Episode 78: The Gunner: Life of a USAF Aerial Gunner and flying on the AC130H Spectre Gunship and the HH-60G PAVEHAWK Part 1 - Anthony Dyer
This episode is proudly brought to you by the F-thirty five partner team of Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, and RTX. With over 1,000 Canadian employees at five major facilities across Canada, the F-thirty five program is providing unmatched capabilities and interoperability for Canada and allied militaries around the world. Learn more at www.f35.com/canada.
Bryan:Fuel and ignition switches. On. RPM switches. Set. PD switches.
Bryan:Normal. Doors and hatches. Closed. Lie down. Stroblade.
Bryan:On. Research check-in fleet with your left. Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and today we're doing something different here with our first American guest.
Bryan:With me today is author of the book Moonchild and United States Air Force Veteran, tech sergeant Anthony Dyer, a retired aerial gunner on the a c one thirty h Spectre gunship and the HH 60 g Pave Hawk helicopter. Anthony, I'm excited to get to know you and chat about your book today. Welcome to the show.
Anthony:Hey. Thanks for having me, Ron. It's a privilege and honor to be here, man. Excited.
Bryan:Yeah. I'm really happy to have you here. So today, we'll be talking about Anthony's early days in the Appalachians joining the United States Air Force or USAF and his baptism of fire as an aerial gunner. But before we jump into any of that, let's go through Anthony's bio. Anthony Dyer was born under a full moon in 1982 in Silva, North Carolina in the heart of the Appalachian Mountains.
Bryan:In 2000, he joined the U. S. Air Force beginning his career as an F-15E Strike Eagle munitions loader at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base. Following the attacks of nine eleven, he loaded air to air missiles for operation Noble Eagle before cross training as an air force firefighter where he spent nearly five years protecting lives and aircraft on the flight line. Still drawn to the skies, Anthony set his sights on the pointiest tip of the spear, special operations aviation.
Bryan:He earned his place as a special missions aviator with the mighty sixteenth special operations squadron flying aboard the AC one thirty h Spectre gunship before serving with the forty first rescue squadron, the legendary Jolly Greens on the HH 60 g Pave Hawk helicopter. Over more than a decade in special operations, he flew high risk missions around the globe earning multiple accolades including the air force's Jolly Green Rescue Mission of the Year in 2018. In February 2020, he and his teammates were further lauded for their actions by then secretary of the air force Barbara Barrett at the air warfare symposium. After retiring from active duty, Anthony turned to writing as both therapy and tribute. His debut memoir, Moonchild, The Roots and Wings of a USAF Combat Special Missions Aviator, offers a raw and compelling look at war, trauma, addiction, and recovery, shedding light on the invisible battles many veterans and service members face.
Bryan:Now based in New Mexico, Anthony writes and speaks to break the stigma around mental health in the military, aviation and veteran communities. When he isn't writing, he enjoys fishing, basketball, and spending time with his wife and daughter. So Anthony, first of all, can you tell us about your upbringing in the Appalachians Of North Carolina?
Anthony:Yeah. So I grew up in a small town in Silva in the Appalachians Of North Carolina there. It's about a hour West of Asheville. Pretty much the most notable city next to us would be Asheville. And, you know, it's a since the community was strong, everybody knew everybody.
Anthony:I felt like I could, like, throw a baseball across my whole town. It was, you know, pretty small. Probably high school graduating class was, like, 300 people. You know, there's a lot of lot of, like, Scott Irish heritage there in Western North Carolina as well as the, know, there's an eastern band of Cherokee, the the native American culture there as well. So you really have a nice melding pot of all these different cultures and, you know, backgrounds and, you know, all coming together just to, you know, treat each other with friendly respect, you know.
Anthony:And it's of those things like, if you wanna moonshine back in the day, just go to your neighbor's house type type atmosphere, you know. But, yeah, you know, basketball was big and, football was big as far as high school sports go. You know, I didn't, really have my first flight until I was, like, third grade on a actual helicopter trip my friend had over the Pigeon Forest, Tennessee area. So, you know, I got to see the the world from that perspective for the first time. And, you know, I knew somewhat that, you know, aviation would you know, takes somewhat a big part of my life.
Anthony:And, you know, once I, you know, realized that Appalachians gave me my roots, I definitely got my wings later and the
Bryan:air force let me accomplish that. Oh, that's awesome. Like reading the book, it sounds like a really amazing place to grow up and a place where you can connect with the outdoors and and really kind of enjoy some of the good things in life.
Anthony:Yeah. That, you know, there there was like, if I wanted to go fishing, I would I would go walk down the street a mile, just half a mile to go to the Tuckaseegee River and just beautiful, beautiful area, you know, and the Nantahala Gorge and, you know, there's rope swings, you know, and there's always like the I call them front porch conversations with my, you know, the friends and people I looked up to to get advice. And, you know, what that involves usually is like a, you know, some sort of swing and then some sweet tea, you know. Down south, we have sweet tea. There's a
Bryan:Yeah.
Anthony:You know, if you go to a restaurant and ask for tea, they just look at know, I'm sure it's vice versa up north. But, yeah, it's just that that sort of mentality, you know, after after every Sunday, there's somebody who'd be having some sort of potluck, you know, meet up and it's really good food, really good people.
Bryan:Yeah. That sounds really nice. We we get a little taste of that sometimes in small towns here, but I get a feeling it's a whole different a whole different place down in the South when it comes to that that small town kind of neighborly atmosphere.
Anthony:Yeah. Everybody knows everybody and that can either, you know, usually be be a good thing in some instances and then sometimes it's, you know, you hear this and that, you know, what what's true or whatnot. But it spreads fast, I'll say that word, you know.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I believe that. Yeah. So what led you to write your first book?
Anthony:Yeah. So I I was getting a prolonged exposure therapy my last year in the air force. And what what had happened what what turned you know, started out as a weekend drinking habit, turned into a, you know, a pint of some sort of hard liquor at night at least just to go to sleep. And Mhmm. You know, my wife gives me the ultimatum of, you know, either the alcohol or or me and your kid, you know, and, you know, thank God I chose them, my family.
Anthony:And so I decided to get help. You SOCOM, a lot of these units, we have like, the preservation of the force and family, which what that means is you get a, basically like a physical therapist, you get a physical trainer and then a psychologist. And I didn't want medication at the time, so I did prolonged exposure treatment. And the whole idea behind that is to get comfortable being uncomfortable, like to write out your story over and over, then, you know, tell your story. And basically I remember going in there with a chip on my shoulder, like, does this what does this psychiatrist, what does this lady know about, you know, mental health and all that?
Anthony:I come to realization, like when she said the, you know, typical cliche analogy of like, you know, you wouldn't call a dentist to fix your car type. And I was like, okay, I'll, I'll give it a whirl. You know, first time I told the story, you know, I cried, she, she cried and she's like, you know, she, you should tell your story like over and over a 100 times. You know, I, I did, and I said no, and, you know, choir professional and all that. And then once I got out and the, the dust settles, you know, like, you realize when you out process the military, there's often not even a door handle on the other side of that door.
Anthony:So you can't, you can't get back into this, this machine that I've known for twenty one years, right?
Bryan:And so
Anthony:I decided, you know, maybe if I I should put this on pen to pad and and get this story out there. And if if one person seeks help and realizes it's okay to get help, especially in these aviation and very uncommon jobs, it's it's okay to to to not be okay after two decades of war and just leave it on the page and someone get help, that's a win.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. It is it's a powerful thing when you can share your story. I've had a chance I've been I've been blessed to do that on this show as well. It's a powerful thing when you have a chance to share your story and there's a chance that somebody out there maybe can relate and feel like they're not alone.
Bryan:And maybe that leads them to get some help. I've been lucky enough to know that a few people who have contacted me and I've been able to walk them through that and it's a pretty amazing thing.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. And I you know, I've I've talked someone off a ledge before too, and when that happens, you're never really ready for that that conversation. But being, I guess, the silver lining is I I know what to sort of recognize in in the guy's voice when it happened and everything, you know, to make sure they got help and, you know, prevent the the worst from happening. You know, we talk about, you know, 22 a day, man, and that's even one's too many. You know, telling these stories in these platforms, it it really does help.
Anthony:And and getting help's contagious, you know?
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. And and for the audience, the twenty two a day that Anthony's talking about is, an estimated twenty two, I believe it's veterans a day, commit suicide. So it's obviously a huge issue, and and it's definitely something that that needs to to be addressed. Okay.
Bryan:So we're going to talk quickly about SIFMAP or the Canadian Forces Member Assistance Program. This program is for regular force members, reserves who are on duty during an incident, and parents and siblings of CAF regular and reserve force members who are injured or who die while in service. The program provides direct access to telephone counseling services twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. From my own personal experience, you can call or use their online chat feature to make an appointment. They then set you up with a professional and I believe you get 10 free mental health sessions.
Bryan:For more details, I highly encourage you to Google CFMAP, that's C F M A P, and click on the canada.ca link. The beauty of this program is it's free and confidential, so no one in the CAF will know you used it, not your supervisor or chain of command, and not your doctor. I don't say that to encourage people hiding their conditions from their doctor. I personally think it's important to be open with your doctor about what you're going through, but if you're afraid to ask for help, it's a great way to dip your toes in the water confidentially. So how do you contact them?
Bryan:Listen closely everyone, take out your phone and save this number because you or someone you love may need it one day. The number is +1 802687708. Again, that's +1 802687708. And now on with the show. So the book's early chapters touch on themes of identity and belonging.
Bryan:Why was it important to establish those ideas so soon?
Anthony:Because I realized the importance of, the team aspect of it that, you know, I think it was a Confucius statement. Many hands make light work. Right? Like, you know, whatever the task is, the objective is. What was beautiful about the gunships is, like, you know, we had 13 crew members at the time in this sort of organized chaos to get this close air support.
Anthony:And it's really split second decisions that make sure the guys on the ground get home. And, you know, so the the sense of identity with a team, something bigger than myself was that was always very important to me. And, you know, it was always instilled in me even in sports and, you know, Cub Scouts growing up, doing things in the mountains. Like, you get a lot more done together than just just one opinion, one mind.
Bryan:Yeah. And you mentioned sports. You also mentioned in the book that basketball is like religion where you grew up. What skill did you pick up in high school basketball that continued to serve you in the USF?
Anthony:So I was I was at a basketball camp, my my junior year. Was it well, I say that, but the guy came to us. He was a a coach from, I think somewhere near New Jersey, but ended up with coaching at Lenoir Ryan later. But this guy gets up there and he shoots, like, literally, like, a 100 free throws. And I don't even know if he missed once.
Anthony:He and he was basically the point he was trying to make is the key to success, not just basketball, anything's repetition. Mhmm. And if you look at these these these jobs, like aerial gunner and, like, you know, special mission jayvaders, we're all creatures of habit, very very checklist oriented. So, you know, I even told my daughter the other day, if you wanna be successful at successful at anything, you practice, practice, practice, and just that repetition. So that that that was the biggest thing that basketball told me.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge part of, I think, any any professional pursuing their craft and wanting to really perfect what they do, you have to get the reps in.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. As Michael Jordan said, you know, you miss a 100% of the shots you don't take. Yeah. And you could imagine how many how many shots he's taken.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So you enlisted in the USAF on 07/18/2000. What does that event consist of?
Bryan:Like, I think most Canadian listeners will be somewhat familiar with what that looks like in Canada. What's that look like in The States?
Anthony:So so back then, there well, I still may be, but there's this thing called delayed enlistment program. And when I was, you know, 17, about to turn 18, let's call it my last, I don't know, four to six months left. And, you know, before I left in, my high school senior year there, my dad gives me the typical college, hey, it's time to, you know, get a job, go to college, get out. And so long story short, I talked to a Navy recruiter at first, talked about being on a boat six months. I was, you know, was not for me.
Anthony:Talked to the army. I was like, it's not for me. And I gonna talk to my dad about the quality of life in the air force. And he was a, he was in way before I was about four years down in the McDills, a communications guy. And he talked to me about quality of life, sort of the, you know, the TDY with golf clubs type mentality.
Anthony:And, so basically I went and talked to a recruiter there in Asheville, was the closest one back then in North Carolina. We would, we would have different meetings and stuff like that throughout the four to six months, make sure I'm doing good, you know, and usually involved in a drug test or like, some sort of physical fitness, see where I was at type stuff and get ready for basic training. You know, I hadn't signed on the actual dotted line, as they say, yet. The 07/18/2000, that's when you get when I went to MEPS there in Charlotte, North Carolina, that's where they, you know, one of the most stringent physicals you can get, all that stuff.
Bryan:MEPS stands for military entrance processing station, and it is where recruits go for testing and medical screening.
Anthony:It's in Charlotte there. And, basically, they're giving you your physical, that, you know, the drug testing you, all these different things. And, you know, I had my job lined up, to go that I did, and, you know, I came with a bonus and all that. And then finally at the end of that, you know, your head's spinning because you just did all these different events to enlist. And, you know, you sign the dotted line and line in some officer.
Anthony:I to be honest with you, I can't it was so long ago. Can't remember who it was or what even branch they were in. Does your oath of enlistment? But but I definitely knew that I was taking an oath that it was something bigger than myself. And Mhmm.
Anthony:But but, you know, even at that point, though, there were still words like duty, honor, and, like, you know, service before self. I I didn't know till till way later in my career. And that late in the early AM that night, you know, or something like that, I I was flying to San Antonio on my first fixed wing flight ever for basic training.
Bryan:Yeah. That's kind of the interesting thing. In in Canada, many times, square you'll into the Canadian Armed Forces and then wait a month or two before you leave for basic. I know I had I had a bunch of time. I think they gave me leave without pay for a few weeks before basic started.
Bryan:But that's not how it worked for you. You left that night. Right?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. It was that night right after signing. But but I I sort of knew, like, a date from the recruiter and the delayed enlistment program. Okay.
Anthony:Expect sort of this day within a few days. And, you know, and then that on when I was done with all my physical set, all that stuff they do, I signed on the dotted line, reenlist, and I went to some some hotel that was connected to like a Shoney's and, you know, got some food and got little sleep, and then next thing you know, I'm on that that flight.
Bryan:Man, that's a fast change from civilian to military life, but that's how they do it down there. Right? Like, it's cross the line and and now you're military and that's that.
Anthony:Yeah. You you put a, you know, a good way of baptized by fire. That's really it's a lot of fire hose effect, you know? Yeah. It's all this, you know, get the basic, you're, you know, you never I've never been out of the town other than like, you know, a few states over, you know, different you know, was it was cool though to see, like, people I've never you know, cultures I've never seen before, with with everyone, you know, and just just, like I said, all coming together, man, to to get through this thing.
Bryan:Yeah. I love that about the Canadian military too, just meeting people from all over the country. And, you know, being from Southwest Ontario, I had not I'd traveled the country a little with my family, but hadn't really had a chance to meet a ton of people who weren't from where I was from. And I do find that's a really cool experience in the military.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. And you get to I mean, there's so much stuff I never knew about just the earth and, you know, different cultures and like different different states even, you
Bryan:know? Mhmm. An important theme in your book is living a house money life. Can you explain what that means to the listeners?
Anthony:Yeah. So I I realized at at this point, like, I'm taking a gamble and and to live a house like, when we say house money, we're talking about, like, how much more aggressive, like, you ever played blackjacket roulette at a casino, like, would a person gamble if you're playing with a house's money? So I tried to look at look at life and decisions through that lens. You know, I heard an awesome quote. I'm not sure agree with it fully, but it said something to the effect of, like, you know, empires are built on taking risk, nine to fives are built on avoiding them.
Anthony:And, you know, I realized I didn't wanna be a nine to five guy. I wanted to to do something bigger myself and and take that risk, and no matter what I do, just, you know, just just die living, you know.
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. You know, I I can relate so much that I remember when I was a teenager trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I didn't know much, but I knew it. I didn't want it to be an office job.
Bryan:I I knew I didn't want to just sit in a chair. Now it's kind of funny because when you fly, you end up sitting in a chair while you're flying anyways. But you know what I mean? Like Oh, yeah. You I didn't want it to be a a nine to five sitting on my butt somewhere in an office.
Bryan:I want I knew I was gonna be maybe first responder or military or something like that. So I can relate to that for sure.
Anthony:Yeah. And there was a I remember just this was always a thought, especially later in my career, I thought about this, you know, in, you know, elementary school, had a basically, a teacher say, you know, you're you're never gonna make a living looking out a window. And what what they were really saying is, like, basically, like, you're not gonna amount to this and that, and, you know, you can't do it, you know. And the biggest thing I learned with that is, like, you know, if somebody tells you you can't do something, that's that's a heck of a motivation right there. You know, prove them wrong and just like I said, if you want something, go for the gusto, you know.
Bryan:Yeah. And, of course, the irony being that eventually you were making a living looking out a window.
Anthony:Yeah. Think the the other day, I even on my my Instagram page, put, like, you know, description, you know, just a gunship dude never made a living looking out a window, now an author somehow. Something like that.
Bryan:You know? Just just the irony of it. Yeah. That's awesome. So you graduated from basic training in mid September two thousand.
Bryan:Our audience is pretty familiar with the Canadian system, but can you describe USAP basic training to us?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. So so back then, it was six weeks. I I'm not sure exactly how long it is now. Maybe, like, eight weeks, but there was basically, there's five weeks of you're just learning, like, customs and courtesies, you know, facing movements, drills, stuff like that, and, you know, how to be a flight, you know, and everybody was sort of designated like, hey, you clean the, you know, the bathrooms, you align the beds, all these different tasks, you know, and and, you know, there was basically you're in competition with these other flights to get what they call an honor flight.
Anthony:That was a big thing for us, remember. Basically, you wanted to let least the merits, and there was testing that was involved in physical testing, which involved a you know, they tested in the beginning a mile and a half run. Then back then it was, how many pushups can you do in a minute and sit ups in a minute. And changed a little bit now, but, yeah, it was, it was, wasn't bad at all, to be honest with you. Like, least at that point, didn't think.
Anthony:And then the six week, they had this thing called the beast or it's called the beast, but basically, you're out in a, you know, somewhat of a a forward deployed type scenario, and you're you're sleeping in a a tent for the first time and then on a cot for the first time and
Bryan:Mhmm.
Anthony:You know, doing a low crawl, stuff like that. Trying to trying to get some more your ethos in you and stuff like that before you, you know, exit basic training.
Bryan:Yeah. You know, that actually is very, very similar to the program that we do here in Canada. Like, as you say, the beginning is kind of just formed into making you into somewhat of a military member, making sure you know how to deport yourself and just kind of making sure you know how to take care of your uniform and work as a team and all that stuff. And then you get into the stages in the field where you go on these little field exercises and kind of, you know, play army almost and Yeah. And yeah, go from there.
Bryan:So it's very similar. Awesome. So your first trade was weapons loader, affectionately known as load toads. Can you briefly describe what this job consisted of?
Anthony:Yeah. So the weapons loader was the two w one AFSC, which a lot of like, some people call that a MOS, like, basically what your specialty code for your job is. And what that consists of is you have a three man crew usually that you have a one man, which is like a like a sergeant, like some sort of a team lead, if you will, and then a two man who who preps the aircraft, you know, the bomb, you know, the bomb racks, the bruise, and stuff like that. And Yep. And the three man, that was that was my job at the time to drive the it's called a jammer.
Anthony:The reason they call this load toads is because if you extend the legs on this thing to get the balance of this forklift type mechanical working of this thing and, you know, you're loading these 500, you know, even 2,000 pound bombs onto these aircraft. And that was my job to sort of do that. And before that, prep the bomb with the the fuses and the landers and stuff like that. And but, yeah, we got to put the long story short bombs, missiles on the fighter jets, and in some cases, guys do the bombers, etcetera.
Bryan:Okay. So pretty physically intense job?
Anthony:It it can be. Like, the the probably the hardest thing to do was, like, the the AIM nine, which I forgot how much it weighed, but you had three people holding this thing above your head and sliding on a rail then connecting it. Yeah. So that was it wasn't too bad, but it could be, you know.
Bryan:Yeah. You'd see many people get hurt doing that kind of stuff, or is it all pretty smooth?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty smooth. You know, you got three people on it and then possibly a a shoulder injury here or there, but, you know, older or military.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So as it did for all of us who were alive at that time, everything changed for you on 09/11/2001. Can you tell us about this experience?
Anthony:Yes. So I was on a mid shift at that time, and that was, you know, approximately midnight to, like, 8AM is what that meant. So we would load the, you know, the aircraft before the next morning sortie go for the so the fighter pilots could train and stuff like that, and the March, you know, fighter squadron there. And that was at Seymour Johnson, North Carolina. And I just went to sleep, it felt like, in a I don't know if it was around 9AM.
Anthony:My the two man, one of my good friends, he came in, you know, beat on my door and he said, hey, Diary, have you seen what happened? And I'm, you know, waking up. Was like, no. What are you talking about? And I went to the day room, which is like a common area in the center of the dorm where everybody can meet, eat, you know, cook, stuff like that, play cards, and, you know, show my age here.
Anthony:But there was like a tube, you know, tube style television with maybe like three channels on it. One of those probably being like AFN.
Bryan:For the listeners, AFN is the American Forces Network.
Anthony:You know, I can't remember which newscast was on, but I remember the first plane had already hidden. By the time I was there, that's when the the second one, like, nine something, 09:15 or something like that, you know, hit. And, you know, I realized at that moment, like, it it lit a fire on me and, like, you know, you know, the the fact those 343 firefighters ran in that that building that day and all the first responders that ran in while everyone runs out, you know, that that stayed with me. Like, what's what's different in their DNA? Like, what kind of person is that?
Anthony:You know? Like like, I wanna be like that that guy, you know? And Mhmm. You know, at the same time, there was a a level of vengeance that I'm I'm sure we all had. You know, we wanted to to get revenge, right, as Americans, and they took out 3,000 plus lives.
Anthony:And so obviously, some anger was there and stuff like that. And, you know, five years down the line, I decided to to finally be to be a firefighter and, you know, to sort of looking up to those guys, and that mentality is why I did that.
Bryan:Yeah. That was a that was a crazy day. And for some of our listeners, there's a there's a decently diverse age range in our in our listeners. And, a lot of listeners will remember exactly where they were that day, but some of our younger listeners, it's crazy to think now that people who were born after that are in their twenties and they won't realize like until they have a day that happens in their life, they won't realize what that day was like. Like that was just like a day where everybody remembers where they were, how they found out, what they did for the rest of the day.
Bryan:It was just like everything changed. And it affected the course for a lot of us who joined the military or who were in the military. Like I joined a couple years later. It affected the course of our lives for the next couple decades.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. I and I remember, like, even right after it happened, like, we we had to sort of we had to load the F-18Es, the Strike Eagles there with, like, you know, live aim nines and live aim one twenties. That was the first time I'd ever really touched a live munition. And, you know, I'm eight what, 19 years old at that point. And, you know, I remember thinking, like, if this missile doesn't come back, something else would happen.
Anthony:Right? They Yeah. The fighter pilots had to do what they had to do. Yeah. It was just a very surreal, like, I'll never forget that that moment, that feeling.
Bryan:Mhmm. Mhmm. When you say that, you're talking about, like, basically, it would have meant they had to shoot down an airliner or or some other threat.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. It was a operation Noble Eagle is what it was called. And we had to load the the strike eagles, and they would, you know, up and down the to New York and back wherever the case was and, you know, basically patrolling stuff like that. Because, know, we're still trying to figure out as a country, like, what how this happened, you know Yeah.
Anthony:All the intel on it, stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah.
Bryan:So as you've said, you decided to retrain in fire protection. Can you tell us about your training at the Lewis f Garland DOD Fire Academy and a couple of highlights of your time as a firefighter?
Anthony:Yeah. What what was really cool about that that academy is you're you're with every branch. So it was like, you know, the the navy firefighters, the marine firefighters, and army, even the coast guard, all all of us together, even some civilians were in there in the mix. And if I remember, I was a six or seven week block, and, you know, in each block, you had a different instructor. So you got a mixture of everything, and you're learning everything from structure firefighting, you know, basics to aircraft firefighting basics to hazmat technicians, all these different things, ropes and knots, all within this six or seven week course.
Anthony:So it was probably the most physical job I ever had was, or training wise, was definitely that, I would say that, you know, and just learning how to breathe in your mask and conserve your bottle, stuff like that. And, you know, the good thing about on base though is like usually any DOD facility, everything's still fire safe, which is a good thing. Like you may get like, you know, saw, like, three structure fires, I believe, my whole whole time doing that.
Bryan:Mhmm. How long were you doing that for?
Anthony:It was approximately five years. Ended that in 2010. So
Bryan:Okay. Yeah. And so as far as what comes next, you've mentioned that you felt that internal sense of vengeance for nine eleven, and ultimately, this inspired you to retrain into aerial gunner. Can you tell us about this time in your life and a little bit more about what motivated you to do this?
Anthony:Yeah. So I was home on leave, actually, then I was at a pizza parlor with some friends. This is sometime in 2010. And, you know, we're all we're all sitting there, I look out. You know, I see the same cracks in this this small town road that I've I've seen my whole life.
Anthony:It you know, they've been there their whole life. And, you know, I I realized at that moment that, you know, we can't take anything with us when we when we die. And, like, I feel like I was sitting on the sideline on this whole global war on terror, and I really wanted to to sort of test my mettle and get in a fight. And basically, you know, I decided at that point, like, I don't wanna hold back. I don't wanna leave, you know, cracks.
Anthony:I wanna leave craters. And at that point, I got back to the firehouse, and I'd read a, a book by Dick Couch called Chosen Soldier, and it's about basically the green green beret teams and what they go through for their training, their 12 man teams. And the beginning of that book, it was Isaiah six eight, the the send me verse in the bible. And this is way before the movie Fury made that famous and all that.
Bryan:But Mhmm.
Anthony:It did something to me that day where I was like, you know what? Like, I wanted to I wanted to be the the send me guy. And I was like, there's no better way to to be on you know, get in a fight than a h two one thirty Spectre gunship. And, you know, definitely gave me the opportunity to do that, you know, and I'll talk about it later, but, know, I got to do more in an hour and a half to hour flight from my country than I'd done my whole life at that point. So I look at it.
Advertisement:The global f 35 program bolsters an allied defense industrial base with Canadian components in every jet. With a total program of record of over 3,500 jets across 20 nations, the F-thirty five program is projected to produce over 15,500,000,000.0 Canadian dollars in industrial value for Canada, including current and projected production and sustainment opportunities. Learn more at www.f35.com/canada.
Bryan:When you decided to retrain into aerial gunner, you first had to attend a litany of courses. Can you tell us about these?
Anthony:Yeah. So the first course I took was aircrew fundamentals, and you're and you're learning basic basic flying stuff like, you know, lift, drag, stuff like that, center of gravity. You're learning about flight hours, how many flight hours you can get in, like, a a ninety day period, 30 all that stuff. Yep. Very basic stuff.
Anthony:And then I went to pretty much the same area in the Medina Annex there at, at, Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. And I went into basic aerial gunner, which and that one's a it's a very brief overview of all the weapons you could possibly operate. And, know, you there was anything from the minigun to the, or the Gatu minigun to the GAL eighteen fifty cal to all the way to the one zero five millimeter and the 40 millimeter. And, you learn a little bit of cycle of ops and, like, sort of the two different roles of, you know, of these different platforms, stuff like that. And so very brief.
Anthony:And then right after that, they send you to a steer school, which is, you know, I tell people the best training I've ever had in my life, and I definitely wanna do that again. But that's survival schools up there in in Washington state. Yeah. And, you know, it was it was three weeks of that, and then the water survival back in Pensacola there, Florida Naval Air Station. You know, the the hardest training I ever had definitely was was the Dunker, though.
Anthony:I'll say that. Can you tell us about the Dunker? Yeah. So I actually failed the Dunker the first time, and what it is is, like, they have this this helicopter fuselage, and and they they take you down and they roll it over, and you're you're upside down. And on the last iteration, basically, you're you're getting these smoked out goggles or blacked out goggles, and, you know, you're, I don't know, 10 to 15 feet underwater upside down.
Anthony:This water's rushing through your nose, and you're trying to breathe in what we call a Heeds bottle, and it's basically like a five minute, like a like a scuba bottle, but it's a little one. And for the life of me, I could not find this door handle, man. And like, there was a window handle and like, you know, I had to I felt like I was about to drown, you know, and give the sign, you know, for the steer guy to give me out. And, you know, I did about three or four times. And I don't know, just never quit, but at the same time, like, I knew that was could be the end of like my chance to fly and stuff like that.
Anthony:And so the SEER guy talked to me afterwards. He like, hey, he's like, you're gonna work with this other SEER instructor for a week and we're gonna get you to the point where you know this inside and out, man. And so but he did. He got me so comfortable being uncomfortable. Like, you know, the second time I did that course, I think I was done in, twenty minutes.
Anthony:It was just that guy did a really, really good job of getting me in that getting out of that panic mode and into like, okay, think about what I got for Sega. Get out of here. You know, stuff like that.
Bryan:That's awesome that they were willing and able to take that extra time to invest in you. And, you know, it would have been really easy just be like, alright, this guy can't do it. But they turned around and and helped you make it through. That's awesome.
Anthony:Yeah. Those those guys are I mean, they're incredible what they do. And, you know, so like I said, lot of this is the best training I've ever had, but I don't wanna ever have to repeat it again. But he did you know, and I don't know if it was just a good attitude that goes a long way in the in the aviation world, whatever the case may be. And but they definitely gave me a second chance.
Anthony:I'm to this day very thankful for that guy.
Bryan:Yeah. And and that's true what you said there. Like a good attitude does go a massively long way in the aviation aviation world. Like there are times where honestly people are gonna care more about your your attitude than your hands and feet skills as long as you're competent. Especially in tough situations, that's what's gonna get you through.
Bryan:Right? So it it does matter a huge amount.
Anthony:Yeah. That's you know, I've never thought about this at this moment, but we have this thing in the air force called I don't know if you guys have it called crew resource management. And part of that course is they teach the triangle where, the very you know, the base of this pyramid is is attitude. And then at the top two, the, you know, the triangle's cutting out there is skills and then knowledge. Yep.
Anthony:And basically, if you have the attitude, you know, you can get the skills and and knowledge. Yeah. So it was a I don't know. It's just a little parallel moment there.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. We have a we have CRM and I think we have a a similar, if not identical model as well. I imagine there's a lot of collaboration between the RCAF and the USAF for flight safety and all those types of things. So even flight authorizations and stuff that we've kind of, I think I think borrowed from the American system.
Bryan:Awesome. So after all this training, you finally get to start flight training. Can you tell us about your first flight?
Anthony:Oh, man. My first flight was absolute on the AC one thirty guns, it was a disaster. And, like, what I mean by that, it went so bad, man. We're like, the instructor told me something effective. Like, you're the reason they have to to brief seat belts on airliners.
Anthony:Like, my head was bent. Yeah. So I didn't know where I was at. There's all these commune these comms going off, stuff like that. And, you know, we didn't even, on that one, if I remember, get to, you know, shoot at that point because it was just so bad, you know, and, you know, he saw me lick at my wounds or whatnot, and he asked me the question, like, what what's the most important word in the dictionary?
Anthony:Was I like, man, don't even know where I'm at right now. You know? And he's like, you know, perseverance. And he's like, I want you to think about that word and what it means to you. And you come you come, next flight ready to fight, you know, ready to go.
Anthony:And, you know, we're really good friends to this day. We talk about that moment often, but yeah, I'm glad he told me that. Gave me that that harsh reality and just to, you know, to have tough skin and just to, you know, fall down several times, get up eight, get back in the aircraft.
Bryan:What did you find when you thought about what perseverance meant to you? Like, what what did you find when you dug down for that?
Anthony:Yeah. So I thought about a lot of more is I thought about, you know, my grandfather worked till he was I was like high seventies, almost 80, like a pig farm, you know?
Bryan:Wow.
Anthony:He never complained one time in his life, man. You know? And I just thought about stuff like that. Just that, I guess the the roots part of it, people in Appalachia, just the whatever you do, I'll always put one foot in front of the other, you know, and I'll always persevere. You know, my my grandfather and dad both definitely instilled that in me.
Anthony:And, you know, I couldn't wouldn't be able to live with myself if I'd quit that course. You know what I mean? Like, it's it's not what you do in this life that haunts you, it's what you don't do, you know? Mhmm. I definitely wanted to to do that, you know, to get through this and make it.
Bryan:Yeah. You have to leave it all on the table. In in flight training, you need to be able to walk away with your head held high and not with regret. And basically what that came down to in my mind was you do your best every single day and it'll work out or it won't. You can't control that part.
Bryan:But at least if it doesn't, when you walk away, you won't have a head full of questions and regrets and wondering if you could have if I had done this, if I had worked harder, could I have, you know, could I have passed? That's the last thing you want to walk away with.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. And it boils down to that sort of describing that live a house money life. That's really what I'm getting at there. Like like like, take chances, you know, if you want something, do it.
Anthony:You know? If if it goes wrong, guess what? Get back in the fight, you know? Yep. And like I said in the book, the aircraft takes off against the wind, not with it, you know?
Anthony:Mhmm.
Bryan:So another set of expressions you were given include a favorite of mine, and that is slow is smooth, smooth is fast. However, this one was coupled with a new one to me, which is time is someone's life. So they seem at odds with one another. So how do you square that circle?
Anthony:It yeah. So, slow as smooth, smooth as fast is is what I'm getting at with that part of it is like, there's there's no fast hands in the cockpit. How often have yeah. I've done this a lot where, you know, I'm moving so fast with my hands and whatever the task I'm doing on the aircraft to where I'm not thinking about the you know? And then I end up causing a, you know, a a bigger jam or whatever the case may be, a malfunction or something like that.
Anthony:And then I waste more time than when if I would've just done it right the first time by going a little bit slower, being methodical about it. And, you know, that time could be, you know, that you waste doing it wrong, could be someone's life on the ground. What I'm really getting at here is like, there's these different gun malfunctions. And where an AC one thirty, you know, gunship gunner really makes his his or his or her money would be, you know, weapons analysis, know, malfunction analysis, recognizing what you got, and getting the gun back along as fast as you can. I I know that sounds simple enough, but you could imagine, like, you know, these seals and green braids or something like that getting lit up, you can't figure out what's wrong with your 40 mil.
Anthony:You don't you don't wanna be that guy.
Bryan:So Mhmm.
Anthony:We took a lot of pride in being that weapons expert of the crew and to make the, you know, most methodical safe safest decision we can make.
Bryan:Yeah. I can only imagine the pressure you're under when you know lives are truly on the line. And with the the nature of the work you folks do, which we'll get into, that is the case a lot of the time.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. And that you know, and it's not if it's when you're gonna get a malfunction. It it happens. You know? And I've had everything from the extractors, like, break off on the 40 mil, you know, have to go right to the one zero five.
Anthony:Stuff like that. You just, you know, you learn and you get all these tricks of the trade. And like like I said, repetition. You get you do this so much to where you can do it, you know, blacked out at night, you know, do it in your sleep if you had to.
Bryan:So you learned over time that things were not always a clear cut right and wrong in high pressure situations. Instead, you had to learn to operate in a gray area. Can you tell us more about that?
Anthony:Yeah. So there's a the gray area, like, especially downrange, there's different things. As you know, it's flying. There's warnings, cautions, and notes. And, you know, a warning often, you know, we say it's written in written in red as in someone's blood because either someone got hurt or someone died from from not abiding by that warning.
Anthony:However, there's cautions where, like, cautions, you know, damage could result in damage to equipment. And then basically, like, you know, you're down range. Like, if there's, let's say for the one zero five, there's a firing limitation with that. And, you know, basically, let's say there's some guys getting pinned down and we're shooting hot and heavy with the the one zero five. And basically, with the one zero five, you can shoot, you know, up to 10 rounds per minute, up to a maximum expenditure of 30 rounds.
Anthony:And and then at that point, you have to shoot three rounds per minute until the gun tube cools the ambient temperature. Well, okay, like, you know, my ambient temp temperature may be different than your ambient temperature. So you know what I mean? Like, sort of think like think outside the box here, you know, I put my, you know, let put my wrist to it and, you know, basically, if it wasn't about to cook off, like, you you sort of know that temperature when you feel it, you know? Yeah.
Anthony:And basically, you know, still get those rounds out for those guys and, you know, save lives.
Bryan:Yeah. Like, you know what the book says, but you also know what's going on in real life. And it doesn't make sense to, I'm gonna pay attention to this. I'm gonna listen to this rule every single time no matter what the consequences are. And then maybe the consequence of ignoring the rule is the gun breaks, but the consequence of ignoring the or following the rule could be people die.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. You know, it's it's decisions that you have to make in in those moments.
Anthony:And, you know, I think it's knowing, like, the the black and white limitations of of an aircraft Mhmm. And the systems, and then the actual limitation. And, like, you're you're in that area, you know, in between those spaces.
Bryan:Yeah. Can you quickly just describe for us the different types of guns? Because for folks, like, have a a decent idea when you say the one zero five or the other various weapons you've mentioned, but can you just describe describe them quickly so the listeners can follow along?
Anthony:Yeah. No problem. So so the h model gunship, I'll go back to that one. What was cool about that one was we had telenomers like six nine and seven two, like, the same, you know, skeletal, like, structural of the aircraft is the same ones that flew in Vietnam. And so back then, twenty ten, twenty eleven, we had the 40 mil, Beaufort's cannon and the, one zero five Howitzer, which what I mean by that is the 40 mil Beaufort's is like an antiaircraft navy gun.
Bryan:Yep.
Anthony:So we're hanging it on the side of this, you know, this cargo aircraft, the c one thirty, and then as well as the one zero five, which is like a, you know, a tank cannon, if you will. And, you know, you're putting them both on the side of this aircraft and doing left hand turns all night, and that's sort of where you get the advantage of a gunship is loiter time. You know, we can keep our eyes on the target, you know, padlock everything, and just continuously get rounds out until we winchester, which means you shoot all your ammo. Yep. But yeah.
Anthony:So in in a nutshell, that that that's what we had back then. And and now you have this. It's more like a bomb truck, be honest with you. It's called the AC one thirty j Ghostrider. And so you're looking at your 30 mil Bushmaster cannon up front, and then you're you're now they have the one zero five back on it, as well as some, Griffins, which is, basically airgun missiles in the back and then small diameter bombs on the wings and a and a couple other things.
Anthony:But, yeah, it's it's definitely came a long way. It's a bomb truck, but, you know, at at the end of the day, that in my opinion, is the the one zero five is what makes that thing a gunship. Mhmm.
Bryan:Yeah. And and just to be clear, so the one zero five is basically an artillery gun?
Anthony:It it is. It's howitzer. Right? It's a howitzer. Yeah.
Anthony:So it's a a 45 pound, like, you know, p g 44 round that's about three feet long if you think about it that way.
Bryan:Wow.
Anthony:You know, you're slinging what's a beautiful thing to see is when we get the 10 rounds from an hour or more, like, sometimes we have, like, three guys on the right, three gunners, three or four. And by the time you're kicking one out of the breech, the other guy's already loading it and you're closing it, slaving the armament and boom, you know. Yeah. You know, you could imagine a few of those things in the air at one time coming down and, you know, raining on the enemy.
Bryan:So now that we've talked a bit about some of the armament you guys were dealing with, can we, talk about your job as an aerial gunner? What does that job consist of?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. So you're you're primarily loading back then, was just the one the one job, the one alpha seven AFSC air gunner, to be the weapons expert to load to load the, the guns with the munitions, the the 40 mil clips and the one zero five forty five, you know, pound rounds. And then also that weapon analysis, getting those guns back online. So when we think, you know, trigger, back then we had enlisted sensor operators, which one was a IR and one was a TV operator.
Anthony:Basically, they're the ones that we would consider like a traditional, like, trigger. With that being said, there is like a, you know, an arm safe, basically a consent switch for, you know, almost every crew position to where you could take the gun away at a moment's notice. It takes all these different consent switches and, and then the then the aircraft commanders call at the end, basically, you know, master arm on and then, you know, gun goes boom at that point.
Bryan:Okay. So basically, anyone at any time when the crew can say like, I see something we shouldn't be shooting right now. Boom. They hit the switch and it disables it.
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. And and how that would sound would be like, cease fire, cease fire, and then someone would you know, whoever recognized what was, know, terribly wrong would Yeah. Would save it.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. What is it like the first time you load and fire an artillery gun in the air? Can you tell us about that experience?
Anthony:Yeah. I'll never forget that moment. You know, the the pilot whips this perfect, like, three nautical mile orbit called the the pilot and turn is what it's referred as. And, you know, this very tight circle where the pilots meet in the rate and coincidence and, you you know, the guns in the trainable box where we're not we're at a good depression angle where we could shoot. And as the gun recoils, you know, up to 49 inches, and I remember this, the aircraft, you know, sort of, you know, shifting like 10 degrees or something like that.
Anthony:And I just remember like, man, this this is what I wanna do for the rest of my life. You know? Like like, even in training at that moment, I was like, this is this is the coolest job in my opinion in the air forces. You know? Like, you know, back then there was movies like transformer where it's really not accurate in my opinion where Tyrese says, you know, Tyrese says, make it rain.
Bryan:Yeah.
Anthony:Yeah. I got to to do the real thing, you know, and this is before Modern Warfare and all that stuff. Loved every second of it.
Bryan:Yeah. And that's you said a three nautical mile turn?
Anthony:Yeah. I mean, you know, it's just a
Bryan:That's a pretty tight turn. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really that's what you
Anthony:call an overhead. Like, you know, the guys the JTACs will call you in. Like, you know, usually, you're you're not showing your your your hand yet. Like, you'll be off where your noise signature isn't isn't there where they can recognize it. Right.
Anthony:Because if they can't hear it, the enemy can't hear it. And then, you know, usually, like, let's say they're doing a raid like a breach. Right? Like, they'll breach the door, then these guys will start running out the back, and then they'll be like, know, spectral six, when you're clearing your overhead, and, you know, you're doing a three mile orbit to get your eyes on these these guys running away the enemy. And, you know, it's it's sort of a beautiful thing.
Anthony:Know, I was to say it, but you never get used to that, man, that, you know, when they call you in overhead and they give you clear to engage and the enemy hears your props, like they at that point, they run like bees, man. They they know it's over, you know. Yeah.
Bryan:Well, the the Herc has such a distinctive engine sound as well. Right? So they they know when it's a when it's a gunship.
Anthony:Yeah. We would all we would always joke with, like, the regular c one thirty. It's like not a dig against them. We'd be like, hey. Yeah.
Anthony:If you guys ever getting shot at, you know, just start doing left hand turns and you'll be alright. You know? Stuff like that.
Bryan:Yeah. That's funny. So you received your aerial gunner wings in December 2010. What was that moment like for you?
Anthony:Yeah. So there there was a they lined us all up wearing blues, and and at this point, I haven't even been on an aircraft. It was, you know, basically just a basic aerial gunner course. And there was a old 53 gunner that was our instructor, and he's a really super good dude. And, basically, they put your wings on your your left, you know, your chest there, and they give you a little punch, you know, and not nothing too bad like, you know, like some guys do, but, you know, your blood wings or whatnot.
Anthony:And then, you know, I remember the last thing he said to me was like, you know, dire, give them hell. You know, like, basically, like like, do good. Mhmm. You know? And I was like, man, this is the hands down the, you know, the coolest coolest job in the world.
Bryan:So did they actually blood wing you guys?
Anthony:It it wasn't like like, he didn't tee off and hit me, but he hit it hard enough to where he'd leave too little, you know, too little red blood marks on it. You know what mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like barely in there.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And our list any listeners who are curious can look up what that is. So let's talk.
Bryan:We're gonna get into your beginning of your operational your operational life, your your baptism of fire. You were now part of Air Force Special Operation Command or AFSOC in the sixteenth Special Operations Squadron. What did this mean to you?
Anthony:Yeah. So the, basically, it meant I I was a part of the, you know, the close air support for for our nation's best, you know. And what I mean by that is providing close air support for the unconventional forces, your your green braves, your navy seals, your rangers. You know? And the whole reason for being is is to make sure those those guys get home to their family.
Anthony:And I remember there's this letter in the sixteenth. I I used to look at it almost every day, and there's this ranger holding his baby girl, it says something to the effect of like, you know, thank you to the specter in the gunship, you know, because of you guys. I had to go home and see my baby girl. To me, that that was my always my why. My my reason for being all those years was to get those guys home.
Anthony:Mhmm.
Bryan:So we've talked about the armament on the AC one thirty Spectre gunship, which just in case listeners aren't somehow aware is probably one of the most legendary aircraft of all time. What is the role of the Spectre gunship?
Anthony:Yeah. So the role the role, I guess, sort of mission statement would be to provide a timely and precise close air support for our nation's unconventional forces. And, you know, what I'm getting at there is, again, with the, you know, your SEALs, your Green Braves, your Rangers. Every now and then, we would do a a conventional shoot with, the eighty second or something like that. But but, yeah, the the role is
Bryan:to to give those guys rounds out exactly when they need it. And I think you also mentioned in the book that you guys do some intelligence surveillance reconnaissance work from time to time. Is that right?
Anthony:Yeah. And that and that that's a lot of it. Like, you know, but, basically, that's you're owning this eight hour orbit. Think about it like that. Like, you'll, you know, get hit a tanker midway, but, like, a lot of times when nothing's going on, you're you're keeping your eyes on the you know, is this normal pattern of life for this village?
Anthony:Or it's like, is this guy is this guy moving tactically? Is is this nefarious? You know? So you're painting that picture for the JTAC who can't see directly on the site with or the team that has directly on the side of what what's going on in the village. They're they're about to breach that door.
Anthony:Right? So Sort of painting that picture beforehand.
Bryan:And you mentioned even that in your early days, you flew sorties in Afghanistan where you didn't fire a shot. Right?
Anthony:Yeah. I I I remember some sorties, like, even we're talking about prop noise earlier. Like, submarines were like, they're they told me later. But, basically, they got to get some sleep, you know, because of the just the prop noises we were talking about. And, you know, it means a lot to those guys just to get a couple hours.
Anthony:Like, you can hear it in their voice. Mhmm.
Bryan:It must mean a lot to you folks in the air to know that your presence is giving them that peace and that these guys who are really living a hard life can have a some safety and and shut their eyes.
Anthony:Yeah. A 100%. You know? And if it was if it was us flying for for four hours or eight hours just to just to give those guys some shout out, we we'd do that often. You know?
Anthony:And
Bryan:Yeah. It was all part of it. So acceptance in the sixteenth special operations squadron comes from your first operational shoot. It's a rite of passage. Can you tell us about your first operational shoot?
Anthony:Yeah. So we were, we landed from one operation, and it was again, it was one of those ones where we'd shot just the tweak rounds. We'll we'll call it that. And, basically, what that means is, you know, when you line your sights up on a m four or whatever case may be, you're you have to spend a few rounds to, to line your sights up. Right?
Anthony:And we do the same thing with the gunship, you know, and I was loading the, the few rounds we'd shot in the one zero five before that operation, which we had done nothing. And then, you know, we came back and landed. I was uploading those rounds back and the pilot, he came back to the, the gun deck. And it was it was very weird because we don't fly it in a day. Hardly ever has to get waivers and stuff like that.
Anthony:And it was what we call pinky time. So the summit's coming up. And he's like, hey, guys, there's a, you know, a green braid team that's that's pinned down. I believe it was Northeastern Afghanistan, somewhere there. And, he's like, you know, who who's with me?
Anthony:And we all on our own, you know, version set, our version of send me. And, you know, next thing you know, hour and a half, we're over this op area, like, maybe an hour or something like that. But I looked down and I'm looking out the there's these two old 20 mil ports where the H model had 20 mils on during Vietnam and stuff like that. These square windows and I'm on a bean bag. And I'm looking down and I had a, basically a monocle, you know, MEG type looking out.
Anthony:And at this point, sun's coming up and I was like, okay, this is pretty much worthless now. And, you know, so I see these bright flashes, these RPGs, two of them. Boom. Boom. And what it was was there was, ended up being three Taliban guys who, had explosive packs on and they were shooting RPGs at the green berets and amongst other, other missions, stuff like that.
Anthony:And, you know, and at that point, like you can hear the intensity in the combat controller's voice and J tag, know, you're, cleared to engage 40 mils. I get back and, know, we shot about 60 something rounds and, you know, you see secondaries, all that stuff later. But, yeah, you know, lit those three guys up. And I remember thinking like, man, I got to do, you know, more for my country in an hour and a half than I've done my whole life.
Bryan:Yeah. And when you say secondaries, you mean secondary explosions. Right? Which just in case listeners aren't aware, is like when you shoot, there's the explosion from the round with and a secondary would be like, let's say the guy's explosive vest exploding as a result of that or something like that.
Anthony:Exactly. Yeah. And they had those packs on him. We hit him with the, the high explosive incendiary rounds, so he just, you know, burned to a crisp after the secondaries. And Yeah.
Anthony:You know, you do the debrief and stuff later and you see all that. But but, yeah, you know, it it was all about really not really taking those lives, but as cliche as it is, it's about, you know, making sure Mhmm. That our guys get home. Right? And, you know, that I remember thinking like that, Like, as far as sense of relevance and my sense of purpose and identity, man, like, this is like what I wanna do for the rest of my life.
Anthony:I wanted to fly, you know, and and do these very uncommon, unconventional things in this gunship. What did it
Bryan:feel like in that moment to pull the trigger, so to speak, and know that you were about to take a human life? Because that's a line you can never uncross. Right?
Anthony:Yeah. And it was one of those things in the in the very brief moment before my lead gun, I never forget sort of the the look and smile, know, like, hey. Something to effect, like, your your life's gonna change forever after this moment. Like, this is it, man. You know, you're you're gonna do it.
Anthony:Right? And I was like, yeah, you know. So I get him to 40 and, you know, I remember just one of those first few rounds came out and it was just like it was like being baptized by fire, I suppose. Light's good way to put it and just born again, man, in close air support, you know, in Spectre fashion. And Mhmm.
Anthony:You know, back then I got back and there were they do this thing where they shave your head when you got back sort of like a to symbolize the re you know, to rebirth. Right? And, know, basically realize you got your first, you know, enemy killed in action. And but, yeah, it was all part of it, man. I like I said, it it was the best job I ever had, man.
Anthony:It just that moment changed my life forever.
Bryan:Yeah. As the dust settled, how did you feel afterward knowing what you'd done?
Anthony:So there was a lot of adrenaline. I remember that night, like, still, you know, and you learn during the moment to sort of like suppress it and like just, you know, take a deep breath and get through it. Right? But like, when it does settles, I just remember I was the adrenaline was like almost calm, but I was still wide awake. You know, I was exhausted feeling almost.
Anthony:And, you know, I'm just laying there thinking like, you know, man, I got to do like, this is awesome. You know, like, how many people get to do this? Right? Like, this is the best job in the world. I remember thinking that.
Anthony:But yeah, I couldn't sleep at
Bryan:all that night. Yeah. I don't doubt that. Yeah.
Anthony:Yeah.
Bryan:Alright. So we're getting ready to wrap up part one here. Before we do, we're gonna take the time to ask you the three questions we always ask our guests. What is the one thing you always did to try to stay ready to do your job or still do with your current job?
Anthony:Yeah. So back then, there was a I talked about it in the book there, but there's this part in the old where we were at in the old sixteen special operations squadron where you walk through the doors to the flight line to go to your aircraft to preflight it and fly in. It says, we who walk through these portals stand tall. And like, no matter what I had going on in my life at that moment, man, it was to me, it was more important than like the Notre Dame sign they all hit before the football field goes you know, the football team goes out and says play like a champion. And it was in that moment, like, no matter what I had going on in my life, I'd I'd take a second.
Anthony:I'd say, everything's gonna be fine. Like, God's got it. Our team's got it. Everything's gonna be good. Just clear my head and just aviate.
Anthony:Mhmm.
Bryan:Yeah. It's so important to go into your mission, whether that's a training flight or an operational flight, whatever it may be, with a clear head, focused, ready, and just knowing like, okay, this is what matters right now. Like, whatever else is going on, I'm gonna leave that behind me for the next hour, two hours, eight hours, however long your your sortie is. And you just have to be absolutely focused. In in mission based aviation, in all aviation, but especially in mission based aviation, you have to have that focus.
Anthony:A 100%. Yeah. Situational awareness, that's the most powerful thing on a battlefield in my opinion, whether you're on the ground in the area, it'll keep you you and your guys alive. You know?
Bryan:Yep. Yep. Absolutely. What do you think makes a great missions based aviator?
Anthony:I would say definitely somebody who's probably more type of a, I would say. And then also at the same time, you there's a some humbleness that happens with it, and you have to be able to recognize your I'd say the main thing is recognize your your strength, but it's more important to know your weaknesses and work on those weaknesses. Mhmm. You know? Because when your training folder's getting filled out and there's proficiency and knowledge part of that, I don't know how you guys do it up there, but there's that era, you know, and you can sort of see your weaknesses and and study those and just if you fall down and get back up, man, and you're gonna take a beating because there's, you know, there's some things they can't simulate and they're they're in combat on the aircraft.
Anthony:Right? But, like, it's for all for a reason. It's to to be a better aviator.
Bryan:Mhmm. And it's uncomfortable too. Right? Like, looking at the areas you're not strong in is not for not everybody anyways, is not a comfortable feeling to focus in on, like, where did I mess up? Where do I need to improve?
Bryan:But you can embrace that and grow comfort with it, and you'll just be so much better for it.
Anthony:A 100%. Yeah. And that repetition and just just face that face that weakness and just just work on it. You know?
Bryan:Yeah. If someone approached you today saying they wanted to be aircrew in the USAF, what advice would you give them? And maybe especially if they wanted to be an aerial gunner.
Anthony:I would say, you know, ask yourself if if if you're ready for that ops tempo and, you know, if if you're ready if you really wanna do that. You know, it's it's if you have any doubts or whatever the case may be, just, you know, then don't do it, you know, because it's something you definitely have to be a 100%, like, in your you have to your heart has to be in this, your heart, mind, and soul. Mhmm. You know? And and those type of missions.
Anthony:And when you're exhausted, tired, and you don't you're on your, you know, fourteenth flight in a row in Afghanistan, like, you know, that that's when your your your willpower and your desire to be the combat aviator kicks in.
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. And when you are exhausted and you have to pay attention to all the mundane, it's not just the exciting stuff. Right? It's all those little things and checklists and stuff that keep everybody safe.
Bryan:And you gotta be able to put as much detail and effort and energy into, like you said, that fourteenth flight as you did that first flight when you were super psyched and it was your your first trip over Afghanistan or whatever.
Anthony:Oh, yeah. And and you have to realize that that it's that it's always not like this this glory. You know? It's always
Bryan:Mhmm.
Anthony:You know, fire not always fire and brim. So it's you know, there is, like you said, a lot of nights where it's just, you know, you're but I get I get it now that these are very these are jobs that were like, if we're working, someone's having a bad day or possibly even their worst day. And, like, these jobs are something you never really wanna have to do. Right? Like, I get that now.
Anthony:But, like Mhmm. At the same time, you know, if some one of those guys' backs against the wall numbers caught it, that gunship's coming, man. Like and that's I wanted to be that type of aviator. You know? Yeah.
Anthony:Yeah.
Bryan:Absolutely. So as we finish up this episode, can you let listeners know where they can contact you for speaking engagements, collaborations, and the best place to buy your book?
Anthony:Yeah. Yeah. For no no problem. Speaking of collaborations, the email is @anthonyp.dyeratgmail.com. And the the best place to buy my book is if you can find it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, wherever they sell books.
Anthony:And also Trademarker Media has a
Bryan:a link I can send you as well. Awesome. And and Dyer, for listeners, is spelled d y e r. Okay, Anthony, that's gonna wrap up part one of our chat for today. Thank you so much for sharing both your early days at home and in the Youssef with us and also for that really interesting description of kind of your first baptism of fire.
Bryan:I'm really, really excited to hear more about your operational life and the ups and downs of that. So thank you again for being here today.
Anthony:Thanks for having me.
Bryan:Okay. That wraps up part one of our chat with Anthony Dyer, retired US Air Force aerial gunner. Check us out next week for part two of our chat where we will go through Anthony's time in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as his time after release and some of the challenges he faced. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and mission aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.
Advertisement:As an F-thirty five partner, Canadian companies have access to global supply chain opportunities, enhancing workforce skills and securing long term industrial benefits in design, production and maintenance. Each F-thirty five produced contains more than 3,200,000.0 Canadian dollars of Canadian content today, including the Canada made horizontal tail in Winnipeg, the engine sensor in Ottawa, and stealth panels made of composite materials in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia. Learn more at www.f35.com/canada.
