah. And it has created a problem, because nowadays, guys don't know how to fly airplanes. Everything's done on the computer. Everything's done on autopilot.
Bob:You know? And so they don't get any opportunity to to hand fly the airplane. And, I used to make my first officers disconnect the autopilot on approach going through 20,000 feet and hand flies, you know, because that's the only opportunity they're gonna get to do that. And I guess it helped, but they don't do that anymore.
Bryan:Did you find that anything from fighter flying carried over to the airline cockpit?
Bob:Well, fighters, going a to b was a very small part of your job. You know? It you fought that airplane. That was your job. Whereas, in the airline, that's your total job going a to b.
Bob:And they put a lot of effort going into going from a to b. You know? There are lot of rules and regulations in the airline industry, but you've got 350 passengers back there. You know, it's important that you do that safely and comfortably. So that that was your primary job as a captain of an airplane.
Bob:It's keep it safe, keep it comfortable for the passengers. And, there's always challenges. The companies are in this business to make money. You know? So they don't give you a whole lot of extra fuel, you know, and stuff like that.
Bob:So you gotta decide as captain, hey. I need more, or, you know, I should live with what you're giving me, that type of thing. And, weather. With the three thirty, initially, we were limited to cat one, so 200 feet, half mile on approach. And so that, once you started that approach, you're pretty much committed to landing.
Bob:But later on, as the technology improved, I went over to Korean Air and flew a h three thirties for them, and you'd run into zero visibility, but that air that they had was cat three Charlie, so there was no visibility limits. I could land zero zero.
Bryan:Oh, wow.
Bob:Yeah. And I did that three or four times, I guess, in my career. And, the big problem when you land off a zero zero approach is finding a place to turn off that runway. You can't see anything. So that was a bit of a challenge.
Bob:You can't taxi in because you don't know where you're going. You know? So they'd normally send out a vehicle with flashing lights on it, and you could follow the vehicle back into the rip.
Bryan:Wow. I I can't imagine flying a zero zero approach. That just sounds I know. Kinda sounds scary, to be honest.
Bob:But, you know, you monitored, throughout that approach. You know, you monitored, all the instrumentation. You made sure that, your two ILSs were hooked up at the same time, and they're both reading the same. So and the airplane calls out your altitudes, that type of stuff. So it's not that complicated a thing to do, but you were always there ready to take control if any of those systems started lying to you.
Bryan:Yeah. Of course. I'd like to take a moment and do some reflecting on your career. Looking back, what's the proudest moment of your flying career?
Bob:I think my biggest contribution to the military was as an instructor. You know, that's so important in the military that you have experienced guys that can teach the younger fellas, you know, that job and keep it safe. And that's part of my PTSD, I guess, is that when we lost people, was that because of something I didn't teach them? You know? And I know that.
Bob:I know when OP was killed up in a newbie, you know, and I felt bad because he just got into an unusual attitude and pushed him in the ground. You know? And if he hadn't been taught better how to do unusual attitude recovery, he would live, you know. And so I felt bad that I didn't do that for him. And, you know, once you get operational training, there's so many other things that they have to learn.
Bob:Mhmm. Sometimes you forget about the basics. And so, I think that was my biggest single contribution was as an instructor.
Bryan:Now I think you said this in part one, but, which aircraft would you most love to fly again and why?
Bob:Yeah. Starfighter. You know? And if you think all the boys that flew Starfighter would give you the same answer. You know?
Bob:And it was such an incredible airplane. It was it flew like a missile. You know? And you had so much power. And we weren't limited by power.
Bob:We were limited by heat. So that when your inlet air temperature hit a 120 a 121 degrees centigrade or whatever it was, you got a slow light in the cockpit. They told us not to mess with that. That would eat the, engine up. But, god, you still had power to go way fast.
Bob:Yeah. So I think that was part of it, and all your flying was done right on the trees. You know? Yeah. So that's exciting in itself.
Bryan:Yeah. What do you miss most about operational flying?
Bob:I miss the guys. You know? Squadron life was incredible. You know? And those boys were all so good.
Bob:You know? They cared about doing that job as much as I did. You know? They wanted to be the best they could be. You know?
Bob:Their skill levels were incredible, and I was so proud to be with them. So, yeah, if I miss anything, I miss the boys. And luckily, I'm at the, Cold War exhibit now where we have, 70 vets in there. And it's kinda like a squadron environment. That helps me more than anything, I think.
Bryan:Mhmm. Having brought the f 18 online as a new aircraft, politics aside, what challenges do you think the RCAF will face bringing the f 35 to the flight line?
Bob:There's gonna be a lot. Infrastructure is gonna be the initial problem. They're about three years behind now developing the infrastructure to bring the, f 35 to Canada. And how they're going to accomplish that? I don't know.
Bob:The support that that airplane will need is not in place. So maybe the guys are gonna fly out of The States. I don't know. Or maybe they throw enough money at it that they can increase that capability. And then, I don't think training's gonna be a big issue because they're training in The States on the f 35.
Bob:And so there's lots of experience down there, on that airplane. Although, I was watching the the young lady doing the air show in Abbotsford, and, she's the air show pilot on the f 35. She's got less than a thousand hours total flying time and 350 on the jet.
Bryan:Wow.
Bob:So, hey, there's obviously a shortage of personnel down there as well. Yeah. And I know a lot of our boys have less than a thousand hours when they're doing shows as well. So I think experience levels is gonna be a huge challenge. You know?
Bob:Who's there to do the instructing? You know? And I know that's the big problem in Canada. All our training's gone off offshore, you know, because we don't have instructors. And that was a huge mistake by the military to allow that change in personnel where you lost the people with experience.
Bob:They all went airlines. You know? Mhmm.
Bryan:So this episode will air on Remembrance Day. Given that, I'd love to spend a little time on the topic of Remembrance Day. What will you be doing this year to mark that special day?
Bob:Well, this year, I'm the honorary chair of the, Air Force Association. And, we have five wings in Alberta. And so I'm my honorary chair of those five wings. And so that typically I go to one of the wings on November 11 to talk or present reefs and stuff like that. So this year, I'm I'm in Calgary.
Bob:But I spent a lot of time before November 11 talking to students in schools. And the message you wanna give is what life is like in the air force and why it's important. You know? Because those kids have never learned that lesson. Now the kids in Europe are different.
Bob:They, we never brought the bodies back to Canada until after '71. So there's lots of cemeteries in Europe, and those cemeteries are maintained by schoolchildren. And so those kids understand the price that was paid to maintain this way of life we have, and Canadian kids don't have that luxury. Now we are fortunate in the sense we're getting a lot of people out of Ukraine coming into Alberta right now, and those people do understand what it's like to be in war. And so I encourage those kids to talk to the rest of the kids, to tell them what it's like, hey, to live in those conditions.
Bob:And, I think that's effective. But the more we can get the young people to understand the importance of the military and the sacrifices that have been made up to this point, the better it will be for Canada. Canadians will start to vote in elections for parties that support the military.
Bryan:Many people associate Remembrance Day with the world wars. What would you want Canadians to remember about those who served during the Cold War?
Bob:I want them to know about the sacrifices we made to win that war and the challenges that we faced and the threat that occurred so that they understand that that wasn't won by accident. That was won through a tremendous commitment. And so I'm hoping you know, the World War II, World War I, they were very important, really significant. The Canadian contribution was recognized around the world. But the Cold War was a threat bigger than both those other wars.
Bob:You know? That could have changed the world forever. And the media never covered it. So Canadians never felt a threat. Canadians didn't think, well, there's just more going on in international politics.
Bob:It wasn't. It was a real threat.
Bryan:When you think back to your time in uniform, who or what do you find yourself remembering most?
Bob:I remember the good times. I remember the flying. You know? That was so incredible. You know, I love the flying.
Bob:But I remember, you know, just different adventures with different guys. You know? Us deploying down to Rome or, you know, someplace on a squadron exchange and stuff like that and all the fun you'd have is that we partied just as hard as we flew. You know? It was a it was a time in in the evolution of the military where we weren't probably politically correct, drank too much, and partied long hours.
Bob:You went to beer call on Friday night. You were there until 03:00 in the morning. You know? And they did that every every week. You know?
Bob:You didn't wanna go home. You know? You were just having too much fun. You know? So I miss that.
Bob:You know? I miss the boys. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. I can understand that that feeling, having just gotten out of the military. We talked earlier about what's the thing you miss most about operational flying. And and for that and for this, your answer is I miss the boys. And, yeah, I I miss the folks I flew with.
Bryan:That's the thing I miss the most is sitting around. I miss the flying, but I really miss sitting around and connecting and talking about the flight and just kinda shooting the crap in the in the ready room and and and connecting. I really miss that.
Bob:Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's not common in industry for that to happen. I think the the defense industry is unique in that way, where you have that comradeship with the people you work with.
Bryan:I think so. I think if anyone else manages to get something close to that, they're very fortunate because it's a very unique thing.
Bob:It really is. Yeah.
Bryan:Yeah. How can everyday Canadians best show remembrance or gratitude for military service beyond the poppy and the ceremony?
Bob:I think supporting the military is such a huge issue in Canada. Canadians don't feel the threat. We live next door to uncle Sam. You know? Why should we have a big military?
Bob:You know? They really don't understand why it's necessary. And the political parties don't put much money into the military. It's been decreasing in size, you know, ever since the end of World War two, because they're going after votes. If the if the Canadian public doesn't feel that we need the military, the government certainly won't support it.
Bob:Mhmm. They they're going after votes. And so somehow we have to educate the Canadian public so they know how important it is to maintain this defensive posture we have.
Bryan:Yeah. I agree. I think probably that being said, some of the best things they can do is visit museums like the one that you volunteer at, bring the kids, help educate the the youth, I'll say, on on kind of our past and our present and and the threats that we face.
Bob:Yeah. Yeah. We're kinda looking at another cold war right now, you know. There's a lot going on in the world.
Bryan:There really is. Yeah. Well, Bob, that wraps up our two part Remembrance Day interview. I'm truly grateful that you took the time to share your stories with us. And again, I wanna thank you for your service and for being here today.
Bryan:So thank you so much.
Bob:Thank you, Brian. I appreciate the opportunity.
Bryan:Okay. That does it for our two part series on Remembrance Day with major retired Bob Wade, former Cold War fighter pilot, and the first Western pilot to fly in a MiG 29. Tune in next week as we do something very special and have our first American guest on the show, author and retired aerial gunner, Anthony Dyer. He wrote the book Moonchild and was a aerial gunner on the famous AC one thirty h Spectre gunship, as well as the HH 60 g Pave Hawk rescue helicopter. So tune in for that one.
Bryan:It's gonna be very exciting, and you do not wanna miss it. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show? You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft.
Bryan:As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up.
Bryan:See you. Engineer, shut down all four. We're shutting down all four engines.
